I'm not sure I'm a Christian anymore

[graceandpeace]

Thanks for the info. Im not teaching anything, i was accused of something by a poster who assumed something they shouldn't have assumed in the first place, because i gave no reason for such an assumption. I then answered that assumption and provided my opinion. No worries however, i wont respond further in this forum. Peace

You're welcome to post here, but I took your post & that of another to be condemning the gay community (I.e. asserting there is a gay "lifestyle," something that doesn't exist & is often used as a smear against gay people), which is why I mentioned the statement of purpose for this forum. I apologize if I misunderstood your post's intention.

 

[FireDragon76]

I dont have contempt for gays. Who am i to judge them? However, that still doesnt make that lifestyle right.

The fact you see it merely as a lifestyle is proof you judge them. Rather than give these people the benefit of the doubt and actually look at the facts of their lives, you sacrifice them on the altar of religion so that you can continue to have the fantasy of certain faith, without any mysteries or blind spots.

You just accept, for instance, that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and fully complete in advising a person how to live. Where does this belief come from? It comes specifically from Christian Fundamentalism. So you are making an idol out of religious ideology, refusing to prove any of your baseless assertions. It seems to me you are the one being unreasonable here.

Again, your attitude is very foreign to Whosoever Will, May Come.

 

[JoeP222w]

Methodists, like Lutherans and Episcopalians, believe that a human being is born again in baptism. Your particular beliefs are far newer than you think, they are not those of most early Christians. What gives you the right to dictate what is, and is not, Christianity? Even Christian Forums doesn't do this. So I think you sir, are in the wrong here. I was raised a Christian, and I still am nominally a Christian.

Baptism is not an absolute proof that someone is born again. I am not dictating my beliefs, that is what the Bible says:

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22) On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' (23) And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


And you need to cite early church fathers who believed that baptism is absolute evidence that a person is born again. And Methodism, Lutheranism and Episcopalians are not part of the early church they were formed after the Reformation.

There no such thing as "nominal Christian". You are either a born-again, Holy Spirit filled Christian, or you are not. There is no middle ground. You claimed that Buddhists or Hindus can go to Heaven. *staff edit*

 

[Martinius]

The passage from Matthew 7 does not address being "born again"; rather it is one of my favorite passages because in it Jesus says it is not the person who calls out to the Lord or uses certain words about or to God, but the person who does "the will of the Father", who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Isn't it possible that we are placing too much emphasis on the idea of being "born again", especially how some interpret that? Where do we find this statement? In John 3 Jesus is talking to Nicodemus at night when he says this. It doesn't appear that Jesus is addressing other disciples, and certainly not any crowds of people. But this "requirement", so critical to some, is not found anywhere else in the New Testament. Not in the Gospels, not in the letters of Paul, not in Acts or in other Epistles. If this was so essential, why is it not found anywhere else in the NT? Why doesn't Jesus tell ALL of his disciples this at other times, or to the crowds when he preaches? If the Evangelists knew this was so important, why didn't they all include it in their writings? Why does Paul not make it part of his many exhortations to the various Christian communities he was involved with? What I also find interesting is that Jesus further explains what he means by saying one must be "born of water and Spirit". Like Baptism perhaps?

So we have just one instance in just one Gospel of Jesus talking to one person about being born again. Yet some consider that the pivotal requirement of anything to be found in the words of Jesus. Hmmm....

 

[FireDragon76]

You claimed that Buddhists or Hindus can go to Heaven.

Read what I said carefully, because I never said that.

Frankly, I have no desire to go to your heaven.

 

[FireDragon76]

So we have just one instance in just one Gospel of Jesus talking to one person about being born again. Yet some consider that the pivotal requirement of anything to be found in the words of Jesus. Hmmm....

Well, this is another case of understanding the Bible, what it is, and is not, helps a person to understand a passage. The Gospel of John is firstly a theological text, then a polemic. That's not to argue it's fact or fiction, but the primary aim is to catechize new Christians into the "mystery" of baptism by having the character (yes, character... because eyewitness history is not high on the list of priorities of this particular Gospel) of Jesus explain the mysteries of the faith. Now, if you are the average evangelical, you don't know what the heck that means, because your religion is tied up in 19th century sentimentality and emotionalism as its central rite... but to the ancients that were familiar with such religious rites of transformation, they knew that something like that was not about having an internal experience, but having an external rite done to you.

