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Infallibility of Scriptures Proves Gay is Sin according to the Scriptures

MercyBurst

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A logical argument is presented here.

People that believe the bible is inerrant also believe that homosexual behavior is sin. Are there any exceptions to this rule?

People that don't believe gay behavior is sin, believe the bible is fallible. If the bible is fallible, then their understanding of the bible is fallible as well, because they must rely on their own understanding rather than the authority of scriptures. Their agenda is based on their own self-interests rather than the truth and the authority of scriptures (which they doubt).

Hence people that believe the bible contains no errors are more correct in interpretting what the scriptures say. Their agenda is to preserve the truth contained in the scriptures, which they believe to be true.

All the rest are out to disprove scripture or revise scripture. Have you ever noticed that there is not a "gay affirming" version of the bible from cover to cover?
 

davedjy

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A logical argument is presented here.

People that believe the bible is inerrant also believe that homosexual behavior is sin. Are there any exceptions to this rule?

People that don't believe gay behavior is sin, believe the bible is fallible. If the bible is fallible, then their understanding of the bible is fallible as well, because they must rely on their own understanding rather than the authority of scriptures. Their agenda is based on their own self-interests rather than the truth and the authority of scriptures (which they doubt).

Hence people that believe the bible contains no errors are more correct in interpretting what the scriptures say. Their agenda is to preserve the truth contained in the scriptures, which they believe to be true.

All the rest are out to disprove scripture or revise scripture. Have you ever noticed that there is not a "gay affirming" version of the bible from cover to cover?
***Get to know the facts about homosexuality:

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm



***Don't believe lies founded on false traditions:

http://gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/gay_and_christian_yes.htm



***Learn the truth about Leviticus and Temple idolatry and prostitution:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The Mystery.htm



***Find a GBLT Affirming Church in your area:

http://gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/united_states.htm


FACT: No one has the right to point a finger, calling you a sinner.
Romans 3:23 "ALL have sinned (missed the mark) and come short of the glory of God."
FACT: The only ingredient necessary for any person - homosexual or heterosexual - to have perfect peace with God, is faith in Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1 "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
FACT: The person who condemns you based on your innate sexuality confesses his or her ignorance of the Biblical Doctrine of Salvation.
Ephesians 2: 8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."
FACT: Your sexual constitution has nothing to do with salvation.
Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm
 
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davedjy

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Hypothesis is correct so far:

I believe in inerrancy. I believe gay is sin.

Dave believes bible is in error. Dave believes gay is not sin.
1. The confusion of the translators
Translators were extremely confused as to what "arsenokoitai" meant. I have a real problem with translators who insist on translating the obscure word, "arsenokoitai", as "homosexuals" since there is such a lack of lexical data supporting that translation. Besides the word "homosexual" did not exist until the 20th century!
Before going any further let's look at what some scholars had to say:

"I believe it [arsenokoitai] explicitly relates to homosexuality." -- A. Mohler

"It [malakoi] can have a meaning that's not carnal. But the way it's used -- it's embedded in the same context with adultery -- it's pretty clear what the meaning is...A hallmark of Evangelicals is that we take a literal, normal, face-value interpretation of the Bible. Some people attempt to keep some form of Christianity and hold on to homosexuality, too. It leads to strange interpretations of the Bible."-- T. Crater

"In short, it is unclear whether the issue [the meaning of arsenokoitai and malakoi] is homosexuality alone..." -- Walter Wink

John Boswell ["Christianity, Soical Tolerance, and Homosexuality", pg. 334], who was a Greek & Hebrew language scholar and Historian from Yale University, felt that arsenokoitai may have meant "male prostitutes capable of the active role with either men or women"

"One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians 6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior." -- Victor Paul Furnish, a Professor of New Testament from Perkins School of Theology, Dallas.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm
 
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MercyBurst

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1. The confusion of the translators
Translators were extremely confused as to what "arsenokoitai" meant. I have a real problem with translators who insist on translating the obscure word, "arsenokoitai", as "homosexuals" since there is such a lack of lexical data supporting that translation. Besides the word "homosexual" did not exist until the 20th century!
Before going any further let's look at what some scholars had to say:

"I believe it [arsenokoitai] explicitly relates to homosexuality." -- A. Mohler

"

Dave, you are proving my point completely. You believe the bible is mistranslated, hence you can not recieve truth from the bible. This is self-evident.
 
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davedjy

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Dave, you are proving my point completely. You believe the bible is mistranslated, hence you can not recieve truth from the bible. This is self-evident.
The translations are not self-evident.

Do a reading of 1 Cor 6:9 in the KJV and do one in the NIV.


YOU have to do research on your behalf. Laziness is what kept me sick and in oppression my whole life. I don't trust modern day translations!
 
