If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Bob S]

Well according to you we do not even need a bible. Jesus "fulfilled" the entire NT. Just what does the word "fulfill" mean?

You said "Now that is the voice of one crying in the wilderness. This term 'ceremonial law', is one of the truly great errors that arose in historical Christianity. The law of Moses contained civil, moral, Levitical priesthood laws, and sacrificial laws. Truly a national legal system given to the nation of Israel. I am baffled by this terminology they use." Show me what was in "the book of the law that Moses" wrote, and we read about in Deuteronomy 31. AND Paul mentions in Galatians:3:10: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." You really should study what Jesus actually "fulfilled" before you try to make people look bad with your opinions. What Moses wrote in a book, known as "the book of the law" was given by God on Sinai. It contained the blessings and curses, which Paul refers to in Colossians 2:14-17 when he wrote about "handwriting of ORDINANCES" that was AGAINST US. The TEN commandments have never been against us. In fact they are "holy just and good" according to Paul.

Did you realize that the book of the law contained the 10 commandments?

As to what Jesus fulfilled, we are not told He only fulfilled part of the law. He did say that not one jot.... would pass from the law until all was fulfilled and He also said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." There He didn't say part of the law, He said the law meaning Torah, all of Torah. Torah included the 10 commandments. That is why Paul could write in 2Cor 3 that the 10 commandments were temporary commandments. Jesus had fulfilled them at the Cross where His blood ratified the new covenant of love. 1Jn3:19-24.

You can live by the red books or by the Holy Writ. I made my choice 20 years ago.

I want to tell you that my differences are not with you personally. It is with the church you represent. It has filled the minds of great people with complete nonsense and has twisted scripture to sound like it agrees with all the preconceived teachings from the prophet. As you can plainly read we have answered your questions and have Biblical proof that Christians are not under any of the laws given to Israel. However, many of the laws given to Israel are found in the New Testament and are part of the new covenant. These would be laws that pertain to morality. May the Holy Spirit guide you as you contemplate The posts we have provided you and those who are either part of Adventism or contemplating joining.

 

[masmpg]

Hello Masmpg.

We have a problem Masmpg, we are reading a different text from one another, even though it's the same quotation. You mentioned (Colossians 2:14) in your reply. I read the Colossians text and I am wondering why Masmpg has a problem with understanding the text. Now I will illustrate why we understand the scripture differently from one another. Please read below, the same verse in two different translations.

Colossians 2 (K J V)
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Colossians 2 (NASB)
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

These two Bible verses above are from the same quotation, but from different Bibles.

Your seeing the ordinances as being blotted out. I'm seeing the decrees ( the commandments) being blotted out.

Such a powerful difference in interpretation, due simply to the choice of translation.

So the question is Masmpg, who is using the correct translation?

I have chosen the KJV over all translations, many of which I dare not call bibles but counterfeits. The KJV has served the church well for 400 years, even with its errors. All translations and manuscripts have errors, but there is only one that God has protected and blessed through time, and that would be the masoretic texts which have become the KJV bible. This is why satan has created so many translations so people would argue which one is more "correct" instead of studying to show ourselves approve unto God. I use to believe the teachings about doing away with God's laws, all of them, until I thought about it and prayed and the Lord opened my eyes just like He will if you ask Him to. The ridiculousness of saying that God has no laws is just mind boggling. Or to say He has a law (love) but we can hate and call it love by breaking the TEN commandments. If we loved it would be impossible to break any of the TEN commandments. It is that simple. to make excuses about "saved by grace" not even knowing what grace is for just shows a grave lack of biblical knowledge.

I have never heard of the TEN commandments be considered anything but the law. The Ten commandments are not decrees, nor ordinances, nor rules. In fact it does not matter what anyone calls the things that Jesus "nailed to the cross". Only those things that pointed to Jesus were "nailed to the cross". PERIOD. The TEN commandments did not point to Jesus the ceremonial sabbath days, or feast days if you will, and the sacrificial service which was made evident by the curtain in the temple being torn from top to bottom. That signified the end of the sacrificial service. Whether you want to see it or not makes not difference to me.

 

[masmpg]

Heb_12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
.

There is NO physical mount Zion on earth!

I believe the statement was about which mountain Moses got which laws. The context of this study has nothing to do with the heavenly Zion.

 

[masmpg]

You have no clue what it means to fulfill. You seem to think that to fulfill the law means to do away with it? That is not the case no matter how many bible verses you use. Certainly the TEN commandments cannot justify anyone like Paul writes to those heathens and idol worshipers. Certainly obedience to God's laws will not save us. Does that somehow do away with the law? Just because it is written on your heart does that do away with it? I guess if the law is written on our hearts, which tells me that there is in fact a law, which is the TEN commandments, is it somehow not sin if we break it just because it is written on our hearts? You make no sense when you argue that there is no law. All governments have laws but not God, okay I see, that is just not even rational.