This is why I said much of the Bible is mythology. It transcends fact or fiction and simply goes into the realm of symbols and the subconscious in general. Fundamentalist religion makes the mistake of treating this symbolic or mystical language quite concretely... when it suits the primitive human drives to control fear.

 

[hedrick]

The OP is in a difficult position, and wants help from people that are likely to be sympathetic. People who disagree with the perspective of this group, whether on gays or Democrats or inerrancy, or whatever, are welcome to discuss their views in other threads. But please, not when someone has asked for personal help. Arguments over interpretation of Scripture are not helpful to them.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm left in a position figuring out if I can meaningfully call myself a Christian if I don't participate in a church community and I'm alienated by what happens at local churches.

I'm not sure what I am- I am baptized. If that means nothing to some people, there's not much I can do to change that.

How would I know if I were Spirit-filled or not? Is some kind of emotional experience evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit, or just a delusion caused by a combination of music and salesmanship? There's a reason I never went for that type of religion- I'm too intelligent. Lutherans don't believe you have to look inside to see evidence you have the Holy Spirit- it's just a fact of baptism, a promise Christ made through the Church that he must keep. And that works for me. Looking inside for holiness or inner experiences (like being "born again") is works-righteousness, and it is not trusting in Christ's all-sufficiency . I never pretended to be a holy person, far from it.

 

[graceandpeace]

I'm left in a position figuring out if I can meaningfully call myself a Christian if I don't participate in a church community and I'm alienated by what happens at local churches.

I'm not sure what I am- I am baptized. If that means nothing to some people, there's not much I can do to change that.

How would I know if I were Spirit-filled or not? Is some kind of emotional experience evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit, or just a delusion caused by a combination of music and salesmanship? There's a reason I never went for that type of religion- I'm too intelligent. Lutherans don't believe you have to look inside to see evidence you have the Holy Spirit- it's just a fact of baptism, a promise Christ made through the Church that he must keep. And that works for me. Looking inside for holiness or inner experiences (like being "born again") is works-righteousness, and it is not trusting in Christ's all-sufficiency . I never pretended to be a holy person, far from it.

The Lutherans (& others who agree with them) are right: baptism is the visible means we are made Christians, met with God's grace, etc.

I don't know what to say about the culture of many churches that calls for shiny, happy people, if you understand what I mean. I know I'm not holy, & trying to create appearances of such for church should exhaust anyone - not to mention its dishonest. My church often has a way of lifting my spirits, so I may show up a mess but leave at least a more at-peace mess.

I get the call to grow to be more like Jesus, but ultimately I don't think God cares much about whether I have it all "together," but whether I show mercy & believe others are just as worthy of mercy as I am.

On a related note, I have been struggling with the question of mercy & sacrifice (there was a post I made some time ago in TT) & recently I stumbled upon what I think is a good answer. I'll start another thread here in this forum with the link, but basically many Christians in the US still think of Jesus's sacrifice & subsequent Christian living as transactional, & that affects how Christians view others. It affects church culture & as noted in the post, politics. My takeaway is that, when we think of our faith in a transactional way, it makes us see God as a score-keeper & therefore we also become little score-keepers. Christians (& churches) instead need to be givers of mercy, because we received mercy. It is the transaction mentality that prevents us from being able to show mercy.

 

[grandvizier1006]

FireDragon, I had a different post here but I changed it. i don't know what happened at all of these churches you went to, but it seems like you didn't find a home in any of them. I'm sorry about that, but I'd ask that you not give up. If it doesn't offend you, I'd like to make a thread praying for you and your acquaintances.

 

[FireDragon76]

No, it doesn't offend me.

I feel better not going to church. I just don't feel into it, there was nothing edifying to me about going and listening to a tale of sin, guilt, and redemption that had little to do with my life, and I really felt little or no connection to God at church. The further I get away from church, the more I realize how psychically draining the experience really was. I guess from a Lutheran perspective, I'm a Christian due to my baptism and my feelings don't change that... and that's fine with me.

 

[Meowzltov]

I'm left in a position figuring out if I can meaningfully call myself a Christian if I don't participate in a church community and I'm alienated by what happens at local churches.