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davedjy

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This is infallible:

FACT: There is not one condemnation of homosexuality as one’s innate sexual constitution in the Scriptures. In fact, any reputable Bible scholar will tell you that when the original manuscripts were written in the languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, in none of these languages did the word "homosexual," or any viable translation of the word, exist.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm
 
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MercyBurst

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Dave,

[A] Do you believe the scriptures are infallible? (answer is no for you)

Do you believe homosexual behavior is sin? (answer is no for you)

If [A] is no then is no.

If [A] is yes then is yes.

Find someone that disagrees. You have already stated your own view, and it confirms the logical association I have established.
 
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Polycarp1

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A logical argument is presented here.

People that believe the bible is inerrant also believe that homosexual behavior is sin. Are there any exceptions to this rule?

Possibly, though I don't know of any. The fact is, people who believe in your interpretation of Scripture, applying the conditions of 21st Century Western culture to the text, believe that all homosexual behavior is sin. I do grant that it appears to say that unless one studies the background of the relevant verses, and takes them in context.

People that don't believe gay behavior is sin, believe the bible is fallible.

I would venture to guess that there is not one member of CF who would explicitly say "all gay behavior is not sin." There are some clear condemnations of homosexual actions in specific contexts by anyone's reading. For example, the textual-critical approach to I Corinthians 7 clearly states that it condemns those who patronize the enslaved boy prostitutes of Corinth and those who pander them. Similarly, the effete, jaded elite of Rome are condemned for turning from straight sex to gay in a quest for new thrills.
If the bible is fallible, then their understanding of the bible is fallible as well, because they must rely on their own understanding rather than the authority of scriptures. Their agenda is based on their own self-interests rather than the truth and the authority of scriptures (which they doubt).

This does not follow. Many Churches base their teachings on tradition, reason, and experience as well as on scripture. Also, keep in mind that we are to "rightly divide" Scripture, meaning that we are to study it deeply to learn what it actually says. Scholars who research into the language used, the customs of the time and place it was written, and so on, produce something other than people's self-interests.

Hence people that believe the bible contains no errors are more correct in interpretting what the scriptures say. Their agenda is to preserve the truth contained in the scriptures, which they believe to be true.

It's your privilege to believe so, and I honor that. There are, however, many people who appear to use the apparent condemnation of gay sex in scripture as a rationalization for condemning gay people altogether, seeing in it grounds to ostracize and assault them. And I would hope that those who see gay sex as sinful but believe in Christ's teachings would join with the rest of us in condemning such people.

All the rest are out to disprove scripture or revise scripture. Have you ever noticed that there is not a "gay affirming" version of the bible from cover to cover?

Um, my take on this is that there are no restrictive clauses barring gay people, even "unrepentantly gay" people, from the salvation of Jesus Christ and from God's love. God so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten son. He died for the sins of all, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but by grace are we save through faith, and not by works, lest any man should boast. If you believe in your heart and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. Repentance is called for, yes, but not repentance of what you or I or anyone else mortal considers sinful -- instead, of what the Holy Spirit convicts people of as sinful. Not one word in any of that excluding gay people. And while we focus on homosexuality in this forum, people are going hungry, homeless, unwanted children are without families, big business is gouging all the traffic will bear from people who cannot afford it, loan sharks are committing usury in the sinful sense (the KJV uses it in two ways -- one synonymous with "interest" and the other with "gouging with excessive interest, as a loanshark"), teens are feeling rejected and suicidal or turning to drugs as an escape, people are buying second homes, luxury boats and overpriced cars instead of helping alleviate these problems.... There's plenty of sin in this world that needs repenting of besides homosexuality (if it does) and they too are generally unrepentant. At least, I've never seen a bank president confess that he's cheated the people he's made loans to by charging them the highest rate of interest he could get out of them, knowing he had them over a barrel. I've never seen anyone repent of buying a Lexus SUV instead of buying a Honda compact and giving the rest to charity. I've never known a church activist group to go picket Beneficial Finance or the Infiniti dealer.

Bottom line: The Bible is not considered inerrant by the majority of churches or Christians worldwide. Not everyone who argues in behalf of gay people is him/herself gay -- myself for example. Some of us do it because we see them being turned into scapegoats while other sin goes undenounced -- because it's stuff that tempts "good Christians." Only 5% or so of the population is gay; what percent do you think spends beyond their means to get the most luxuries and fails to care for the poor and needy among us?
 
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PinkTulip

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This is infallible:

FACT: There is not one condemnation of homosexuality as one’s innate sexual constitution in the Scriptures. In fact, any reputable Bible scholar will tell you that when the original manuscripts were written in the languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, in none of these languages did the word "homosexual," or any viable translation of the word, exist.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm
Christians should not be homosexuals:

20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her. Levitcus 18:20

Leviticus 18:19-22 confirmed by Acts 15:19-22

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
 
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MercyBurst

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Possibly, though I don't know of any. The fact is, people who believe in your interpretation of Scripture, applying the conditions of 21st Century Western culture to the text, believe that all homosexual behavior is sin. I do grant that it appears to say that unless one studies the background of the relevant verses, and takes them in context.

