If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BobRyan]

While you are at it ask them to show why they think the Sabbath Day commandment is "moral law" when logically speaking I cannot fathom why it wouldn't be considered ceremonial instead.

The majority of even pro-sunday scholarship admits that the Sabbath Commandment is part of the TEN commmandments and it defines what is and is not obedience - what is and is not sin.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW " 1 John 3:4

Here is how one of them makes that point "from the text" of scripture.

D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

 

[BobRyan]

duplicate

 

[BobRyan]

A simple question for those here who are opposed to God's Commandments.

what "Commandments" what "LAW" is this where the 5th commandment is the FIRST one with a promise??

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

In what well-known unit of law - is there such an arrangement as is stated in Eph 6 - by Paul???

We wait....

 

[Alawishis]

That has been done repeatedly -

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law" - The LAW that defines sin is what determines what is and is not moral.

Rom 3:19-20 "19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

The LAW of God defines what is and what is not - sin.

A Bible detail so incredibly obvious that even the pro-sunday scholars who support the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and even "Dies Domini" -- all admit to this "detail".

As also James 2 points out for us.

in Christ,

Bob

I like your answer BobRyan.

He's correct in that it's not called, "the moral law" in scripture. They aren't called the Decalogue in scripture either that's just a name given because of what it is. It's a list of laws telling us what is sin, therefore morality is defined. That's why it's called the moral law. The laws about health we call the health laws even though they are never called that in scripture. Here are the categories of laws giving:

Civil Laws - Laws that give guidance to the running of the nation of Israel
Health Laws - Laws governing cleanliness and what you should eat and not eat.
Moral Laws - 10 commandments tells is what is sin as defined by God.
Ceremonial (Sacrificial) Laws - include priestly laws as those in Leviticus & laws that involve worship and sacrifice.

Some people break it up like this:
Law of Moses - The law Moses wrote on scrolls (civil, health, ceremonial) and hung them on the outside of the arc.
Law of God - Written by God on tablets of stone by God's own hand. Were kept inside the arc of the covenant. Where the presence of God was manifest.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Ex-Gentiles are now included as part of God's chosen people by faith (1 Peter 2:9-10). There are instances, such as with the flood, that people who are not God's people were held accountable for violating God's laws, but I'm not sure that laws specifically in regard to holiness are counted among them. God called His people to be set apart and to live at a higher standard of conduct.

The Bible makes no distinctions between moral, civil, and ceremonial laws, but rather it considers breaking any of them to be a sin (1 John 3:4). It can be useful to us to create categories to group laws into, but that particular set of categories is really a misnomer because it wrongly implies that civil and ceremonial laws aren't also moral laws.

Ex-Gentiles? I've never heard this expression in the Bible as Paul and Peter have both considered BELIEVERS that are Gentiles...... still Gentiles.
As for your idea of moral vs ceremonial it is the SDA folks that have this issue about ceremonial vs moral if you aren't one of them them I'm not talking to you about it.

 

[Sophrosyne]

All of God's laws are inherently moral laws.

So in other words if you break any of 613 of God's laws you are immoral.... ok.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do, not necessarily in regard to what we ought to do all the time. We always ought to obey God, so all of God's commands are inherently moral commands, but that doesn't mean that God's commands can't be based on circumstances. For instance, there are circumstances where killing is morally wrong and when it is morally justified. So when circumstances are that it is the 7th day, it is always morally wrong for God's people to disobey His command to keep the Sabbath regardless of human opinion.

So how do you decide NOT to do any of the 613 "moral" commandments?

 

[Sophrosyne]

The majority of even pro-sunday scholarship admits that the Sabbath Commandment is part of the TEN commmandments and it defines what is and is not obedience - what is and is not sin.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW " 1 John 3:4

Here is how one of them makes that point "from the text" of scripture.

D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

still doesn't explain why the separation of moral vs cermonial laws and how a ceremonial law is moral etc.

 

[Soyeong]

Ex-Gentiles? I've never heard this expression in the Bible as Paul and Peter have both considered BELIEVERS that are Gentiles...... still Gentiles.
As for your idea of moral vs ceremonial it is the SDA folks that have this issue about ceremonial vs moral if you aren't one of them them I'm not talking to you about it.

