In Revelation 19 & 20 is 'casting into' literal or not?

[DavidPT]

Let's start with the following passages first.


Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


What I mean by the title of the OP, is the casting into literal, meaning is something being cast into a literal place, a place that literally exists?

In the above 3 passages we see that there are entities being cast into somewhere, the LOF in this case. Should we then be taking this in a literal sense, that these entities, which include angelic beings such as satan or whatever kind of being he is, humans, demons, etc, that they are literally being cast into a literal place that literally exists?

Why might any of this matter to begin with? The reason why is because there is one more passage that also involves someone being cast into somewhere. Therefore, depending on what we conclude about the 3 passages above, should that not mean we should equally conclude that about the following below as well?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Here we also see a being being cast into somewhere, the bottomless pit in this case. We now have the following.

1) These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

2) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

3) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

4) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

5) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit

Except for 3), all of these accounts involve literal beings that are being cast into somewhere. 1), 2), and 4) involve them being cast into the LOF. 5) involves being cast into the bottomless pit. If the LOF is a real place, doesn't it stand to reason that the bottomless pit has to be a real place as well?

Speaking of the bottomless pit, what about what is recorded in Revelation 9? If the bottomless pit is not a real place, a prison of sorts, that holds beings like this, where then should we assume these beings presently are since we see no sign of their existence while they are inside of the pit that some of you have decided is not a literal place? Meaning these locusts.

How is it, if the millennium is supposed to be now, which means that both satan and these demon locusts, or whatever they might be, it's as if these locusts don't even literally exist since there is zero reason to think they are presently active in the earth, but as to satan, there's plenty of reasons to think he is presently active in the earth. After all, one of the things he does best and is a pro at, is deception.

Clearly, there has been plenty of deceiving still going on for the past 2000 years through the present. But how much tormenting of the lost for 5 months has been going on for the past 2000 years through the present? How about zero? Why? Apparently, because the bottomless pit can actually do what it's designed to do, in the case of these locusts, confine them some place, as if they don't even exist until they are released. Except the bottomless pit fails to do this in satan's case for some reason, if he too is supposed to be in the pit when these locusts are in the pit.


Of course though, Amils are going to argue, what about the key and great chain recorded in Revelation 20:1? Shouldn't that mean if the bottomless pit is a real place then so must the key and great chain be literal?

It's raining cats and dogs outside. Well, since the cats and dogs are not literal, then neither can 'the rain' be literal nor can 'outside' be literal. Isn't that pretty much how Amils are reasoning Revelation 20:1-3?


If satan, a literal being, can be cast into a literal place, the LOF in this case, why can't this same literal being also be cast into another literal place, the bottomless pit in this case?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Of course though, Amils are going to argue, what about the key and great chain recorded in Revelation 20:1? Shouldn't that mean if the bottomless pit is a real place then so must the key and great chain be literal?

It's raining cats and dogs outside. Well, since the cats and dogs are not literal, then neither can 'the rain' be literal nor can 'outside' be literal. Isn't that pretty much how Amils are reasoning Revelation 20:1-3?

Here is Bible Study for Revelation 20:1

• "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand".

Revelation Chapter 20 is introduced by the phrase, "And (or Then) I saw an angel come down from heaven..". This is not indicating that John is now having a vision of events that happen after the events in Chapter 19. It is just the introduction of a new vision that John was seeing. This is obviously a different vision from chapter 19, and there is nothing in scripture that would have anyone believe the events in the Chapters of revelation go along chronologically like many people thought. In fact, the scriptures preclude it!

The word angel here is the Greek word [aggelos] meaning messenger, and is the "exact" same word translated messenger throughout New Testament scripture. This Messenger who came down from heaven with the key and great Chain to bind Satan is God's Anointed Messenger Jesus Christ! For He is the Chief Messenger of the Covenant of God who comes down from heaven with the power to bind Satan and by His death give that Covenant strength (Philippians 2:6-8). It's the fulfillment of Prophesy of the messenger of God who redeems from the hand of the strong one, Satan. This Messenger of the Covenant is the deliverer out of Zion that was prophesied to come and defeat Satan and free his captivity, to make strong the New Covenant with Israel (see Jeremiah 31, Daniel 9:27). Christ is the Prophesied foundation of the Temple rebuilding (building again), and the freeing of Israel. But in order to do that, that great deceiver Satan had to FIRST be bound because he held the captivity of the nations or gentiles, with the strong hand of death hanging over them. This Messenger who came down from Heaven with the power to bind Satan and loose the peoples of the world, is Christ.

