Do infants dying in infancy go to heaven or not?

[BobRyan]

You could try adding quote marks like this.

KJV: Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus "Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." 43 And Jesus said unto him " Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

I thought I used quote marks

for example #30

==============
The actual author of scripture put no punctuation in it. Men came along centuries later and inserted punctuation in line with their own bias for the sake of the reader.


But it is clear from the fact that on resurrection Sunday - Jesus said "I have not yet ascended to the Father" John 20:17 NASB
-- that His answer to the thief on the cross was in perfect context with the request

See Luke 23:42 "Remember me WHEN you come into your Kingdom" NASB

Christ's response "surely I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise" NASB

=====================

The problem is not that I do not use quote marks - the problem is that the various translations have decided to insert commas in a way that fits a certain bias. Removing those commas does not help to preserve the bias. I agree with you that the meaning would change depending on which comma use one employs.

 

[BobRyan]

I answered that already in the post that you quoted when I wrote : The argument here is that the presence of death among human beings between the creation and the giving of the Law is proof that sin was present in humanity even though there was no law to break, the reasoning hinges on defining sin as lawbreaking and that is what saint Paul is doing. He says, "Lawbreaking entered the world, and death came through Lawbreaking, and so death spread to all men, because all were Lawbreakers - for until the Law Lawbreaking was in the world,"

"sin IS transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4

Taking God's name in vain was always a sin.

The Catholic Church in the document "Dies Domini" states that the TEN Commandments apply to all mankind and are written on the heart under the New Covenant.

 

[BobRyan]

You could try adding quote marks like this.

KJV: Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus "Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." 43 And Jesus said unto him " Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Ok so then --

But it is clear from the fact that on resurrection Sunday - Jesus said "I have not yet ascended to the Father" John 20:17 -- so we see that His answer to the thief on the cross was in perfect context with the request in Luke23:42 "Remember me WHEN you come into your Kingdom"

Christ's response "surely I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise" Luke 23:43

as in this post

...The actual author of scripture put no punctuation in it. Men came along centuries later and inserted punctuation in line with their own bias for the sake of the reader.

But it is clear from the fact that on resurrection Sunday - Jesus said "I have not yet ascended to the Father" John 20:17 -- that His answer to the thief on the cross was in perfect context with the request in Luke "Remember me WHEN you come into your Kingdom"

Christ's response "surely I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise"

================

Also fits with 2 Tim 4:
2 Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

also fits with 1 Thess 4:13-18

Also fits with 1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

Also fits completely with Christ's teaching in John 14:1-3

 

[Clare73]

I answered that already in the post that you quoted when I wrote : The argument here is that the presence of death among human beings between the creation and the giving of the Law is proof that sin was present in humanity even though there was no law to break, the reasoning hinges on defining sin as lawbreaking

Actually, the Greek reads:

"Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man and death through sin, so death spread to all men because all sinned."
The dilemma" presented in the text, and which you are not addressing, is
1) death is caused by (the wages of) sin (Ro 6:23),
2) where there is no law, there is no sin (Ro 4:15),
3) there was no law between Adam and Moses, yet all died,
4) of what sin did they die?

I answered that already in the post that you quoted when I wrote : The argument here is that the presence of death among human beings between the creation and the giving of the Law is proof that sin was present in humanity even though there was no law to break, the reasoning hinges on defining sin as lawbreaking and that is what saint Paul is doing. He says, "Lawbreaking entered the world, and death came through Lawbreaking, and so death spread to all men, because all were Lawbreakers - for until the Law Lawbreaking was in the world,"
And the quote tells you the start time, it is from the fall until the Law.

Yes, the guilt (sin) of law-breaking was in the world before the Law because the sin of Adam (law-breaking) was imputed to those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16), just as the righteousness of Christ is imputed (Ro 5:18-19, 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21) to those of Christ.

and that is what saint Paul is doing. He says, "Lawbreaking entered the world, and death came through Lawbreaking, and so death spread to all men, because all were Lawbreakers - for until the Law Lawbreaking was in the world,"

Yes, the "lawbreaking" that was in the world was the guilt of Adam's law-breaking imputed to all mankind (Ro 5:17, 12-16).