I'm not sure what I am- I am baptized. If that means nothing to some people, there's not much I can do to change that.

How would I know if I were Spirit-filled or not? Is some kind of emotional experience evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit, or just a delusion caused by a combination of music and salesmanship? There's a reason I never went for that type of religion- I'm too intelligent. Lutherans don't believe you have to look inside to see evidence you have the Holy Spirit- it's just a fact of baptism, a promise Christ made through the Church that he must keep. And that works for me. Looking inside for holiness or inner experiences (like being "born again") is works-righteousness, and it is not trusting in Christ's all-sufficiency . I never pretended to be a holy person, far from it.

In my own faith tradition, baptism makes you a Christian -- however, there is always the possibility of apostasy. So perhaps the question comes back to you: do you consider yourself a Christian or not?

There are other important questions you need to be asking yourself about Christianity. You've already been doing this, so I'm probably sounding dumb LOL. But honestly, it may help to keep a journal of your thoughts -- writing things down is different than thinking in our heads. "Do I want to be a Christian?" is a good question. You might make a list of all the pros and cons.

I am a highly intelligent woman, and I have no problem with incorporating an experiential base to my spirituality, so I don't think it's a matter of your intelligence. I think that there's just some of us feelers and some of us thinkers and it takes all kinds to make the world go round.

I think if you want to know if you are filled with the Holy Spirit you look for the fruits: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

My personal two cents? Throughout your life, Christianity has meant something to you -- I hope you will continue to embrace it to the fullest extent you can.

May God guide your footsteps on your journey.

 

[FireDragon76]

In my own faith tradition, baptism makes you a Christian -- however, there is always the possibility of apostasy. So perhaps the question comes back to you: do you consider yourself a Christian or not?

I guess in some small way, I am still a Christian. But, I find myself losing the desire to participate in Christian life or to try to think of the world in purely Christian terms.

I am a highly intelligent woman, and I have no problem with incorporating an experiential base to my spirituality, so I don't think it's a matter of your intelligence. I think that there's just some of us feelers and some of us thinkers and it takes all kinds to make the world go round.

I am a feeler too. My problem is the exact opposite. Intellectually, Christianity sounds good, which is one reason I was attracted to the very metaphysics-heavy forms of Christian belief (Eastern Orthodoxy), but my experiences of it are not so good. And I learned to trust my experiences a lot.

I think if you want to know if you are filled with the Holy Spirit you look for the fruits: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

I'm a sinner, far from perfect. But I don't beat myself up about it anymore.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I'm a sinner, far from perfect. But I don't beat myself up about it anymore.

To me this is the start of truth, to admit you are (in God's eyes) flawed and to accept that in your own effort you aren't going to make yourself "perfect" (sinless) by any actions you take. The next step is to just establish a relationship with God as a friend and start to trust in him as you can and with his leading and faith in him you can slowly drift from the less imperfect to the slightly more perfect and grow in faith while doing so.
One thing I tell folks when it comes to Christianity it is all about Jesus, and almost none about me. The more I learn about God the more I realize that if my understanding draws me further from him then I don't understand well enough. People get hung up on appearing to be "right with God" and fitting in with the "do and don'ts" or a groups rulebook and their efforts to conform... even keep score of how well they measure up with others. People also want others to confrom to rulebooks that they agree with themselves and try using methods.. even condemnation of those who are truly struggling with these rulebooks to make them feel "right" with God in man's eyes and failing. when the focus is more on the rules than on God then often the rulebook is what is being exalted or worshiped and God is pushed aside and our struggling faith in him starts to lose its power to help us in understanding sin and overcoming it such that we aren't necessarily less and less sinful but rather that sin is no longer ruling us but we are instead stumbling through it following a strong voice of God in who we believe.

 

[ScottA]

I mean, I'm baptized but... I'm not sure I really believe. Going to church just doesn't interest me, and I don't believe in a God that has churchgoing as a mandate for my life. I'm not even sure anymore what God I believe in.