"Gentile" refers to someone is a foreigner or a heathen, and those who become believers are neither (Ephesians 2:19). The idea of moral, civil, and ceremonial laws is common not just among SDA folks. As a Baptist I used to believe the same thing, but the reality is that morality is in regard to what ought to be done and God ought to be obeyed, so all of God's commands are moral commands. It would be immoral for Moses to violate civil and ceremonial laws.

So in other words if you break any of 613 of God's laws you are immoral.... ok.

Sinning is immoral and God's law defines what sin is, so breaking any of them is a sin and something that we need forgiveness for.

So how do you decide NOT to do any of the 613 "moral" commandments?

For one, I'm not a woman, so I don't follow the laws in regard to menstrual cycles or giving birth. I'm also not a king, high priest, or priest, so I don't need to follow laws in regard to their duties. There is no temple, so I don't need to follow laws that govern temple services. If someone who lives in California moves to another State, then they no longer need to follow California State laws, so I also don't need to follow laws for people living in the land. It takes prayer and discernment to determine which laws are applicable to me today, but I am morally obligated to obey laws that are applicable.

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

We wait....

Indeed, been waiting for a long time.

If Jesus gave us the Ten Commandments, who gave us the other 603 Commandments?

Could you show me where the Bible [KJB] delineates the specific number "613" [a talmudic/rabbinical concept] in regards commandments anywhere in all of scripture, OT/NT.

I will wait.

Scripture does specifically delineate The "Ten Commandments" - Exodus 20:2-17; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 10:4, and the "Two" Greatest - Love to God - Deuteronomy 6:5, and Love to Neighbour - Leviticus 19:17-18, both of which relate directly to the Ten Commandments, see context of both statements there and from that Jesus and Paul, etc quotes from. Of the two greatest, Jesus spake of the "first" [Mark 12:30] and of the "second" [Mark 12:31], which He designated as these "two" [Matthew 22:40]. Paul even speaks of "all the law" as being "one word" [Galatians 5:14]. Paul also mentions the "first commandment" [Ephesians 6:2] with a promise on the second table of stone. In the OT, there is also mention of "one law" [Exodus 12:49; Numbers 15:16, etc], even also called "all this law" [Deuteronomy 4:8].

Still waiting on this one too.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?

Christ freed us from the Law--meaning the entire Law of Moses, there were no ten commandments until Mount Sinai. Instead, we have a new law: The law of freedom in Christ.

As Christians we do not live according to laws or by constantly checking our flesh to see if we are righteous. Paul made it VERY clear that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ. We don't need a list of commandments, because trying to please God through our flesh doesn't work: The entire OT taught us that. We live by faith in God, and his spirit leads us on the path of life. So don't come on here trying to convince Christians to be under a yoke again, we are free in Christ, and if you don't like that teaching you need to reexamine where your righteousness comes from.

Yes, we keep the commands of Christ, but only through faith in him. The moment you start making a list of rules is the moment you stop putting faith in him.

 

[Soyeong]

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?

Saying we should obey the law is not the same as being under the law. The law is how we know what sin is (Romans 7:7) and Paul said that being under grace does not mean we are to sin (Romans 6:15), so he did not consider not being under to law to mean free from its holy, righteous, and good instruction (Romans 7:12).

Christ freed us from the Law--meaning the entire Law of Moses, there were no ten commandments until Mount Sinai. Instead, we have a new law: The law of freedom in Christ.

If you think the law was only given to Jews, then why would Christ need to free us from the law? No, Christ freed us from sin, not from instructions that identify what sin is. We are freed from sin so that we can be free to not sin, not so that we can be free to sin. Also, the Sabbath was commanded in Exodus 16 before Sinai.

As Christians we do not live according to laws or by constantly checking our flesh to see if we are righteous. Paul made it VERY clear that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ. We don't need a list of commandments, because trying to please God through our flesh doesn't work: The entire OT taught us that. We live by faith in God, and his spirit leads us on the path of life. So don't come on here trying to convince Christians to be under a yoke again, we are free in Christ, and if you don't like that teaching you need to reexamine where your righteousness comes from.

