I'm not sure I'm a Christian anymore

[Meowzltov]

No, it doesn't offend me.

I feel better not going to church. I just don't feel into it, there was nothing edifying to me about going and listening to a tale of sin, guilt, and redemption that had little to do with my life, and I really felt little or no connection to God at church. The further I get away from church, the more I realize how psychically draining the experience really was. I guess from a Lutheran perspective, I'm a Christian due to my baptism and my feelings don't change that... and that's fine with me.

Is it because you are opposed to people explaining to you that you sin and need redemption? I mean, even liberal churches teach this.

 

[FireDragon76]

Is it because you are opposed to people explaining to you that you sin and need redemption? I mean, even liberal churches teach this.

I don't particularly like hearing it. It's like going up to somebody that's been mugged and reminding them of what a horrible human being they are because they walked on the grass or drove 5 mph over the speed limit. It comes across as the actions of a bully.

It could also be I have Asperger's. I don't resonate with the same things most other people do. And things people automatically see as significant, I don't necessarily see as significant- I might notice something completely different (think of Sherlock Holmes and you get an idea what I mean). And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, I can't just automatically take things other people take as a given. I ask a lot of questions, too, again it's probably related to Asperger's. The usual subtle pressures, the carrots and stick to believe that many religious groups seem to exert on people doesn't really resonate with me. I just don't find churchiness edifying, and that's a flaw with conventional religion because as near as I can tell, there's always been a segment of the population that has similar minds to my own.

I sent a message to the member services saying I'd like to change my faith label back to "Christian"... I hope they change it back. I just don't like how people here feel that because you have a Christian label, they have a right to lecture you ("disciple"), ignoring the diversity within the label "Christian" (and I find the idea we are all one big Christian family that should be on the same page, ridiculous: Christianity is not a monolith). But I have noticed as of late people are not respecting the guidelines for WWMC.

 

[AllanV]

I mean, I'm baptized but... I'm not sure I really believe. Going to church just doesn't interest me, and I don't believe in a God that has churchgoing as a mandate for my life. I'm not even sure anymore what God I believe in.

I suppose I've arrived at this place realizing I have a lot of disgust. Politically, I don't fit in with either left or right. I believe strongly in civil liberties, I'm anti-authoritarian and don't believe in telling people what is the best way to live, because I believe those sorts of questions are best answered by the individual. I'm very unhappy with how Christians have handled the LGBT issue- it goes against my live and let live attitude, and my sensitivity towards my fellow human beings.

Most of all, I believe in compassion- that is my measure of somebody's morality, and I'm not sure this is really a Christian value at the end of the day. Compassion is more important than all the creeds in the world, and I'd mark somebody as closer to the Kingdom who had it, than somebody of faith who did not. I don't see many Christians willing to go the extra mile to understand somebody different from them. I see a lot of worship of religious tradition and orthodoxy over caring about real human beings.

We really don't know God, he's an incomprehensible mystery. The classical western theology is absurd, even ridiculous, and can't be taken seriously by intelligent people. Believing in an all-powerful benevolent God is simply absurd. This is properly the "Hidden God" spoken of by Luther. The God that brings anxiety rather than comfort, or more often, delusional projections (the angry God of many authoritarians). God is hidden and not seen. So, how can you love the God you don't see when you don't love the brother you do see? (the whole point of James passage is relevant, denouncing religiosity for its own sake) So the way I see it, Christians, as followers of Jesus, should be a humanistic religion more like Confucianism or Taoism, with God and his will left a mystery, and focused on the human predicament.

I am able to empathize and know exactly what you are saying. There was never any involvement in religion all though I was baptized at 19 because of my mothers insistence. The preaching prior to the baptism was listened to and the decision was made that there was nothing wrong in accepting that a man Jesus died for my sins and rose again.
The church was attended 3 times and then I went tramping and worked. At 26 some rural property was purchased with my wife. It was quiet and a good life with few distractions and after all the work some time off left me completely rested.
One day while working at some wood work my mind was opened up to know God and this changed me for ever hopefully. The Bible became an absorbing interest and then Christianity but had to leave it alone because it did not match the experience that had occurred or the understanding of the scriptures.
A few experiences have occurred and God and the Bible are true but have found it best to keep away from religions.
God is very close and is like an observer in a mind a little deeper and beyond the mind that is usually thought from. To Know God is to see the mind of an immortal.
People tend to bond mentally and this mind activity absorbs, depletes and also builds a barrier to knowing God. God is an energizing Spirit and each person needs to use a personal power to interact with others.

