Do infants dying in infancy go to heaven or not?

[BobRyan]

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise Luke 23:42-43

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise Luke 23:42-43

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise Luke 23:42-43

Why did you change the punctuation? The KJV says:

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

And the NKJV says:

Luke 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."​

 

[Clare73]

Ok, thanks for the info. However, if the children are set apart and die suddenly wouldn't they go to heaven?

All of us by nature are objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

"Set apart" there means they, while children, enjoy the earthy benefits of believing parents.

 

[Clare73]

It is written in Ezek 18:20..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Precisely. . .sin is not inherited (Eze 18:20), sin is imputed (Ro 5:17), it is the imputed sin of Adam which caused all those to die between Adam and Moses when there was no law with death penalty to sin against and cause their deaths (Ro 5:12-16).

Babies cannot commit sin.
And nobody else's sins can be imputed unto them.

Ro 5:17 disagrees with you. Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind.

 

[Zceptre]

I feel lead to add and clarify some details to my last post. I think they are very relevant for a clear picture if someone is not familiar with this phenomenon.

The NDE accounts with babies in Heaven are often aborted children and miscarriages. Many times the NDE person comes back knowing someone miscarried a child and knows the name that was given to them by the parents (the parents usually had not disclosed the miscarriage to others), and there are a large number of accounts of women who regretted having an abortion (seen these more often) who repented and accepted Jesus Christ that had a NDE and seen their child in Heaven. Like I said, there is an exhaustive list of these and there are new ones every day. Lots of people who have had NDE accounts often do not share until they learn (years later in a number of cases) that there is a large community and a high number of people sharing them, that it is commonplace these days, and they finally tell their experience that they have been keeping secret for many years.

 

[Hoping2]

Precisely. . .sin is not inherited, sin is imputed (Ro 5:17), it is the imputed sin of Adam which caused all those to die between Adam and Moses when there was no law with death penalty to sin against and cause their deaths (Ro 5:12-16).

The word game that makes distinctions between inherit and imputed, fall apart with Rom 5:13..." (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
No Law, no sin at all !

Ro 5:17 disagrees with you. Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind.

Man will only be judged for his own sins.
Not for his family's sins, and not for Adam's sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Why did you change the punctuation?

There is no punctuation in the Greek text until 100's of years after the NT.

The request shows "When" the event would happen.

"Remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom"
Matt 6 "Thy kingdom come Thy will be done"

Luke 23:42 (NASB) And he was saying “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him “Truly I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in Paradise.” (NASB without punctuation)


At Jesus' resurrection He said He had not yet been to the Father.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There is no punctuation in the Greek text until 100's of years after the NT.

The quote was not Greek, it was English.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I feel lead to add and clarify some details to my last post. I think they are very relevant for a clear picture if someone is not familiar with this phenomenon.

The NDE accounts with babies in Heaven are often aborted children and miscarriages. Many times the NDE person comes back knowing someone miscarried a child and knows the name that was given to them by the parents (the parents usually had not disclosed the miscarriage to others), and there are a large number of accounts of women who regretted having an abortion (seen these more often) who repented and accepted Jesus Christ that had a NDE and seen their child in Heaven. Like I said, there is an exhaustive list of these and there are new ones every day. Lots of people who have had NDE accounts often do not share until they learn (years later in a number of cases) that there is a large community and a high number of people sharing them, that it is commonplace these days, and they finally tell their experience that they have been keeping secret for many years.

That's "word of mouth" testimony isn't it? It isn't accepted in court, where it is called hear-say evidence.

 

[BobRyan]

The quote was not Greek, it was English.

Which came centuries after it was written.

The actual author of scripture put no punctuation in it. Men came along centuries later and inserted punctuation in line with their own bias for the sake of the reader.

But it is clear from the fact that on resurrection Sunday - Jesus said "I have not yet ascended to the Father" John 20:17 -- that His answer to the thief on the cross was in perfect context with the request in Luke23:42 "Remember me WHEN you come into your Kingdom"

Christ's response "surely I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise" Luke 23:43

================

Also fits with 2 Tim 4:
2 Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

also fits with 1 Thess 4:13-18

Also fits with 1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

Also fits completely with Christ's teaching in John 14:1-3

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The actual author of scripture put no punctuation in it.

Then read it without punctuation.

