If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[bbbbbbb]

In Protestantism one of the key elements is "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice - and not so much focus on simply "ad hominem" to make a point. As I am sure we would all agree.

But the Bible describes an opposing model to that in Rev 12

Rev 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

I think we are all familiar with that system.

In fact we see it as well in Dan 7

Rev 13
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.


Rev 3
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

So then how is that "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition stated in the Bible?

Well we find on example of it in Mark 7:6-13


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Despite your lengthy post, you did not address my question. I will state it more simply again.

Why do you not obey God's commandments (note, not commandments of men, but of God)?

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

If Jesus gave us the Ten Commandments, who gave us the other 603 Commandments?

Could you show me where the Bible [KJB] delineates the specific number "613" [a talmudic/rabbinical concept] in regards commandments anywhere in all of scripture, OT/NT.

I will wait.

Scripture does specifically delineate The "Ten Commandments" - Exodus 20:2-17; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 10:4, and the "Two" Greatest - Love to God - Deuteronomy 6:5, and Love to Neighbour - Leviticus 19:17-18, both of which relate directly to the Ten Commandments, see context of both statements there and from that Jesus and Paul, etc quotes from. Of the two greatest, Jesus spake of the "first" [Mark 12:30] and of the "second" [Mark 12:31], which He designated as these "two" [Matthew 22:40]. Paul even speaks of "all the law" as being "one word" [Galatians 5:14]. Paul also mentions the "first commandment" [Ephesians 6:2] with a promise on the second table of stone. In the OT, there is also mention of "one law" [Exodus 12:49; Numbers 15:16, etc], even also called "all this law" [Deuteronomy 4:8].

 

[BobRyan]

Nope.... it doesn't say that it says by LOVING one doesn't need to worry about the Law they aren't going to break what Paul deems important parts of the Law that he LISTS there because doing so is NOT loving your neighbor.

In other words keeping commandments isn't necessarily loving your neighbor, but loving your neighbor just happens to have you not breaking some of the commandments.

I would emphasize Rom 13:10 Love works no ill to your neighbor, therefore love does ALL the Law requires of Christians (fulfills it).

James 2 does not say "just keep some of the commandments -- just the ones you feel are best".

I think we all agree to that.

 

[bbbbbbb]

James 2 does not say "just keep some of the commandments -- just the ones you feel are best".

I think we all agree to that.

Perhaps most, at least some, of us give lip service to that idea. However, is there a particular reason you don't keep all of God's commandments?

 

[BobRyan]

A simple question for those here who are opposed to God's Commandments.

what "Commandments" what "LAW" is this where the 5th commandment is the FIRST one with a promise??

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

In what well-known unit of law - is there such an arrangement as is stated in Eph 6 - by Paul???

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps most, at least some, of us give lip service to that idea. However, is there a particular reason you don't keep all of God's commandments?

Since you enjoy repeating the question - I enjoy also repeating the Bible lesson

In Protestantism one of the key elements is "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice - and not so much focus on simply "ad hominem" to make a point. As I am sure we would all agree.

But the Bible describes an opposing model in Rev 12 to the "sola scriptura" testing model.

Rev 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

I think we are all familiar with that system.

In fact we see it as well in Rev 13

Rev 13
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.


Rev 3
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

So then how is that "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition stated in the Bible?

Well we find one example of "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition in Mark 7:6-13


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Further repeats of the question - will just get a link to this post.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Since you enjoy repeating the question - I enjoy also repeating the Bible lesson

In Protestantism one of the key elements is "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice - and not so much focus on simply "ad hominem" to make a point. As I am sure we would all agree.

But the Bible describes an opposing model in Rev 12 to the "sola scriptura" testing model.

Rev 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

I think we are all familiar with that system.

In fact we see it as well in Rev 13

Rev 13
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.


Rev 3
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

So then how is that "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition stated in the Bible?

Well we find on example of it in Mark 7:6-13


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Further repeats of the question - will just get a link to this post.

Thanks. i have a feeling that you may be in for quite a surprise.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed - if "accuser of the brethren" is the correct way to go - and "sola scriptura testing" of all doctrine and practice turns out to be the wrong way to go.. I will be very surprised indeed.

But since that is not likely - I will stick with the Bible on this one.