I use to believe like you but there are far too many verses that you cannot reconcile to your teaching that all God's laws are done away with somehow.

 

[BABerean2]

There is NO physical mount Zion on earth!

All of the Uppercase text is quoted from the Old Testament.

Mat_21:5　 "TELL THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, 'BEHOLD, YOUR KING IS COMING TO YOU, LOWLY, AND SITTING ON A DONKEY, A COLT, THE FOAL OF A DONKEY.' "

Joh_12:15　 "FEAR NOT, DAUGHTER OF ZION; BEHOLD, YOUR KING IS COMING, SITTING ON A DONKEY'S COLT."

Rom_9:33　 As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

Rom_11:26　 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;

.

 

[masmpg]

This is not any physical reference to Zion on earth. The daughters of Zion are God's people. A woman is quite often referred to as a church.

I am not arguing nor am I trying to prove a point, just sharing what the Lord has taught me

 

[BABerean2]

This is not any physical reference to Zion on earth. The daughters of Zion are God's people. A woman is quite often referred to as a church.

I am not arguing nor am I trying to prove a point, just sharing what the Lord has taught me

2Sa 5:7　 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.　


The old city of Jerusalem is the earthly Zion.

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[Bob S]

You have no clue what it means to fulfill. You seem to think that to fulfill the law means to do away with it? That is not the case no matter how many bible verses you use.

Fulfill, as I have been taught (not from Adventism), means to bring to an end. Jesus brought to an end the Torah ( law governing Israel and no other nation. This is confirmed by Paul in Gal 3:19 and 2Cor 3:7-11. Now, do I believe you or do I believe the scriptures?

Certainly the TEN commandments cannot justify anyone like Paul writes to those heathens and idol worshipers. Certainly obedience to God's laws will not save us. Does that somehow do away with the law?

Good question. Just remember the law Jesus was referring to was Torah. Do you keep Torah? You have already admitted you do not keep the ceremonial laws as you refer to all the laws Moses wrote except of course the unclean laws and your modified false tithing system.

Just because it is written on your heart does that do away with it?

I didn't write it Paul did, go argue with Paul. There was a change in the priesthood. so also there was a change in the laws. What is written on our hearts is not Torah. Torah was for Israel only. Christians have the law of love written on our hearts. 1Jn3:19-24

I guess if the law is written on our hearts, which tells me that there is in fact a law, which is the TEN commandments,

Yep, that fits your preconceived belief system, but it is a false theory. 2Cor3:7-11

is it somehow not sin if we break it just because it is written on our hearts? You make no sense when you argue that there is no law. All governments have laws but not God, okay I see, that is just not even rational.

That is nothing but a strawman argument.

I use to believe like you but there are far too many verses that you cannot reconcile to your teaching that all God's laws are done away with somehow.

All of God's laws are not done away with. Laws dealing with morality are forever until Jesus comes again and takes us where there is no need for laws.

 

[BobRyan]

Fulfill, as I have been taught (not from Adventism), means to bring to an end. Jesus brought to an end the Torah

Until you read the actual Bible.

There is the idea on one hand that this entire discussion is merely academic

But what does the Bible say?


Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

The Bible says "what wages is sin is death" Rom 6:23
The Bible says "sin is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.
The Bible say " to him that knows to do right - and does it not , to him it is sin" James 4:17
The Bible says this in John 9
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.


Notice how Jesus "gets down to the smallest details" when it comes to those trying to edit/downsize/side-step" even one sliver of His Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye

Notice that "Moses said", "Word of God", "Commandment of God" ... are all in one category -- while "your tradition' and "your own tradition" and "tradition of men" are in another category --- according to Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

The LAW of God remains -- as we see in Romans 3:31... rather than being "abolished by faith" as we are reminded in Romans 6.

Thanks for your reply...for the record the 10 no longer apply for the believers

For the record you just "quoted you" not the Bible.

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here is the actual Bible being quoted --
.

In the NT - sin is still "defined" this way "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 NKJV

notice how explicitly NT authors not only affirm the Commandments of God - but quote from them to help those who might wonder if the TEN Commandments should be included?

================= notice the "Bible details"


In Matt 22 Jesus affirms OT - LAW and scripture
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
Matt 22 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Matt 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ (Deut 6:5) 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Lev 19:18) 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

The firm foundation for the LAW and the prophets - LOVE.