 

[Clare73]

The word game that makes distinctions between inherit and imputed, fall apart with Rom 5:13..." (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

You are setting Scripture of Eze 18:20 against itself in Ro 5:17-19. . .

To impute is "to charge to one's account."
God imputes our own sin to us.

But between Adam and Moses there was no law by which to impute sin to men (the cause of their death, Ro 6:23), and yet they all died anyway.
How did that work? What sin caused their deaths?
God imputed Adam's sin to them (Ro 5:17, 12-14).

The sin from which they died was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-14), and which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

God's word reveals that the father Adam's sin is not inherited (Eze 18:20), it is imputed in (Ro 5:12-17).

No Law, no sin at all !

Correct. . .no personal sin is imputed to anyone where there is no law, because there is no law for one to sin against.

But Adam's sin is imputed (Ro 5:17), which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law by which to charge them with sin.

You are not taking into account God's word in Ro 5:12-17, where Adam's sin is imputed to all those of Adam
(which was the sin which caused the deaths of all those between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against),
just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Man will only be judged for his own sins.
Not for his family's sins, and not for Adam's sin.

Fails to deal with the word of God in Ro 5:12-17, and the paralleling of the imputed sin of Adam to all those of Adam with the imputed righteousness of Christ to all those of Christ in Ro 5:18-19.

 

[BobRyan]

Then read it without punctuation.

agreed. I have been posting it without punctuation

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Fails to deal with the word of God in Ro 5:12-17, and the paralleling of the imputed sin of Adam to all those of Adam with the imputed righteousness of Christ to all those of Christ in Ro 5:18-19.

That passage says that death is what came into the world through sin. It doesn't say guilt came into the world that way.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world,​

The argument here is that the presence of death among human beings between the creation and the giving of the Law is proof that sin was present in humanity even though there was no law to break, the reasoning hinges on defining sin as lawbreaking and that is what saint Paul is doing. He says, "Lawbreaking entered the world, and death came through Lawbreaking, and so death spread to all men, because all were Lawbreakers - for until the Law Lawbreaking was in the world,"​

but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the trespass of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgement arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were appointed sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be appointed righteous. Now the Law came in so that the transgression would increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Romans 5:12-21 LSB

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

agreed. I have been posting it without punctuation

You could try adding quote marks like this.

KJV: Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus "Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." 43 And Jesus said unto him " Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

 

[Clare73]

That passage says that death is what came into the world through sin. It doesn't say guilt came into the world that way.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world,​

The argument here is that the presence of death among human beings between the creation and the giving of the Law is proof that sin was present in humanity even though there was no law to break, the reasoning hinges on defining sin as lawbreaking and that is what saint Paul is doing. He says, "Lawbreaking entered the world, and death came through Lawbreaking, and so death spread to all men, because all were Lawbreakers - for until the Law Lawbreaking was in the world,"​

but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the trespass of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgement arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were appointed sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be appointed righteous. Now the Law came in so that the transgression would increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Romans 5:12-21 LSB

What sin caused their deaths when there was no law to sin against?

 

[Lukaris]

I believe the account of St. Aristides from about 125 AD testified that the early Christians believed in the innocence of little children in general. He probably did not know much of the Bible as a Roman keeping tabs on Christians for an emperor but he was of reasonable intelligence. The witness of these Christians led to his becoming Christian and I can only think that for these early Christians “suffer little children” ( Matthew 19:13-15, KJV) was self evident. I brought this up in post #8.

KJV:

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 19:13-15 - King James Version

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Zceptre]

That's "word of mouth" testimony isn't it? It isn't accepted in court, where it is called hear-say evidence.

Yes it is, and when it falls in line with scripture I believe it. (1 Corinthians 13:7)

Doubt is the Devils game, and it is easy to cast it in any direction. Much harder to align with God's Word and comfort those who are seeking evidence for the truth of reality in scripture and in people's lives. God is the God of the living, not the dead... (Luke 20:38)
Take it or leave it. I didn't present it as "court evidence."

Evidence by its very nature is relative according to people's opinions. Ask an atheist if there is any evidence for God and he will deny you everything you believe is evidence in "court."