Malachi 3:1

• "...and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His TEMPLE, even the Messenger of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts."

This is the anointed Christ, the Word made flesh. This Messenger ([malak], the exact same Old testament word translated Angel,) is He who came down from heaven to give the Covenant strength. He came with the Key and great Chain to bind Satan in a bottomless pit (Abyss) so that he can no longer deceive the gentiles by holding them in bondage. Revelation 20 is the fulfillment of that Prophesy.

Isaiah the Prophet spoke of a time when the Gentiles (nations) would come into the kingdom of God (Isaiah 9:1; 42:6; 49:2,22) when the Messiah come to free the captivity, and this was fulfilled in Christ's first advent. Therefore, the basis upon which the gospel can now go unto all the nations of the world is that Satan’s deceiving hold upon the Gentiles (same word as translated nations) has now been bound as all power is given to Christ to evangelize the world.

Matthew 28:18-19

• "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
  
  
• Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Because of this Messenger [aggelos] from heaven Satan cannot thwart the building of the Lord's Temple with the chosen of the nations, because he has been bound from doing so! Get it?! Nothing to do with the "world peace" of premillennialists' fantasy in the future. That power of binding is in the symbolism of the key, the chain, and the Messenger from Heaven.

NOW, Satan CANNOT be bound with a literal Chain of iron, or locked in a pit with a literal brass Key. Satan is a SPIRIT being which cannot be bound by literal earthly devices. Get it?! The words here of keys and chains have spiritual significance. The Lord uses these symbols to illustrate a spiritual (but very literal) picture for us. Once we understand this, half the battle of understanding His Word is won. The Key here symbolizes that the Messenger has the right and authority to bind and loose. This messenger come down from Heaven and holds the right and authority and means (key) to bind Satan. The signification being, "He who holds the key, holds the ability and authority to restrain Satan". That would also include the ability and authority to loose Satan from that restraint. The Chain symbolizes the power (force or energy required to do the holding) to bind. It is a "Great" Chain because Satan is a spiritual and strong adversary (ie. strong man in Matthew 12:29), upon whom only a great or special binding from God will restrain. The bottomless pit is symbolism for a boundless void (or Abyss) of nothingness. Satan (a spirit being) is held in idleness, that his ability to deceive the gentiles whom God is now also drawing by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, is stopped. i.e., He cannot prevent this while God's church is being built.

So the Biblical Truth is the key and the great chain are spiritual in nature!

This first verse is opening the vision with a word picture of the time that the Messenger from God came, as prophesied, to restrain Satan, and lose the unsaved gentiles from his deceiving grip. This took place at Christ's first advent. It is an opening image of the promised Messenger [aggelos] of the Covenant coming down from Heaven with the authority, means, and power to bind Satan, and free the nations. This Messenger was prophesied to come to His temple and bring Peace to Israel by freeing the captivity and reconciling them to God. The mystery is revealed that the Gentiles or nations were included in this promise. Therefore this already takes place at the Cross with the established of the Church as a New Testament representative of God's Kingdom on Earth which many premillennialists have denied and believe that the physical millennial kingdom and binding of Satan has not come.

And when we think about this honestly, what other Messenger comes down from Heaven with the seal (security) of the Living God, and the Keys to Bind and loose Satan, and has the power to take hold of him, and cast him in a void where he cannot deceive the nations for a period? Only the Lord qualifies for such an impossible task! No one else has that kind of Power to overcome or conquer the strong one, Satan. Archangel Michael "IS" Jesus Christ! The Only messenger who came down from heaven to bind Satan is Christ! And when we carefully study scripture we see that this was precisely as was prophesied. It was for this reason that The Messenger of the New Covenant was prophesied to come. To ransom the prisoners from the hand of the strong one and set Jacob free. He fulfilled that prophesy.