The law was always intended to be kept by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) in a way that built a relationship between God and His people and God always disdained in when His people outwardly obeyed His law while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 1:13-17, Isaiah 29:13, Mark 7:6-13). The law was never given as the way for us to become justified, but rather it was given to instruct the conduct of how God wanted those who have been saved to behave. We are to obey the law not to become saved, but because we have been saved. Christ kept the law perfectly and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21), walk as he walked (1 John 2:6), and to imitate him (1 Corinthians 11:1). The law is the way that brings rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16-19) and the role of the Spirit is to lead us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). A "yoke" is a rabbinic term that referred to the way that a rabbi's taught to obey the law, so when Jesus said his yoke was easy and his burden was light and that it brings rest for our souls, he was talking about the correct way to obey the law (Matthew 11:29-30). He contrasted this by saying that the Pharisees tied up heavy burdens (Matthew 23:4), in reference to their many traditions for how to keep the law that perverted it into legalism. Again, the freedom we have in Christ is the freedom to obey God's instructions, not the freedom to disregard them.

Yes, we keep the commands of Christ, but only through faith in him. The moment you start making a list is the moment you stop putting faith in him.

This makes no sense because listing the commands of Christ would mean that you would stop putting faith in him. Even the four commands in Acts 15:20 are a list from the law, but then somehow Christ freed you from having to keep those too? No, there is a difference between keeping a command because you are trying to merit favor and keeping a command because you love God and trust Him to lead you into doing what is right, and this doesn't change regardless of how many laws you list. God's law was always meant to be kept by faith and love and trying to become justified by keeping it through your own merits is a perversion of it.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

We have righteousness and freedom in Christ, and you suggest we should have our eyes on the law? The law is an all or nothing type of deal, if you can't keep it perfectly then its only use is to condemn you.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Let me ask you, do you feel good about yourself observing the law? Are you observing the law to please God? If you are, you are actually condemning yourself before him. The ONLY way to please God is faith in Jesus Christ: Your observance of the law can not and does not please God!

Galatians 3:24-25
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

 

[ClothedInGrace]

The Jewish converts of Paul's day were all trying to get the gentiles to observe the law, and what was Paul's response? NO! The entire third chapter of Galatians is dedicated to this issue. If you have problems in your conscious and cannot be satisfied in Jesus without the law, then that's your problem, but that doesn't mean we all need the law too. I am righteous in Christ alone-- I don't need the law! And when the time comes for a decision to be made about whether to do something sinful or not, the Holy Spirit and my love for Christ will lead me-- not the law.

 

[Heifer]

The Law condemns us because we cannot keep it perfectly. This is not the same as taking account of the Law as some kind of guide to knowing what is sin, and knowing what is righteousness. If 'grace' and 'faith in Jesus' is the replacement for such knowledge, then why do we even bother to preserve written record of the Law? Would the human race (or at least Christians) really be better of we were to burn all copies of the Law, and to never print any more copies? And, instead of the host of words of the Law, we could just write in its place at most a few utterly non-specific, impossibly vague, short paragraphs 'about' what that hots of words actually were: And God said, Blah blah blah (and we have removed any of the actual words identifying what any part of the Law was, because 'the Law' is useless, because...)

...if by any person's use of the term, "the Law" is supposed to always mean "Never Violating Any of The Law", then of course we fail to keep it, even when we ever try in earnest to keep it all, since we all are children of Adam.

But, then, why did God even bother to give the Law in the first place? Why did He bother to say anything of it? To lead us astray into legalism? Is the Old Covenant a covenant of legalism? Was God commanding us to run headlong (or even at all go down) the road of legalism???

We violate some of the Law, and at least occasionally continue to violate various parts of it, whether by simply failing those parts, and/or by failing to perfectly. And in some cases, this or that person may barely at all understand what those parts are about: what God meant by the verbatim by which He directly expressed those parts.

From what I gather, the Levitical priests were to be the primary go-to guys for the people of Israel to more fully understand the Law; That is, for different persons who fail to quite understand some parts of the Law to be helped to better understand it. But, of course, even the Levitical priests were children of Adam, so even their understanding was not necessarily complete, and even the Law provided for them as sinners as well: how they themselves were to go about the ceremonial (symbolic) parts of the Law on their own behalf, so as to be 'forgiven' by God before they entered the temple or before they performed their priestly role to the people.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Heifer, of course we need to understand what the law is and what it teaches, otherwise we know would not know we are sinners. I am simply saying that once one has Christ, they don't need the law as a way of life. The OP is arguing that Christians need to keep the law (ten commandments is part of the law, it's all or nothing people) in order to truly love Christ. I argue that faith in Jesus and the consequential new nature he gives us are all we need, and that a mixing of both law and faith perverts the gospel of God's gracious salvation.