Perhaps you need to live a few years in a quiet place away from extended family and friends. Follow your intuition carefully and perhaps it is to make a move.

 

[hedrick]

I don't particularly like hearing it. It's like going up to somebody that's been mugged and reminding them of what a horrible human being they are because they walked on the grass or drove 5 mph over the speed limit. It comes across as the actions of a bully.

It could also be I have Asperger's. I don't resonate with the same things most other people do.

You're not the only person with Asperger's. Our church has at least 4 people that are on the spectrum. The two adults are leaders, and the teens are moving in that direction. I have some tendencies in that direction myself.

I cringe when I read the descriptions many people give of churches they’ve been involved in. It’s true, as Open Heart said, that even liberal Christian churches see Jesus as savior. But I would see savior in the broadest sense, as restoring the world. In his ministry, Jesus was more about enlisting people in his mission to establish the Kingdom than about judging them for their shortcomings. If you look at the parables and other teachings about judgement, he mostly attacks people who are useless or who abuse others, not people who are imperfect.

 

[Meowzltov]

I don't particularly like hearing it. It's like going up to somebody that's been mugged and reminding them of what a horrible human being they are because they walked on the grass or drove 5 mph over the speed limit. It comes across as the actions of a bully.

Sorry that you are an Aspie. My son is autistic and I myself am bipolar, so I know what its like to have an uphill battle.

An ideal church (yeah right, no church ever is ideal, but anyhow) an IDEAL church will find the balance between assuring you that God loves you as you are and teaching you that God calls you to something higher. We all of us have times where we lose our patience, lie, cheat, use people, cut corners unethically... If we don't struggle with those little things, we slowly slide into worse things. Also, being a good person isn't just refraining from sin. It's also doing good -- feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned (those are the classics). We can sin from our inaction, and LOTS of Christians are guilty of this.

If you feel like you already have most sins under control, perhaps a church that stresses social justice might be more up your line. In fact the more I think about it, the more I suspect this is a good suggestion for you.

 

[ScottA]

All this talk about the perfect church for this person or that person troubles me.

We should not be supportive in this way. Jesus, in a similar [enough] situation, said, "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead." Matthew 8:22 Sounds harsh, but I would consider it more effective...like: "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Matthew 6:33

I recommend finding a church that caters to none, and applies nothing to this worldly life - but preaches the good news of the coming of Christ "to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed" Luke 4:18, and that tells of and shares the infectious character of God.

 

[FireDragon76]

If you feel like you already have most sins under control, perhaps a church that stresses social justice might be more up your line. In fact the more I think about it, the more I suspect this is a good suggestion for you.

I am basically Lutheran in my views on this matter. "Sin control" is pointless, like playing "whack a mole", hit one sin and another pops up. That can leave you with a sense of despair in the end, a terrible place to be.

And I don't believe in a God that keeps score.

I think I would have liked a more social justice oriented church. I have read alot about liberation theology, and it makes sense to me. But its hard to find one where I live, where that is something that is important.

 

[Meowzltov]

I am basically Lutheran in my views on this matter. "Sin control" is pointless, like playing "whack a mole", hit one sin and another pops up. That can leave you with a sense of despair in the end, a terrible place to be.

And I don't believe in a God that keeps score.

I think I would have liked a more social justice oriented church. I have read alot about liberation theology, and it makes sense to me. But its hard to find one where I live, where that is something that is important.

Liberation theology is Catholic. It went out of popularity for a while, but with Francis, socialist possibilities are being reconsidered. The Catholic church is VERY strong on social justice issues and charities. Catholic Worker comes to mind. And I think Catholic Charities is considered one of the two best run charities in the country (the other one being the salvation army). However, the Catholic church (like the Salvation Army) is balanced: it deals with people's flawed natures as well.

Seeing as how I'm Catholic and I work at the Salvation Army, I get a chance to toot my own horn.

 

[FireDragon76]

Liberation theology is not just Catholic, at least not anymore. In fact the grandfather of that theology, Jurgen Moltmann, was Protestant (I think he was a member of the EKD in the Reformed tradition). It became associated with Catholicism because in Latin America a lot of intellectuals were looking for a theology that made sense of the inequality found there. But the original impetus was responding to the suffering and horrors of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.