I suppose I've arrived at this place realizing I have a lot of disgust. Politically, I don't fit in with either left or right. I believe strongly in civil liberties, I'm anti-authoritarian and don't believe in telling people what is the best way to live, because I believe those sorts of questions are best answered by the individual. I'm very unhappy with how Christians have handled the LGBT issue- it goes against my live and let live attitude, and my sensitivity towards my fellow human beings.

Most of all, I believe in compassion- that is my measure of somebody's morality, and I'm not sure this is really a Christian value at the end of the day. Compassion is more important than all the creeds in the world, and I'd mark somebody as closer to the Kingdom who had it, than somebody of faith who did not. I don't see many Christians willing to go the extra mile to understand somebody different from them. I see a lot of worship of religious tradition and orthodoxy over caring about real human beings.

We really don't know God, he's an incomprehensible mystery. The classical western theology is absurd, even ridiculous, and can't be taken seriously by intelligent people. Believing in an all-powerful benevolent God is simply absurd. This is properly the "Hidden God" spoken of by Luther. The God that brings anxiety rather than comfort, or more often, delusional projections (the angry God of many authoritarians). God is hidden and not seen. So, how can you love the God you don't see when you don't love the brother you do see? (the whole point of James passage is relevant, denouncing religiosity for its own sake) So the way I see it, Christians, as followers of Jesus, should be a humanistic religion more like Confucianism or Taoism, with God and his will left a mystery, and focused on the human predicament.

Seriously...you sound spoiled, like you believe the red carpet should be rolled out for you. That [HELLO!] is not the reality of this world. We were kicked out of the nest, for our own shortcomings, and we either learn to fly, or crash and burn.

You have been offered wings. That's compassion. You want to pass - then pass. Otherwise, get over it.

As for compassion among Christians, Christians are the most giving group of people on the planet.

As for knowing God - we know God - apparently, you speak for yourself, because you do not.

As for being unseen - Him showing you yourself, before you get to see Him...is compassion. And these back lashings of yours...is you seeing you and your fellow man. Way to go!

 

[FireDragon76]

That [HELLO!] is not the reality of this world. We were kicked out of the nest, for our own shortcomings, and we either learn to fly, or crash and burn.

I'm curious how this assertion reconciles with belief in an omnibenevolent creator. It sounds more like cruelty than love.

As for compassion among Christians, Christians are the most giving group of people on the planet.

Christians are just like any other religious group in that area. Sometimes they give with one hand and take away with the other. I am reminded of a quote I heard a long time ago. "you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion". I've met a lot of religious people that are basically good, but do bad things because their religions doctrines have told them its the right thing to do.

Compassion is not just about giving material goods- any affluent person can do that at little personal cost, but being willing to admit you are wrong and your actions are hurting other people. Christians, in my experience, are slow to admit wrongdoing on the part of themselves.

 

[ScottA]

I'm curious how this assertion reconciles with belief in an omnibenevolent creator. It sounds more like cruelty than love.

Everyone gets a second chance. Call it what you will.

Christians are just like any other religious group in that area. Sometimes they give with one hand and take away with the other. I am reminded of a quote I heard a long time ago. "you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion". I've met a lot of religious people that are basically good, but do bad things because their religions doctrines have told them its the right thing to do.

Compassion is not just about giving material goods- any affluent person can do that at little personal cost, but being willing to admit you are wrong and your actions are hurting other people. Christians, in my experience, are slow to admit wrongdoing on the part of themselves.

So...you don't like a lot of people. Good for you.

 

[FireDragon76]

Everyone gets a second chance. Call it what you will.
So...you don't like a lot of people. Good for you.

No, I don't. If anything actually makes me believe in a doctrine like total depravity, it's my own experiences.

 

[ScottA]

No, I don't. If anything actually makes me believe in a doctrine like total depravity, it's my own experiences.

There is a way up - some may push you, but nobody's going to drag you.

 

[hedrick]

No, it doesn't offend me.

I feel better not going to church. I just don't feel into it, there was nothing edifying to me about going and listening to a tale of sin, guilt, and redemption that had little to do with my life, and I really felt little or no connection to God at church. The further I get away from church, the more I realize how psychically draining the experience really was. I guess from a Lutheran perspective, I'm a Christian due to my baptism and my feelings don't change that... and that's fine with me.

I guess you can be a Christian without going to Church. But surely you can find a church that isn't mostly about sin and guilt.