If satan, a literal being, can be cast into a literal place, the LOF in this case, why can't this same literal being also be cast into another literal place, the bottomless pit in this case?

Gee-whiz!! Where do you find in Scripture that Satan is a literal being?!? No, he is a SPIRIT. There is no "literal" place for Satan or his followers. Also I dare you to explain where the Lake of Fire that lasts eternity be in the New Earth and New Heaven? Do you even know what is the Lake of Fire really is?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Let's start with the following passages first.


Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


What I mean by the title of the OP, is the casting into literal, meaning is something being cast into a literal place, a place that literally exists?

In the above 3 passages we see that there are entities being cast into somewhere, the LOF in this case. Should we then be taking this in a literal sense, that these entities, which include angelic beings such as satan or whatever kind of being he is, humans, demons, etc, that they are literally being cast into a literal place that literally exists?

Why might any of this matter to begin with? The reason why is because there is one more passage that also involves someone being cast into somewhere. Therefore, depending on what we conclude about the 3 passages above, should that not mean we should equally conclude that about the following below as well?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Here we also see a being being cast into somewhere, the bottomless pit in this case. We now have the following.

1) These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

2) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

3) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

4) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

5) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit

Except for 3), all of these accounts involve literal beings that are being cast into somewhere. 1), 2), and 4) involve them being cast into the LOF. 5) involves being cast into the bottomless pit. If the LOF is a real place, doesn't it stand to reason that the bottomless pit has to be a real place as well?

Speaking of the bottomless pit, what about what is recorded in Revelation 9? If the bottomless pit is not a real place, a prison of sorts, that holds beings like this, where then should we assume these beings presently are since we see no sign of their existence while they are inside of the pit that some of you have decided is not a literal place? Meaning these locusts.

How is it, if the millennium is supposed to be now, which means that both satan and these demon locusts, or whatever they might be, it's as if these locusts don't even literally exist since there is zero reason to think they are presently active in the earth, but as to satan, there's plenty of reasons to think he is presently active in the earth. After all, one of the things he does best and is a pro at, is deception.

Clearly, there has been plenty of deceiving still going on for the past 2000 years through the present. But how much tormenting of the lost for 5 months has been going on for the past 2000 years through the present? How about zero? Why? Apparently, because the bottomless pit can actually do what it's designed to do, in the case of these locusts, confine them some place, as if they don't even exist until they are released. Except the bottomless pit fails to do this in satan's case for some reason, if he too is supposed to be in the pit when these locusts are in the pit.


Of course though, Amils are going to argue, what about the key and great chain recorded in Revelation 20:1? Shouldn't that mean if the bottomless pit is a real place then so must the key and great chain be literal?

It's raining cats and dogs outside. Well, since the cats and dogs are not literal, then neither can 'the rain' be literal nor can 'outside' be literal. Isn't that pretty much how Amils are reasoning Revelation 20:1-3?


If satan, a literal being, can be cast into a literal place, the LOF in this case, why can't this same literal being also be cast into another literal place, the bottomless pit in this case?

I'll just start with addressing the lake of fire. Is it a literal place? Your argument is that it must be because literal beings are cast there. Did you purposely ignore Revelation 20:14? Notice that even death and hell (Hades) are cast there (Rev 20:14). How can death be cast into a literal lake of fire? That is impossible. So, it can't be talking about literally casting literal beings into a literal lake of fire.

As far as the bottomless pit/abyss is concerned, it is a symbolic place where a symbolic dragon, a symbolic beast and symbolic locusts are located and not a literal place where the beings those symbolic animals represent are located. How can symbolic creatures dwell in literal places? It seems to me that symbolic creatures dwell in symbolic places, not literal places.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Gee-whiz!! Where do you find in Scripture that Satan is a literal being?!? No, he is a SPIRIT. There is no "literal" place for Satan or his followers.

I'm pretty sure what he meant is that Satan is a real being rather than a fictional one. I'm pretty sure he understands that Satan is a spirit being.