TEN COMMANDMENTS AFFIRMED in NT

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said;Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments; 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself


"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"If you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31




Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

=================================

Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.


Rom 13 NKJV
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Rom 13 HCSB - Holman Bible
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments:
Do not commit adultery;
do not murder;
do not steal;
do not covet;
and whatever other commandment—all are summed up by this: Love your neighbor as yourself.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.



Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law.

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
...
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

"Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
"ALL have sinned" Romans 3:23

Both Jews AND Gentiles are explicitly included in Romans 2 --
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.


Eph 6: 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), -- the 5th commandment in that still-valid "unit of ten" is the "FIRST commandment with a promise.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

============================

"the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23


God says in Genesis 4 "SIN is crouching at your door - but you must master it" - more than 2000 years before Sinai

Genesis 26:5 Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.

Ex 20:11 points to Genesis 2:1-3 for the creation of the Sabbath

 

[BABerean2]

But what does the Bible say?

Joh 15:10　 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.　


Two different sets of commandments are found in the verse above...

.

 

[masmpg]

Fulfill, as I have been taught (not from Adventism), means to bring to an end. Jesus brought to an end the Torah ( law governing Israel and no other nation. This is confirmed by Paul in Gal 3:19 and 2Cor 3:7-11. Now, do I believe you or do I believe the scriptures?


Good question. Just remember the law Jesus was referring to was Torah. Do you keep Torah? You have already admitted you do not keep the ceremonial laws as you refer to all the laws Moses wrote except of course the unclean laws and your modified false tithing system.


I didn't write it Paul did, go argue with Paul. There was a change in the priesthood. so also there was a change in the laws. What is written on our hearts is not Torah. Torah was for Israel only. Christians have the law of love written on our hearts. 1Jn3:19-24


All of God's laws are not done away with. Laws dealing with morality are forever until Jesus comes again and takes us where there is no need for laws.

I have tried to reason with you Bob but you just keep changing your mind when I expose some belief you promote. Now you have invented this "laqws dealing with morality" which somehow does not include the TEN commandments. You say that the TEN commandments were written in the book of the law. The "book of the law was written by Moses, the TEN commandments were written by God with His own finger. Read Deuteronomy 31 and read about the book of the law. This is all I can say to you except that I pray for you and all others on here.

 

[BABerean2]

In the NT - sin is still "defined" this way "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 NKJV

And the rest of the story from 1 John chapter 3, without the bait and switch.

Your NKJV must be different from mine, or are you quoting you as you like to accuse others of doing, because your quote above does not come from the NKJV?


1Jn 3:4　 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.　(NKJV)


1Jn 3:22　 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.　
1Jn 3:23　 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.　
1Jn 3:24　 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.　

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[bugkiller]

There was another man named Cephas. This was his given name. He was not Simon Peter. Most Bible translations make the mistake of changing the name Peter into Cephas in the Book of Galatians, but the Greek Scriptures make a distinction between Peter and Cephas in this particular Book. Look up the following passage on biblegateway.com using the Mounce translation from the Greek.

Galatians 2:1-11
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage— 5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who were reputed to be something (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who were of repute added nothing to me; 7 but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles), 9 and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised; 10 only they would have us remember the poor, which very thing I was eager to do.
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.​

This Cephas is not one of the apostles. He is one of the original 70/72 disciples.

The apostle named Peter did not meet up with Paul in Antioch (who was preaching to the Gentiles). Peter had an entirely different mission from God. Peter was commanded to preach to the Jews/circumcised.

Paul would not have used two different names for the same person in this one passage because Paul was a learned man and this would definitely not be acceptable grammar.

The historical record states that the person that Paul rebuked was Cephas, one of the 70 disciples, and not Peter the apostle.

What did the apostle Peter actually do when he was criticized for eating with Gentiles? He silenced these Jews by his exhortation. Peter did not cower before any Jews.

Acts 11:1-3, 17-
Now the apostles and the brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, 3 saying, “Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?” ........
17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” 18 When they heard this they were silenced. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance unto life.” rsv
​

I won't be changing my mind on this topic.

You might reconsider after reading I Cor 15:5. The Greek uses the same word for Peter. Why the translators changed from Peter to Cephas is a mystery to me.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

If two men had the same name, two different names would need to be used to distinguish between the two men. Paul would not have called one man two different names in the same passage in the same letter if he was speaking about only one man. However, if Paul meant two different men, he needed to use two different names in the same passage.

Galatians 2:7-8
but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles)

9 and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised;

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” rsv​

Most Bible translations make the mistake of changing Peter's name into Cephas in all these verses or else they change Cephas' name into Peter in all these verses.