There are some Lutheran theologians that are involved in liberation theology and I would say it has an influence in the ELCA. But, the local Lutheran synod doesn't seem very influenced by it, beyond how it has shaped common Lutheran liturgical materials.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Liberation theology is not just Catholic, at least not anymore. In fact the grandfather of that theology, Jurgen Moltmann, was Protestant (I think he was a member of the EKD in the Reformed tradition). It became associated with Catholicism because in Latin America a lot of intellectuals were looking for a theology that made sense of the inequality found there. But the original impetus was responding to the suffering and horrors of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.

There are some Lutheran theologians that are involved in liberation theology and I would say it has an influence in the ELCA. But, the local Lutheran synod doesn't seem very influenced by it, beyond how it has shaped common Lutheran liturgical materials.

So go join the ELCA. With various denominations to choose from I think you'll inevitably find one that fits. Also consider specific churches. I've gone to several different PCA churches over the years and they're all very different.

 

[FireDragon76]

So go join the ELCA. With various denominations to choose from I think you'll inevitably find one that fits. Also consider specific churches. I've gone to several different PCA churches over the years and they're all very different.

I have attended an ELCA church in the past but the congregation is mostly made of elderly people and the pastor is not interested in liberation theology. In fact he said it was Marxism. He also is fairly conservative about a great many things. He grew up in the LCMS, so maybe that has influenced him a lot. It's still a lot better than going to a lot of churches around here, but its just the same basic message being softpedalled.

Your experience in the PCA is fairly typical, in my experience mainline denominations are not monolithic. There's a great deal of variance in preaching and teaching, and what region of the country you live in has a lot to do with what message you will hear from the pulpit.

It sounds like GraceandPeace, for instance, is going to a good Episcopal church that fits well with the general mood of the national church, but down here Episcopalians are mostly aligned with the Diocese of Sydney, which are more like conservative Presbyterians or Southern Baptists in many ways. I was pretty disappointed after how they handled a gay couple wanting to baptize their son (they were from New York state and moved to Florida), and that turned me off from wanting to attend.

 

[grandvizier1006]

I have attended an ELCA church in the past but the congregation is mostly made of elderly people and the pastor is not interested in liberation theology. In fact he said it was Marxism. He also is fairly conservative about a great many things. He grew up in the LCMS, so maybe that has influenced him a lot. It's still a lot better than going to a lot of churches around here, but its just the same basic message being softpedalled.

Your experience in the PCA is fairly typical, in my experience mainline denominations are not monolithic. There's a great deal of variance in preaching and teaching, and what region of the country you live in has a lot to do with what message you will hear from the pulpit.

It sounds like GraceandPeace, for instance, is going to a good Episcopal church that fits well with the general mood of the national church, but down here Episcopalians are mostly aligned with the Diocese of Sydney, which are more like conservative Presbyterians or Southern Baptists in many ways. I was pretty disappointed after how they handled a gay couple wanting to baptize their son (they were from New York state and moved to Florida), and that turned me off from wanting to attend.

Where in Florida is the diocese of Sydney? The "red" or "blue" part of the state? That probably affects things. Also, how exactly they did the church react in a way you didn't like? I ask because I think it would help know what your biggest hang-ups are.

 

[FireDragon76]

Where in Florida is the diocese of Sydney? The "red" or "blue" part of the state? That probably affects things. Also, how exactly they did the church react in a way you didn't like? I ask because I think it would help know what your biggest hang-ups are.

The Diocese of Sydney is in Australia. Some conservative Anglican/Episcopalian provinces maintain closer ties with churches outside their provincial boundaries than they do with the national church, I don't care for the practice- it's not so much uncanonical as just distasteful.

The Diocese of Central Florida is also aligned with Trinity Divinity School, I believe it's up north in Ohio (?)... at any rate it's a very conservative institution that has limited influence in the Episcopal church. The theology has more in common with conservative Presbyterians and Baptists than mainstream Episopalians.

I listened to cringeworthy sermons at the cathedral. Steeped in Reformational rhetoric that felt as out-of-date as King James English. Just not interesting to me, or helpful. And the rituals of historic Christianity is more a sideshow to an evangelical focus I associate more with Baptist churches in the South. Don't even get me started on the charismatic congregations I visited, I really found them problematic.

 

[grandvizier1006]

The Diocese of Sydney is in Australia. Some conservative Anglican/Episcopalian provinces maintain closer ties with churches outside their provincial boundaries than they do with the national church, I don't care for the practice- it's not so much uncanonical as just distasteful.