But, the question then is, can a spirit being be cast into a literal, physical place? No. A spirit being does not have physical limitations, so it can't be confined in a physical space as if physical ceilings, walls, and floors can contain a spirit being.

 

[DavidPT]

Here is Bible Study for Revelation 20:1

• "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand".

Revelation Chapter 20 is introduced by the phrase, "And (or Then) I saw an angel come down from heaven..". This is not indicating that John is now having a vision of events that happen after the events in Chapter 19. It is just the introduction of a new vision that John was seeing. This is obviously a different vision from chapter 19, and there is nothing in scripture that would have anyone believe the events in the Chapters of revelation go along chronologically like many people thought. In fact, the scriptures preclude it!

The word angel here is the Greek word [aggelos] meaning messenger, and is the "exact" same word translated messenger throughout New Testament scripture. This Messenger who came down from heaven with the key and great Chain to bind Satan is God's Anointed Messenger Jesus Christ! For He is the Chief Messenger of the Covenant of God who comes down from heaven with the power to bind Satan and by His death give that Covenant strength (Philippians 2:6-8). It's the fulfillment of Prophesy of the messenger of God who redeems from the hand of the strong one, Satan. This Messenger of the Covenant is the deliverer out of Zion that was prophesied to come and defeat Satan and free his captivity, to make strong the New Covenant with Israel (see Jeremiah 31, Daniel 9:27). Christ is the Prophesied foundation of the Temple rebuilding (building again), and the freeing of Israel. But in order to do that, that great deceiver Satan had to FIRST be bound because he held the captivity of the nations or gentiles, with the strong hand of death hanging over them. This Messenger who came down from Heaven with the power to bind Satan and loose the peoples of the world, is Christ.

Malachi 3:1

• "...and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His TEMPLE, even the Messenger of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts."

This is the anointed Christ, the Word made flesh. This Messenger ([malak], the exact same Old testament word translated Angel,) is He who came down from heaven to give the Covenant strength. He came with the Key and great Chain to bind Satan in a bottomless pit (Abyss) so that he can no longer deceive the gentiles by holding them in bondage. Revelation 20 is the fulfillment of that Prophesy.

Isaiah the Prophet spoke of a time when the Gentiles (nations) would come into the kingdom of God (Isaiah 9:1; 42:6; 49:2,22) when the Messiah come to free the captivity, and this was fulfilled in Christ's first advent. Therefore, the basis upon which the gospel can now go unto all the nations of the world is that Satan’s deceiving hold upon the Gentiles (same word as translated nations) has now been bound as all power is given to Christ to evangelize the world.

Matthew 28:18-19

• "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
  
  
• Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Because of this Messenger [aggelos] from heaven Satan cannot thwart the building of the Lord's Temple with the chosen of the nations, because he has been bound from doing so! Get it?! Nothing to do with the "world peace" of premillennialists' fantasy in the future. That power of binding is in the symbolism of the key, the chain, and the Messenger from Heaven.

NOW, Satan CANNOT be bound with a literal Chain of iron, or locked in a pit with a literal brass Key. Satan is a SPIRIT being which cannot be bound by literal earthly devices. Get it?! The words here of keys and chains have spiritual significance. The Lord uses these symbols to illustrate a spiritual (but very literal) picture for us. Once we understand this, half the battle of understanding His Word is won. The Key here symbolizes that the Messenger has the right and authority to bind and loose. This messenger come down from Heaven and holds the right and authority and means (key) to bind Satan. The signification being, "He who holds the key, holds the ability and authority to restrain Satan". That would also include the ability and authority to loose Satan from that restraint. The Chain symbolizes the power (force or energy required to do the holding) to bind. It is a "Great" Chain because Satan is a spiritual and strong adversary (ie. strong man in Matthew 12:29), upon whom only a great or special binding from God will restrain. The bottomless pit is symbolism for a boundless void (or Abyss) of nothingness. Satan (a spirit being) is held in idleness, that his ability to deceive the gentiles whom God is now also drawing by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, is stopped. i.e., He cannot prevent this while God's church is being built.

So the Biblical Truth is the key and the great chain are spiritual in nature!