And the quote tells you the start time, it is from the fall until the Law.

Yes, the guilt of Adam's law-breaking is imputed to those of Adam (Ro 5:17) since the fall, and is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ being imputed to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[Clare73]

I don't see it that way.
What I do see is that a curse has been lifted during Ezec's time that you want to reinstitute.

That I agree with, but I don't agree that Adam and Eve's sins were charged to our account.

Then you are in disagreement with Ro 5:17, 12-16.

"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man (Ro 5:17), beginning with that one man, Adam.

And that is why all men died between Adam and Moses when there was no law by which to charge sin against them and cause their deaths.

 

[Hoping2]

Then you are in disagreement with Ro 5:17, 12-16.

"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man (Ro 5:17), beginning with that one man, Adam.

And that is why all men died between Adam and Moses when there was no law by which to charge sin against them and cause their deaths.

I am not in disagreement with Rom 5:17.
I am, however, in disagreement with your misinterpretation of it.
"Death" reigned, not sin.
Can you see any difference between "death" and "sin" ?

 

[Clare73]

I am not in disagreement with Rom 5:17.
I am, however, in disagreement with your misinterpretation of it.
"Death" reigned, not sin.
Can you see any difference between "death" and "sin" ?

Are you not aware that sin is the cause of death (Ro 6:23), that where there is no sin there is no necessary death?

It is God who has linked sin to death.

 

[Hoping2]

Are you not aware that sin is the cause of death (Ro 6:23), that where there is no sin there is no necessary death?

It is God who has linked sin to death.

It is written...."Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Rom 5:14)
Adam brought death.
Man commits his own sins.
Unrepented of sins will bode a second death.

 

[Clare73]

It is written...."Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Rom 5:14)
Adam brought death.
Man commits his own sins.
Unrepented of sins will bode a second death.

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).

All died between Adam and Moses when there was no command/law of God for them to disobey/sin.

So what sin caused their deaths?

"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man (Ro 5:17), beginning with that one man, Adam.

"Death reigned through that one man" through imputation of his sin to all those of that man, Adam (Ro 5:17), just as eternal life reigns through one man through imputation of his righteousness to all those of that man, Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21).

 

[Hoping2]

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).

Yes, it is.
Death is the result of Adam and Eve's sin.
Had they not sinned, there would be no death.

All died between Adam and Moses when there was no command/law of God for them to disobey/sin.
So what sin caused their deaths?
"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man (Ro 5:17), beginning with that one man, Adam.

As you cited, Adam, and Eve's, sin caused their deaths.

"Death reigned through that one man" through imputation of his sin to all those of that man, Adam (Ro 5:17), just as eternal life reigns through one man through imputation of his righteousness to all those of that man, Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21).

You're being a bit dishonest by adding the word 'imputed' to Rom 5:17.
It is not there !
I used "biblegateway.com" to look for mentions of "imputed sin".
There was one citing..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
That citing says sins were NOT imputed !

So, you are trying to get me to believe that even though Adam and Eve's sin was NOT imputed for a couple of thousand of years before the Law, suddenly it started to be imputed ?
Those people all died, though, showing that what Adam and Eve ushered into the world was death.
The condemnation of babies for Adam and Eve's sin, is unbiblical.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, it is.
Death is the result of Adam and Eve's sin.
Had they not sinned, there would be no death.

As you cited, Adam, and Eve's, sin caused their deaths.

Not only their own deaths, but the deaths of all mankind.

You're being a bit dishonest by adding the word 'imputed' to Rom 5:17.
It is not there !

Ro 5:17 is the definition of impute: to charge to one's account.
"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man" (that trespass being charged to the account of every man is imputation).

Ro 5:18: the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men (Adam's sin is imputed, charged to all those of Adam),
Ro 5:19: through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners (Adam's sin is imputed, charged to all those of Adam),
just as Christ's righteousness is imputed, charged to all those of Christ (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 5:18-19, 2 Co 5:21).