The Diocese of Central Florida is also aligned with Trinity Divinity School, I believe it's up north in Ohio (?)... at any rate it's a very conservative institution that has limited influence in the Episcopal church. The theology has more in common with conservative Presbyterians and Baptists than mainstream Episopalians.

I listened to cringeworthy sermons at the cathedral. Steeped in Reformational rhetoric that felt as out-of-date as King James English. Just not interesting to me, or helpful. And the rituals of historic Christianity is more a sideshow to an evangelical focus I associate more with Baptist churches in the South. Don't even get me started on the charismatic congregations I visited, I really found them problematic.

Could you give some specifics with the rhetoric and whatnot? I have a good idea of what you don't like in a church, but I think it would be helpful for us all to have as many details as possible.

 

[Hoghead1]

Liberation theology is not just Catholic, at least not anymore. In fact the grandfather of that theology, Jurgen Moltmann, was Protestant (I think he was a member of the EKD in the Reformed tradition). It became associated with Catholicism because in Latin America a lot of intellectuals were looking for a theology that made sense of the inequality found there. But the original impetus was responding to the suffering and horrors of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.

There are some Lutheran theologians that are involved in liberation theology and I would say it has an influence in the ELCA. But, the local Lutheran synod doesn't seem very influenced by it, beyond how it has shaped common Lutheran liturgical materials.

Yes, but liberation theology was also very much anticipated by the famous American Lutheran pastor Walter Rauschenbusch and the "social gospel." Also, it is very much championed by Afro-American theologians such as James Cone at Union Theological Seminary and also Dr. Martin Luther King.

 

[FireDragon76]

Could you give some specifics with the rhetoric and whatnot? I have a good idea of what you don't like in a church, but I think it would be helpful for us all to have as many details as possible.

Well, the preaching was often presented in a way to show Protestant doctrines in contrast to Catholic ones. Not overtly but anybody with a brain could see it. I just found it not very useful. The problems and questions people face or ask now days are not necessarily the same as the 18th century. A lot of the priests at the cathedral had their training at the local conservative Reformed seminary.

Probably the best preaching was from a priest who was from New York originally - had been everywhere, and spent a lot of time working in an Anglo-Catholic parish. But he retired. He was a conservative sort and we had talked and he knew where I was coming from at least, and he had life experiences to his credit. The rest of the priests had too much of an insular background to really be somebody I could consider speaking with authority.

I think the congregation was the sort of type that were just Episcopalian out of habit, socially conservative, that sort of thing. Maybe it was relevant to them to hear the same stuff decade after decade.

Most of the best Episcopalian preachers I have heard have been women. Which is too bad because down here several of the churches don't allow women to preach.

And, in case you don't know, at most larger Episcopalian churches, preaching duties are rotated between the priests. So you do not always get consistent messages, especially because its not uncommon in Episcopalian churches for clergy to come from completely different theological perspectives or ways of doing church. It just depends on what the vestry or bishop wants, sometimes they just don't care.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Well, the preaching was often presented in a way to show Protestant doctrines in contrast to Catholic ones. Not overtly but anybody with a brain could see it. I just found it not very useful. The problems and questions people face or ask now days are not necessarily the same as the 18th century. A lot of the priests at the cathedral had their training at the local conservative Reformed seminary.

Probably the best preaching was from a priest who was from New York originally - had been everywhere, and spent a lot of time working in an Anglo-Catholic parish. But he retired. He was a conservative sort and we had talked and he knew where I was coming from at least, and he had life experiences to his credit. The rest of the priests had too much of an insular background to really be somebody I could consider speaking with authority.

I think the congregation was the sort of type that were just Episcopalian out of habit, socially conservative, that sort of thing. Maybe it was relevant to them to hear the same stuff decade after decade.

Most of the best Episcopalian preachers I have heard have been women. Which is too bad because down here several of the churches don't allow women to preach.

And, in case you don't know, at most larger Episcopalian churches, preaching duties are rotated between the priests. So you do not always get consistent messages, especially because its not uncommon in Episcopalian churches for clergy to come from completely different theological perspectives or ways of doing church. It just depends on what the vestry or bishop wants, sometimes they just don't care.

Catholic-bashing is annoying, I agree. Churches should not be in the business of bashing each other. That sounds like something redneck hicks in backwoods places would do, but I guess it's not limited to them.

I didn't even know you were "allowed", socially, to be a conservative episcopalian. I use quotations because I assume it would be nominally permitted but quietly discoursged.