This first verse is opening the vision with a word picture of the time that the Messenger from God came, as prophesied, to restrain Satan, and lose the unsaved gentiles from his deceiving grip. This took place at Christ's first advent. It is an opening image of the promised Messenger [aggelos] of the Covenant coming down from Heaven with the authority, means, and power to bind Satan, and free the nations. This Messenger was prophesied to come to His temple and bring Peace to Israel by freeing the captivity and reconciling them to God. The mystery is revealed that the Gentiles or nations were included in this promise. Therefore this already takes place at the Cross with the established of the Church as a New Testament representative of God's Kingdom on Earth which many premillennialists have denied and believe that the physical millennial kingdom and binding of Satan has not come.

And when we think about this honestly, what other Messenger comes down from Heaven with the seal (security) of the Living God, and the Keys to Bind and loose Satan, and has the power to take hold of him, and cast him in a void where he cannot deceive the nations for a period? Only the Lord qualifies for such an impossible task! No one else has that kind of Power to overcome or conquer the strong one, Satan. Archangel Michael "IS" Jesus Christ! The Only messenger who came down from heaven to bind Satan is Christ! And when we carefully study scripture we see that this was precisely as was prophesied. It was for this reason that The Messenger of the New Covenant was prophesied to come. To ransom the prisoners from the hand of the strong one and set Jacob free. He fulfilled that prophesy.




Gee-whiz!! Where do you find in Scripture that Satan is a literal being?!? No, he is a SPIRIT. There is no "literal" place for Satan or his followers. Also I dare you to explain where the Lake of Fire that lasts eternity be in the New Earth and New Heaven? Do you even know what is the Lake of Fire really is?

The following is something that has crossed my mind in the past, and when I proposed this to Amils they pretty much told me there is no there there. IOW, they pretty much talked me out of Amil at that particular time, because in my mind, this really could support Amil, since most of us already agree that Revelation is not chronological from start to finish.

And that I have always found it somewhat bizarre to begin with, that if Revelation 20:1 is chronologically after Revelation 19, which should mean myriads of angels would have come down from heaven at this point since the end of ch 19 involves the 2nd coming, but that somehow John mainly notices a lone angel in particular though there would probably be millions if not billions of angels having come down from heaven in the end of ch 19.

The following is something I observed in the KJV, so might not work with other translations. One time when I was doing a search for a particular phrase, I searched the following phrase---angel come down from heaven. The following were the passages that included that exact phrase.


Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Then I noticed this.

And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven

And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven

And I saw an angel come down from heaven

Hmmmm, I was thinking, the latter is a bit different than the first two. Could it be, the fact Revelation is not chronological from start to finish, that the first angel John ever sees coming down from heaven is meaning the one in Revelation 20:1? Therefore, making the event involving Revelation 20:1 to be meaning before the other 2 events. Like such, chronologically speaking.

And I saw an angel come down from heaven

Then at a later time John then sees another mighty angel come down from heaven, which tends to somewhat make sense that it would be another mighty angel since the one mentioned in Revelation 20:1 appears to be a mighty angel as well, regardless that the text didn't call him a mighty angel.

If we go back to Revelation 10:1, where is the first mighty angel that comes down from heaven? It can't be recorded in chapter 10 since there are no other verses prior to verse 1 in that chapter. Could the first mighty angel John sees coming down from heaven be meaning the angel in Revelation 20:1? Apparently not, since the Amils I ran this across in the past concluded there is no there there, therefore, not worth considering, thus a wild goose chase, so on and so on.

 

[claninja]

Let's start Let's start with the following passages first.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


What I mean by the title of the OP, is the casting into literal, meaning is something being cast into a literal place, a place that literally exists?

In the above 3 passages we see that there are entities being cast into somewhere, the LOF in this case. Should we then be taking this in a literal sense, that these entities, which include angelic beings such as satan or whatever kind of being he is, humans, demons, etc, that they are literally being cast into a literal place that literally exists?

Why might any of this matter to begin with? The reason why is because there is one more passage that also involves someone being cast into somewhere. Therefore, depending on what we conclude about the 3 passages above, should that not mean we should equally conclude that about the following below as well?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Here we also see a being being cast into somewhere, the bottomless pit in this case. We now have the following.