You believe that the scriptures are fallible. Is this not correct?


I would venture to guess that there is not one member of CF who would explicitly say "all gay behavior is not sin."

Does not change the argument.

There are some clear condemnations of homosexual actions in specific contexts by anyone's reading. For example, the textual-critical approach to I Corinthians 7 clearly states that it condemns those who patronize the enslaved boy prostitutes of Corinth and those who pander them. Similarly, the effete, jaded elite of Rome are condemned for turning from straight sex to gay in a quest for new thrills.

ok, so choice IS involved. But it does not change the hypothesis.


This does not follow. Many Churches base their teachings on tradition, reason, and experience as well as on scripture. Also, keep in mind that we are to "rightly divide" Scripture, meaning that we are to study it deeply to learn what it actually says. Scholars who research into the language used, the customs of the time and place it was written, and so on, produce something other than people's self-interests.

And who started the traditions -- mostly early christians. Still does not change the hypothesis.

It's your privilege to believe so, and I honor that. There are, however, many people who appear to use the apparent condemnation of gay sex in scripture as a rationalization for condemning gay people altogether, seeing in it grounds to ostracize and assault them. And I would hope that those who see gay sex as sinful but believe in Christ's teachings would join with the rest of us in condemning such people.

They also believe the scriptures are inerrant. Hypothesis still stands.

Um, my take on this is that there are no restrictive clauses barring gay people, even "unrepentantly gay" people, from the salvation of Jesus Christ and from God's love. God so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten son. He died for the sins of all, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but by grace are we save through faith, and not by works, lest any man should boast. If you believe in your heart and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. Repentance is called for, yes, but not repentance of what you or I or anyone else mortal considers sinful -- instead, of what the Holy Spirit convicts people of as sinful. Not one word in any of that excluding gay people. And while we focus on homosexuality in this forum, people are going hungry, homeless, unwanted children are without families, big business is gouging all the traffic will bear from people who cannot afford it, loan sharks are committing usury in the sinful sense (the KJV uses it in two ways -- one synonymous with "interest" and the other with "gouging with excessive interest, as a loanshark"), teens are feeling rejected and suicidal or turning to drugs as an escape, people are buying second homes, luxury boats and overpriced cars instead of helping alleviate these problems.... There's plenty of sin in this world that needs repenting of besides homosexuality (if it does) and they too are generally unrepentant. At least, I've never seen a bank president confess that he's cheated the people he's made loans to by charging them the highest rate of interest he could get out of them, knowing he had them over a barrel. I've never seen anyone repent of buying a Lexus SUV instead of buying a Honda compact and giving the rest to charity. I've never known a church activist group to go picket Beneficial Finance or the Infiniti dealer.

just you rambling, but ok.

Bottom line: The Bible is not considered inerrant by the majority of churches or Christians worldwide.

still doesn't change the hypothesis.


Not everyone who argues in behalf of gay people is him/herself gay -- myself for example. Some of us do it because we see them being turned into scapegoats while other sin goes undenounced -- because it's stuff that tempts "good Christians." Only 5% or so of the population is gay; what percent do you think spends beyond their means to get the most luxuries and fails to care for the poor and needy among us?

Bottom line, you believe the scriptures contain some errors, personal prejudices, etc, hence you are gay affirming..
 
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Polycarp1

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MercyBurst said:
just you rambling, but ok.

So in your Bible it says, "The first and greatest commandment is this: Thou shalt not be homosexual. And the second is like unto it: Thou shall not affirm a gay person."???

My "just rambling" touched on the core of the Gospel -- the Good News of Jesus Christ -- and some sins that I'm sure you don't want to face up to and repent of. True or false?
 
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MercyBurst

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So in your Bible it says, "The first and greatest commandment is this: Thou shalt not be homosexual. And the second is like unto it: Thou shall not affirm a gay person."???

My "just rambling" touched on the core of the Gospel -- the Good News of Jesus Christ -- and some sins that I'm sure you don't want to face up to and repent of. True or false?

Non Sequitor.

The hypothesis says you can not receive truth from the scriptures if you believe the scriptures are fallible.

Do you beleive the book of Genesis is true? Adam & Eve, satan, the great flood, God destroyed sodom and gomorrah, Moses parted the Red Sea, etc. etc.?

If you don't believe this and everything else in the bible, then the rest is predictable. Prove I'm wrong.
 
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tulc

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Furthermore, if someone does not believe the scriptures are true, then they can not receive truth from the scriptures. Is this not self-evident to everyone?

Well no not really, we learn truths from non-truths all the time. Something can contain truth and not be absolutely true. :)
tulc(just so you know)
 
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