 

[Heifer]

Heifer, of course we need to understand what the law is and what it teaches, otherwise we would not know we are sinners.

I'm not sure, for myself, that it's quite as simple as 'otherwise we would not know we are sinners'. One certainly can quote the internally unelaborated Bible passages that use such simple language, but I have doubts that the authors of those passages meant such simple and few words in the most cut-and-dry way.

I am simply saying that once one has Christ, they don't need the law as a way of life.

Did God ever mean it to be? I, for one, somewhat doubt that He meant it so.

The OP is arguing that Christians need to keep the law (ten commandments is part of the law, it's all or nothing people) in order to truly love Christ. I argue that faith in Jesus and the consequential new nature he gives us are all we need, and that a mixing of both law and faith perverts the gospel of God's gracious salvation.

Then by all means, let's get rid of all copies of the Law text. That seems to me to be what your words amount to saying (even if you, of course, do not mean any such thing, though I haven't yet quite figured exactly what you mean, and exactly what you don't mean)

I suppose that the OP may not quite have the full understanding of the matter. I myself have doubts that you (or I, or anyone else) has a full-and-faultless understanding of the matter. But what is the matter here, given that the OP is (isn't it?) SDA?

 

[Alawishis]

Ex-Gentiles? I've never heard this expression in the Bible as Paul and Peter have both considered BELIEVERS that are Gentiles...... still Gentiles.
As for your idea of moral vs ceremonial it is the SDA folks that have this issue about ceremonial vs moral if you aren't one of them them I'm not talking to you about it.

Well here is the distinction the bible makes concerning the laws two classes of laws we are talking about.

* One set of laws is written by the hand of God on tablets of stone and placed in a place of high honour (inside the arc). The arc was essentially the symbolic throne of God as his earthly manifestation resided here. These laws also have the distinction of having been spoken directly to God's people so that all could hear him.

* The other set of laws was written by Moses as related by God. These laws were written on the equivalent of paper and kept on the outside of the arc. We are tolds these paper laws are kept there as a witness against us.

No kingdom exists without law. Law, in fact is the foundation of any kingdom, earthly or heavenly. Look at the commandments minus commandment number four. Do you really think any of these laws are no longer binding on us? Is idol worship OK now? Why do we want to throw away all the commandments just because we have issue with the fourth one?

 

[BABerean2]

Why do we want to throw away all the commandments just because we have issue with the fourth one?

A person who constantly lies, cheats, steals, etc. cannot have the Holy Spirit inside of them.

He is the One who writes the moral law on our heart.

He convicts us and corrects us on a daily basis.

We are to be circumcised in the heart, instead of the flesh.

In the same way, we are to have the Sabbath rest in our heart every day, instead of just one day a week.


1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

.

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Those who claim they are keeping the Sabbath and the other commandments in the flesh, are kidding themselves. It cannot be done.

They are just like the young man who told Jesus that he had kept the law his whole life.

Instead of laughing at him or calling him a liar, Jesus asked the man to give up everything and follow him.
The young man's response revealed the truth.



1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.



1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 

[BobRyan]

The majority of even pro-sunday scholarship admits that the Sabbath Commandment is part of the TEN commmandments and it defines what is and is not obedience - what is and is not sin.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW " 1 John 3:4

Here is how one of them makes that point "from the text" of scripture.

still doesn't explain why the separation of moral vs cermonial laws and how a ceremonial law is moral etc.

Until we read 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" which is given in direct contrast to the ceremonial law about circumcision. The very contrast you claim you cannot find.

until you read the text and notice that sin is defined by the LAW of God still in the NT not just in the OT and that the ceremonial laws were not given to define sin for gentiles in the OT - but the moral law according to Romans 3 and Galatians 3 condemns the entire world - still - to this very day.

"love Me and KEEP My commandments" Ex 20:6
"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12