1) These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

2) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

3) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

4) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

5) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit

Except for 3), all of these accounts involve literal beings that are being cast into somewhere. 1), 2), and 4) involve them being cast into the LOF. 5) involves being cast into the bottomless pit. If the LOF is a real place, doesn't it stand to reason that the bottomless pit has to be a real place as well?

Speaking of the bottomless pit, what about what is recorded in Revelation 9? If the bottomless pit is not a real place, a prison of sorts, that holds beings like this, where then should we assume these beings presently are since we see no sign of their existence while they are inside of the pit that some of you have decided is not a literal place? Meaning these locusts.

How is it, if the millennium is supposed to be now, which means that both satan and these demon locusts, or whatever they might be, it's as if these locusts don't even literally exist since there is zero reason to think they are presently active in the earth, but as to satan, there's plenty of reasons to think he is presently active in the earth. After all, one of the things he does best and is a pro at, is deception.

Clearly, there has been plenty of deceiving still going on for the past 2000 years through the present. But how much tormenting of the lost for 5 months has been going on for the past 2000 years through the present? How about zero? Why? Apparently, because the bottomless pit can actually do what it's designed to do, in the case of these locusts, confine them some place, as if they don't even exist until they are released. Except the bottomless pit fails to do this in satan's case for some reason, if he too is supposed to be in the pit when these locusts are in the pit.


Of course though, Amils are going to argue, what about the key and great chain recorded in Revelation 20:1? Shouldn't that mean if the bottomless pit is a real place then so must the key and great chain be literal?

It's raining cats and dogs outside. Well, since the cats and dogs are not literal, then neither can 'the rain' be literal nor can 'outside' be literal. Isn't that pretty much how Amils are reasoning Revelation 20:1-3?


If satan, a literal being, can be cast into a literal place, the LOF in this case, why can't this same literal being also be cast into another literal place, the bottomless pit in this case?

Revelation interprets what the visual image of the LOF represents: the 2nd death.

Revelation 20:14 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


As far as the Abyss, In ancient near eastern cosmology it was the bottomless “sea” or “under the earth”.

Paul, alluding to deut 30:13, associates the abyss with the dead.

Romans 10:7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

Deuteronomy 30:13 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’

 

[TribulationSigns]

. A spirit being does not have physical limitations, so it can't be confined in a physical space as if physical ceilings, walls, and floors can contain a spirit being.

Of course.

Do they really understand who Satan or Lucifer really is? Was he a created being by God as an "archangel" in the first place before he fell, became evil and talked with Eve? Or was it our own spirit of disobedience that started within Eve? That is a good question!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And Revelation 18:20-21

• "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
• And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Angel means messenger.

The "point" is that if Christ is not an angel (and He's not), and the word used for Him is the same word 'aggelos' that is translated angel (and it is), then the word cannot possibly "MEAN" angel. Because Christ is decidedly "not" an angel. ...unless of course the word angel means messenger. Selah.

Malachi 3:1

• "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

The Messenger (angel) of the Covenant is Christ. The Messenger that went before Him to prepare the way is John The Baptist. The word translated messenger in both instances is the EXACT same word translated "angel" throughout the Old Testament. Q.E.D., the word "means" messenger, whether that is a heavenly messenger or a human messenger.

Therefore, in all Revelation verses with "mighty angel" you mentioned above is JESUS CHRIST. Not some feather-winged celestial being!

Could it be, the fact Revelation is not chronological from start to finish,

Of course, the book of Revelation is in no way chronological in its order of things revealed in imagery. For example, Christ is in the church in Revelation 2, the sealing of Israel ends in Revelation 7, and Christ was born in Revelation 12. Mr. Riddlebarger explained it well:

"Not only is it problematic to interpret the symbols used in apocalyptic literature literally, but it also is problematic to read the book of Revelation chronologically. When reading historical narrative, you start at the beginning and read through the narrative until you come to the end. The events described therin more or less follow a chronological sequence. Not so with apocalyptic literature such as the book of Revelation. Revelation contains a series of visions, each of which functions like a different camera angle looking at the same event. Therefore the order in which the various visions contained in Revelation are recounted by John does not necessarily reflect the order of historical occurence of the reality which those visions symbolise."​

Riddlebarger, 2003, Baker Books, MI, A Case for Amillennialism.