Each one has free will and may choose as they wish -- this path is my choice.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Proverbs 14:2 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

Proverbs 14:2 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Indeed:

"seemeth right":

Romans 6:23 KJV - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 3:4 KJV - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:1 KJV - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 KJV - God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

Actually Right:

Exodus 15:26 KJV - And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.

Deuteronomy 13:18 KJV - When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do [that which is] right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

1 Kings 11:38 KJV - And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do [that is] right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.

1 Kings 14:8 KJV - And rent the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it thee: and [yet] thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do [that] only [which was] right in mine eyes;

Nehemiah 9:13 KJV - Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Deuteronomy 33:2 KJV - And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.​

 

[BobRyan]

Proverbs 14:2 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

And of course in Mark 7:6-13 "God's way" is the "Sola scriptura" test. As we all can see here - Yesterday at 9:56 PM #26

As I am sure we all agree by now - The "ad hominem" solution just is not going to work.

 

[BABerean2]

1050 Commandments in the NT and the 600+ in the OT - all given to us by God.

If they are all given to us, then we will need to restart animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, even though the ultimate sacrifice of God's Son has already been made and the veil in the temple has been torn.
.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 10 says that the animal sacrifices have ended.

But no text says the moral law of God has ended. A Bible detail so incredibly clear that even the majority of pro-Sunday scholars admit to this Bible point.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Heb 10 says that the animal sacrifices have ended.

But no text says the moral law of God has ended. A Bible detail so incredibly clear that even the majority of pro-Sunday scholars admit to this Bible point.

Actually, there is no "moral law" defined in the Bible. If I am mistaken, please provide chapter(s) and verse(s) which clearly state which commandments consitute the "moral law" and which constitute the "immoral law."

 

[BABerean2]

Heb 10 says that the animal sacrifices have ended.

Heb 7:12 says there was a change in the law because of a better mediator.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Heb 8:13 says the Sinai covenant is obsolete.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



Gal 4:30 says that we are to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.





Col 2:16-17 says that no one is to judge us in Sabbaths. Some declare that the word "Sabbath" means something different in this verse because they do not like what the verse says. Count the number of times that the Apostle Paul clearly tells us that we must keep the Sinai Sabbath as a part of our salvation.


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

However, some of us cannot let go of the Sabbath, so we have to do everything in our power to keep it a part of the moral law of God written on the hearts of those in the New Covenant.

If you are in-Christ the Sabbath is inside of you every day.
.

 

[Soyeong]

Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.



By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?

Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.

John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"

And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"

John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.

John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

==================================================
Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant

Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.


Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?

The Father gave more than 10 commandments, Jesus kept more than 10 commandments, and set an example for us to follow of keeping more than 10 commandments.

 

[Soyeong]

Nothing here just more scripture plucked out of context..... here is the "commandments" Jesus was talking about if one sits down and READS the entire chapters 14 AND 15 of John they will see there is no indication of any OTHER commandments suggested by some here.

12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 This I command you, that you love one another.

Notice that this is REPEATED TWICE, this commandment of Jesus, while there is NO repetition of ANY specific commandment relating to Mosaic Law contained in Jesus own words like this.

All of God's law can be categorized as either how to love God or how to love your neighbor, hence why Jesus said they were the two greatest commands and that all of the law hanged on those two. God's law exemplifies how we are to love one another and it was the way that he showed his love to the people he was speaking to in verse 12. God's law already commands us to love one another, so it was not a new commandment so much as it was a new example of how to correctly obey it. We are to love one another as he loved us, not as we love ourselves, which is a much higher spiritual standard. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, which means to teach by word and example how to correctly understand and obey it.

 

[BABerean2]

The Father gave more than 10 commandments, Jesus kept more than 10 commandments, and set example for us to follow of keeping more than 10 commandments.

Divine Curse of the Hebrew Roots Movement: Christian AnswersTV

 

[Soyeong]

Divine Curse of the Hebrew Roots Movement: Christian AnswersTV

I can't watch the video now.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Actually, there is no "moral law" defined in the Bible. If I am mistaken, please provide chapter(s) and verse(s) which clearly state which commandments consitute the "moral law" and which constitute the "immoral law."

While you are at it ask them to show why they think the Sabbath Day commandment is "moral law" when logically speaking I cannot fathom why it wouldn't be considered ceremonial instead.