Jesus spoke Aramaic. Cephas meant rock in Aramaic. Meaning, origin and history of the name Cephas

Matthew always used the name "Peter" instead of "Cephas" in his gospel which he wrote for the Christians of Jewish heritage when he was talking about "Simon Peter".

Paul wrote mostly for a Greek-speaking audience.

1 Corinthians 9:5
Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? rsv
​

Please note that Cephas is not considered an apostle. These "brothers of the Lord" are not Jesus' apostles.

1 Corinthians 3:22
whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, rsv
​

This Apollos and this Cephas are not apostles.

Matthew 12:46
While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. rsv​

The disciples of the Lord (the men who became His apostles including Simon Peter) were already inside with Jesus when He was told that His mother and his brothers were outside.

​

Peter's name was always listed first in all lists of apostles as a sign of respect for his office of chief steward/apostle.

​

No, Peter is not claimed to have been a perfect man by the Catholic Church. However, because he is in heaven right now, he became perfected before he entered there.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. rsv

​

Since we'll never agree on these topics and I have no more to add, it's time to bid farewell, adieu, adios to these topics.

Would please identify the word "they" each time it is used in your passage from Galatians?

Thanks

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Well I think we would all agree that this thread is not about the two or three names we find for Peter

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Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.



By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?

Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.

John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"

And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"

John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.

John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

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Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant

Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.


Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?

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If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where??

Two simple questions - easy answer to each one - Yesterday at 11:09 AM #383
Resolves the entire debate on this thread.

Same old sophistry.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Based on this argument, all children must be circumcised because God commanded Abraham to circumcise all of his male offspring and based on your logic God never changes any of His commandments...

This type of logic produced Paul's battle with the Judaisers in the Book of Galatians. It started in Acts chapter 15.

That battle is still occurring on this thread.

The battle on this thread is mainly over the 4th commandment, which is the "sign" of the Sinai covenant. Even though we never find the Apostle Paul telling Gentile believers that they must keep the Sinai Sabbath, we are told it was done.

And even though Colossians 2:16-17 clearly states that the Sabbath day was a shadow of Christ, we are told we are taking the verses out of context.

And even though Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-30, some here are able to ignore this text.

We are supposed to forget that those who said Jesus was coming back on October 22, 1844 are now being held up as authorities on doctrine.

Sadly, for most of the history of the Church the Judaisers have won the battle between the Old Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant fulfilled in Blood at Calvary.

It is the Body of Christ that has suffered the consequences.

I wonder what the Apostle Paul would say if he were here today?


Gal 5:12 I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!


Php 3:2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.

.

I have heard the phrase "turn over in his grave."

bugkiller

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

All of the Uppercase text is quoted from the Old Testament.

Mat_21:5　 "TELL THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, 'BEHOLD, YOUR KING IS COMING TO YOU, LOWLY, AND SITTING ON A DONKEY, A COLT, THE FOAL OF A DONKEY.' "

Joh_12:15　 "FEAR NOT, DAUGHTER OF ZION; BEHOLD, YOUR KING IS COMING, SITTING ON A DONKEY'S COLT."

Rom_9:33　 As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

Rom_11:26　 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;

.

Wonderful! What nonsense that legalist Mr. Know it all spoke!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You might reconsider after reading I Cor 15:5. The Greek uses the same word for Peter. Why the translators changed from Peter to Cephas is a mystery to me.

bugkiller

O no mate, it’s not that easy for you! It’s easy for us, who see right through your ‘clever’ designs!

You allege the Greek does not use <<the same word [Kephas] for Peter>>. But 'Kephas', is used in the Greek. Not in any manuscript in this text, is the <<word Peter>> used. So it’s simply your spin <<the translators changed (the word Peter) from Peter to Cephas>>.
The ‘dis’ dislocated from the word honest put back, and one has your methodology exposed for what it really is.

Moreover, graver, uglier, I see behind your pretence your deliberate distortion, yes contortion, of Paul’s greater statement concerning Jesus’ appearances after He had resurrected. I have dealt with this underhanded opportunism several times before in my life, a reprehensible act of malevolent ABUSE to the advancement of SUNDAY VENERATION of Paul’s majestic confession of the Resurrection of Christ. It alike betrays the abuser’s real estimation of Christ and his Resurrection.

To say it without mincing of words, straight from the shoulder, Claiming that “Christ according to the Scriptures the third day rose and was seen of Peter”, is utter, ingenious, FRAUD.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Same old sophistry.

bugkiller

That Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20 is <sophistry> to the bug's sophistry, yeah.