I used "biblegateway.com" to look for mentions of "imputed sin".
There was one citing..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
That citing says sins were NOT imputed !

Indeed, no personal sin was imputed to those between Adam and Moses because there was no law by which to charge them with sin.
And yet, they all died between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:12-14).
Of what sin did they die when there was no law by which to charge them with sin?

So, you are trying to get me to believe that even though Adam and Eve's sin was NOT imputed for a couple of thousand of years before the Law, suddenly it started to be imputed ?

No, between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against by which to charge them with sin,
they all died because Adam's sin is imputed.

Eve's sin is not imputed, Adam's sin is imputed.

Those people all died, though, showing that what Adam and Eve ushered into the world was death.
The condemnation of babies for Adam and Eve's sin, is unBiiblical.

Not according to Ro 5:17, 12-16, where Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind at birth, which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law by which to charge anyone with sin.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Nt only their own deaths, but the deaths of all mankind.

Think of death as an inherited acquired characteristic, like in Landmark's 'evolution'

 

[Hoping2]

Not only their own deaths, but the deaths of all mankind.

Ro 5:17 is the definition of impute: to charge to one's account.
"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man" (that trespass being charged to the account of every man is imputation).

Ro 5:18: the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men (Adam's sin is imputed, charged to all those of Adam),
Ro 5:19: through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners (Adam's sin is imputed, charged to all those of Adam),
just as Christ's righteousness is imputed, charged to all those of Christ (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 5:18-19, 2 Co 5:21).


Indeed, no personal sin was imputed to those between Adam and Moses because there was no law by which to charge them with sin.
And yet, they all died between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:12-14).
Of what sin did they die when there was no law by which to charge them with sin?

No, between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against by which to charge them with sin,
they all died because Adam's sin is imputed.

Eve's sin is not imputed, Adam's sin is imputed.

Not according to Ro 5:17, 12-16, where Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind at birth, which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law by which to charge anyone with sin.

We will not agree on this topic.
I won't condemn the innocent, as the OP wanted to know.

 

[Kathleen30]

Firstly Depending on if humanity has a tripartite being . If not then they await in the grave for the resurrection like the rest of us. If tripartite. Then when thinking upon the billions of babies who never saw life past the womb throughout history and gaining automatic entry to heaven. One could argue then why allow your children to be born at all with the possibility of them not choosing Christ as a fully grown adult if access is gained in not getting past womb. We all like to think they do. But It be for God to decide the matter.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I won't condemn the innocent, as the OP wanted to know.

agreed.

 

[Clare73]

We will not agree on this topic.
I won't condemn the innocent, as the OP wanted to know.

No one is innocent.

Adam's sin is imputed to all (Ro 5:17), which is why all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against to cause their deaths. . .and which imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21).

They died between Adam and Moses because of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No one is innocent.

Adam's sin is imputed to all (Ro 5:17), which is why all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against to cause their deaths. . .and which imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21).

They died between Adam and Moses because of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17).

That isn't said in Romans 5:17. Nowhere does it say sin is imputed. It asserts that death is inherited.

 

[trophy33]

No one is innocent.

Adam's sin is imputed to all (Ro 5:17), which is why all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against to cause their deaths. . .and which imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21).

They died between Adam and Moses because of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17).

Why do animals die, then? Why don't angels who sin die?

It seems that we die just because our body is physical and ages (accumulates damage) or can fall ill (viral/antibacterial infections) or can be mechanically injured or deprived of necessary elements (food, water...).

Physical body that is immortal would lead to logical absurdities.

 

[Clare73]

That isn't said in Romans 5:17. Nowhere does it say sin is imputed. It asserts that death is inherited.

Then you don't understand Ro 5:12-14. . .and that's above my pay grade.

See post #49.

 

[Clare73]

Why do animals die, then? Why don't angels who sin die?

Angels, as well as the spirit of man, are immortal.

All physical death in creation is caused by the sin of Adam.