​

 

[DavidPT]

I'll just start with addressing the lake of fire. Is it a literal place? Your argument is that it must be because literal beings are cast there. Did you purposely ignore Revelation 20:14? Notice that even death and hell (Hades) are cast there (Rev 20:14). How can death be cast into a literal lake of fire? That is impossible. So, it can't be talking about literally casting literal beings into a literal lake of fire.

As far as the bottomless pit/abyss is concerned, it is a symbolic place where a symbolic dragon, a symbolic beast and symbolic locusts are located and not a literal place where the beings those symbolic animals represent are located. How can symbolic creatures dwell in literal places? It seems to me that symbolic creatures dwell in symbolic places, not literal places.

Do you not agree that when the lost are raised back to life, that they are raised bodily? The fact they would be in bodies, what should we think happens to them after that, the fact they are once again in physical bodies? Revelation 20 indicates they are cast into the LOF. If the LOF is not a literal place, where should we assume their bodies dwell after they are raised? Anyone that insists the LOF is not a literal place, makes no sense to me. I guess now God has to figure out what to do with all these physical bodies He raises since He has no literal place to send them.

Some of you argue that since satan is a spirit being, walls, ceilings, etc, can't hold him. Obviously, this is true if meaning in the realm you and I are presently dwelling in. But do you have proof this would also be the case in another realm, that even in another realm, it's impossible for God to design a prison of sorts that can literally confine spirit beings?

What about the souls of the lost when they die? Do you think they are confined somewhere that they can't get out of, or do you think they are just freely roaming around all over the place as is satan and his demons? After all, would they not be spirit beings until they are bodily resurrected? If no literal place in any realm can confine a spirit being such as satan, the same should be true when the lost die.

Some ppl think demons are actually departed souls of the lost after they have died, not angels that became demons after they rebelled with satan ages ago. That's not my position, but maybe they are right if you and others are correct that spirit beings can't literally be confined anywhere, in any realm.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm pretty sure what he meant is that Satan is a real being rather than a fictional one. I'm pretty sure he understands that Satan is a spirit being.

That's exactly what I meant. And in my mind, a literal being, a real being, it means the same thing. Maybe TribSigns thought I was meaning, since satan is also called a dragon and a serpent, that I was meaning a literal dragon, a literal serpent? Nope, I wasn't meaning that for certain.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation interprets what the visual image of the LOF represents: the 2nd death.

Revelation 20:14 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


As far as the Abyss, In ancient near eastern cosmology it was the bottomless “sea” or “under the earth”.

Paul, alluding to deut 30:13, associates the abyss with the dead.

Romans 10:7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

Deuteronomy 30:13 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’

What about the following then?

Luke 8:27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness. )
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos)
32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.
34 When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled, and went and told it in the city and in the country.


Mainly meaning what is recorded in verse 31---And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos)

No one would argue, at least I don't think so, that where Jesus did end up sending them, that this was not a literal place, meaning the lake. Why would that be a literal place, but the deep((abussos) in verse 31 wouldn't be? Why did they apparently dread being sent to the deep(abussos)? What was it that the demons had to fear if it isn't meaning a literal place? And is not (abussos) the same Greek word used for pit in Revelation?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Do you not agree that when the lost are raised back to life, that they are raised bodily?

I agree that they are raised bodily. For you to even ask me this question tells me that you probably didn't understand anything I said in my post.

The fact they would be in bodies, what should we think happens to them after that, the fact they are once again in physical bodies?

I don't know exactly. I believe they will experience torment of some kind (probably mental and spiritual rather than physical), but I think right now that is something that we are not meant to know yet in a literal sense and it might not even be something that we are currently able to comprehend in terms of what will happen to them exactly.

Revelation 20 indicates they are cast into the LOF. If the LOF is not a literal place, where should we assume their bodies dwell after they are raised?