I offered this for the community to know it exists and follow up with their own study and search. (Matthew 7:7)

If you read my previous post, I disclosed that I was not presenting a "Biblical" proof response per se, but giving a general insight I have come to know to large numbers of people who don't even have a clue the phenomenon exists. But there are scriptures that support these things. (Such as the one I've included here, there are others, I just wasn't attempting to write a book or prove anything - People can also ask if they want them)

They can all determine for themselves. I don't dictate to people what to believe, I simply share and offer the observations I have found myself for their own discernment.

I didn't see any stipulation in the OP about anyone asking for "court evidence."

The Gospels themselves are based on witness testimony. Simon Greenleaf did his "Testimony of the Evangelists" on this principle.

Every account we have in the Bible for that matter is a witness account.

Like I said previously, it is a take it or leave it observation, and people can and should follow up themselves on the matter and not just take my word for anything. We should certainly all be Bereans. (Acts 17:11)

If it doesn't align with God's Word, maybe explain that position. But to simply make the assertion that literally everything outside the Bible is invalid is a bit extreme and I think that is exactly what those who opposed Lord Jesus were doing in His day. Using God's Word to litigate literally everything anyone ever did or said. (like healing on the Sabbath)

I personally don't take everyone for liars. I scrutinize their accounts and for me it absolutely must align with Scripture... But I don't put God inside some kind of tiny box that says God doesn't speak through people today and quit all that jazz 2000 years ago.

Not to mention... the stories themselves, if investigated properly, and some of them are, are validated by the impossibility of the information that people bring back with no other way of knowing besides having been outside their bodies.

I've been doing this a long time. I didn't just watch a few videos last week and then show up here to tell everyone about some random information.

I've watched hundreds and maybe thousands of them. Deep diving for 20 years.

If people want to know if these accounts are true, they are absolutely capable of checking them out themselves. They are everywhere. I have made no claim that their testimonies are infallible. But I do attest that I believe there are true accounts, and demonic accounts and I think a believer can know the difference.

Let them look... They deserve the opportunity to consider the information first hand. The enemy is the one that wants to hide the truth, not God.

They have the Bible to cross verify what people are claiming just like I do.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What sin caused their deaths when there was no law to sin against?

I answered that already in the post that you quoted when I wrote : The argument here is that the presence of death among human beings between the creation and the giving of the Law is proof that sin was present in humanity even though there was no law to break, the reasoning hinges on defining sin as lawbreaking and that is what saint Paul is doing. He says, "Lawbreaking entered the world, and death came through Lawbreaking, and so death spread to all men, because all were Lawbreakers - for until the Law Lawbreaking was in the world,"
And the quote tells you the start time, it is from the fall until the Law.

 

[Hoping2]

You are setting Scripture of Eze 18:20 against itself in Ro 5:17-19. . .

I don't see it that way.
What I do see is that a curse has been lifted during Ezec's time that you want to reinstitute.

To impute is "to charge to one's account."
God imputes our own sin to us.

That I agree with, but I don't agree that Adam and Eve's sins were charged to our account.

But between Adam and Moses there was no law by which to impute sin to men (the cause of their death, Ro 6:23), and yet they all died anyway.
How did that work? What sin caused their deaths?

No sin caused their deaths.
Adam brought death to humanity.

God imputed Adam's sin to them (Ro 5:17, 12-14).

You are misreading it

The sin from which they died was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-14), and which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

You are misreading it.

God's word reveals that the father Adam's sin is not inherited (Eze 18:20), it is imputed in (Ro 5:12-17).

You are still misreading it.
You keep seeing the words written of death, as sin.
Stop it !

Correct. . .no personal sin is imputed to anyone where there is no law, because there is no law for one to sin against.

Knowing that, why do you keep insisting babies will die for Adam's sin ?

But Adam's sin is imputed (Ro 5:17), which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law by which to charge them with sin.

No, it is not.
Rom 5:17..."For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;..."
Death, not sin.

You are not taking into account God's word in Ro 5:12-17, where Adam's sin is imputed to all those of Adam
(which was the sin which caused the deaths of all those between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against),
just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Fails to deal with the word of God in Ro 5:12-17, and the paralleling of the imputed sin of Adam to all those of Adam with the imputed righteousness of Christ to all those of Christ in Ro 5:18-19.

Can you spell death ?
Can you spell sin ?
Can you tell them apart ?
I suggest you reread Rom 5 using the correct terminology.