I've heard various experiences regarding female pastors. Some great, some terrible. I think I'm ok with female pastors as long as they are not there because they're women. Churches are not college campuses and can't afford "diversity" on purpose.

The idea of rotating preachers doesn't sound good. Maybe that's because I come from churches where the pastor is pretty much always the same unless he's sick or away for some reason, but having a bunch of people speak with very different views or messages would be very confusing.

For my family, the pastor pretty much IS the church (shouldn't be that way, but that's how it is). How are you supposed to determine if the doctrine is sound (or just to your liking) if the pastor changes each time?

Are there any churches you can find with a consistent pastor? I think you might want to try churches based on atmosphere and character. I know you have specific beliefs but I think since you've had little luck with Episcopal churches you could try pretty much everything that isn't full of rednecks or only caters to a specific ethnic group (I don't mean to bash those churches but some churches tend to be Orthodox and have all Romanian/Russian members, or a Catholic Church that does everything in Spanish, etc.).

 

[grandvizier1006]

Also, try the "looking for a church" section on CF. The People there seem to be very helpful with that stuff.

 

[FireDragon76]

Catholic-bashing is annoying, I agree. Churches should not be in the business of bashing each other. That sounds like something redneck hicks in backwoods places would do, but I guess it's not limited to them.

I never witnessed the overt bashing of Catholics. Just the polemical use of doctrines derived from religious debates hundreds of years ago. For some conservative, confessional Protestants, that's part of their identity, a way for themselves to believe they are doing the right thing by echoing things their forefathers said. But I've been involved with so many Christian groups in my life (a Lutheran church, many Protestant, some Catholic, some Orthodox) I find it tiresome and unhelpful. And it's not typical of most Episcopalians, who have a far less polemical view of other Christian bodies and usually try to emphasize what Christians share in common.

I didn't even know you were "allowed", socially, to be a conservative episcopalian. I use quotations because I assume it would be nominally permitted but quietly discoursged.

Yes, there are conservative Episcopalians. The Episcopal church is a mainline church, which means there's actually more diversity there than is often casually noticed. Due to the way the Episcopal church's governance works, conservative dioceses or sometimes even priests have a great deal of autonomy.

Churches are not college campuses and can't afford "diversity" on purpose.

On this forum, most of us consider diversity important, to varying degrees. We like to see the diversity of the community reflected in the clergy. It's not a matter of catering to worldliness necessarily, we really see it as an issue of justice. Women have legitimate perspectives and preaching that is only from a male perspective impoverishes the community.

For my family, the pastor pretty much IS the church (shouldn't be that way, but that's how it is). How are you supposed to determine if the doctrine is sound (or just to your liking) if the pastor changes each time?

In the Episcopal church, the clergy are not usually the center of church life. Nevertheless, preaching can be offputting, especially if you are like me, not raised in that tradition and have little ties to the church community. To be honest I think most Episcopalians in the area go to that denomination because that's the way they were raised, and their family and friends are there (after all, at one time the Episcopal Church was a prominent institution in the south if you were educated and affluent, at the churches around here echo that to a degree) I'm not saying that's bad... it's just different, and not something I can relate to, and certainly not a reason for me to be in that denomination.

I actually did attend a church for a while where Spanish was spoken, at least during part of the service. Since I speak Spanish, it was not a big deal. It was a liberal Catholic church (independent old Catholic). But in the end, I am not sure I am Catholic enough. It was sad to leave but there were a few doctrines and practices I did not feel very comfortable with (I don't believe in Roman Catholic doctrines of purgatory, I don't believe in the distinction between mortal and venial sins, and I have a more Lutheran or modernist understanding of the role of private confession).

The sad thing about that particular catholic church- the preaching there was actually fairly good most of the time. Short sermons, the emphasis was on social justice. I had come right out of being an orthodox catechumen and feeling rejected by that parish after several years of attending that church (a long story I won't go into). In the end, I just didn't feel catholic enough, there were enough differences that it didn't feel comfortable. I loved the church, I respected the people there, I just felt like I was a guest observing somebody else's family. My real family didn't want me anymore, that's how it felt... so I stopped kidding myself and didn't attend church at all for a while.

 

[lismore]

I do have a church that I go to and my family is Christian. The church I go to is not one I like though as much now. There is almost no community and people just go to go I think.

'Community'. That's a good word. Sharing real life with people, where you can be yourself. Too much Christianity is impersonal meetings, abstract principles. God Bless