I am not saying they will not be placed in some kind of location somewhere, but I'm talking in terms of it being a literal lake of fire or not. If it was a literal lake of fire then that means their bodies would be burning up in a literal lake of fire for eternity. Is that your understanding of the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:14 indicates that even death and hell (Hades) will be cast into the lake of fire, so what does that tell you about whether we should understand it to be a literal lake of fire or not?

Anyone that insists the LOF is not a literal place, makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense to me to think that people's bodies will literally burn for eternity. Tell me how that makes sense. Also, in other scripture, the eternal destination of unbelievers is described as outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. How can a literal lake of fire be described as outer darkness?

I guess now God has to figure out what to do with all these physical bodies He raises since He has no literal place to send them.

Yep, you misunderstood me. Just as I suspected. I'm not saying that they won't be put in a literal place of some kind, but I do not believe that place will be a literal lake of fire where they will be burned for eternity.

Some of you argue that since satan is a spirit being, walls, ceilings, etc, can't hold him. Obviously, this is true if meaning in the realm you and I are presently dwelling in. But do you have proof this would also be the case in another realm, that even in another realm, it's impossible for God to design a prison of sorts that can literally confine spirit beings?

Of course that isn't impossible, but we simply don't know exactly how things are in the spirit realm. We can only speculate.

What about the souls of the lost when they die? Do you think they are confined somewhere that they can't get out of, or do you think they are just freely roaming around all over the place as is satan and his demons?

I believe they are in heaven, a real place. What that looks like or how that works exactly, none of us know.

After all, would they not be spirit beings until they are bodily resurrected? If no literal place in any realm can confine a spirit being such as satan, the same should be true when the lost die.

I'm not even saying that a spirit being can't be confined to a literal place in some way. That is besides the point here. The question being asked here is whether the bottomless pit/abyss and the lake of fire are literal places in terms of them being a literal bottomless pit and a literal lake of fire. I don't believe so.

Some ppl think demons are actually departed souls of the lost after they have died, not angels that became demons after they rebelled with satan ages ago.

Who are these people and where did they get that crazy idea from?

That's not my position, but maybe they are right if you and others are correct that spirit beings can't literally be confined anywhere, in any realm.

I never said that.

 

[claninja]

What about the following then?

Luke 8:27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness. )
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos)
32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.
34 When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled, and went and told it in the city and in the country.


Mainly meaning what is recorded in verse 31---And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos)

No one would argue, at least I don't think so, that where Jesus did end up sending them, that this was not a literal place, meaning the lake. Why would that be a literal place, but the deep((abussos) in verse 31 wouldn't be? Why did they apparently dread being sent to the deep(abussos)? What was it that the demons had to fear if it isn't meaning a literal place? And is not (abussos) the same Greek word used for pit in Revelation?

According to ancient thought, in regards to the dead and evil spirits, The abyss was a “bottomless” pit or chasm under the earth.

From strong’s concordance:
“the abyss, unfathomable depth, an especially Jewish conception, the home of the dead and of evil spirits.”

“Sir. 1:3 Sir. 16:18, etc.; of Orcus (a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth”

“both as the common receptacle of the dead, Romans 10:7, and especially as the abode of demons”

I would argue 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1 explains why legion didn’t want to be sent to the abyss:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (Tartarus) and committed them to chainsb of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

Helps word studies:
“tartaróō – properly, send to Tartarus("Tartaros"). The NT uses 5020 (tartaróō) for the netherworld – the place of punishment fit only for demons. Later, Tartaros came to represent eternal punishment for wicked people.

"5020 (tartaróō) is a Greek name for the under-world, especially the abode of the damned – hence to cast into hell" (A-S); to send into the subterranean abyssreserved for demons and the dead.

[In Greek mythology, Tartarus was a "place of punishment under the earth, to which, for example, the Titans were sent" (Souter).]”

From modern scientific studies, we know there is no bottomless pit or chasm under the earth. So i don’t think the abyss should be understood literally in the sense that the ancients believed.

Additionally, The gospels, book of acts, or epistles do NOT mention any demons or Satan being confined to the abyss/Tartarus and then being released again.