If you followed OSAS...

[Teslafied]

I thought of a good question for those for OSAS. Lets say your wrong and all those people you know who were newer christians took your advice and beleived in OSAS. Now what do you do when you get to heaven and (since we answer for everything) God says "7 people which heard you tell them OSAS now are in hell because they died having left Me and christiainty. They died thinking they can be as evil/bad as they want and still get into heaven. Why would you lead others to a path that can make them hell bound?".

And how about the ones who die thinking they lived a holy lifestyle apart from sin? They'll be utterly shocked to know their righteousness is as filthy rags.

I'm not labeling myself as osas but again salvation is free to them that believe. Now we know it wasn't free for Christ, but He did it because He knew no man could fully keep the law. If you were judged by the law you'd probably end up in hell, because we all have sinned and fallen short. You'd have to go to Israel and sacrifice lambs daily, but under Christ we don't have to because our sins are forgiven.

Now if we love Jesus we'd want to at least try to live better to shine our light to others, but who are we to point fingers at others like the Pharisees? When we judge others God will judge us with the same measure. Jesus wants us to extend grace. I'm not saying we shouldn't correct in love, but only God can condemn others to hell.

Loving kindness leads to repentance.

The Holy Spirit will finish the work He's begun in all believers lives.

 

[Teslafied]

I thought of a good question for those for OSAS. Lets say your wrong and all those people you know who were newer christians took your advice and beleived in OSAS. Now what do you do when you get to heaven and (since we answer for everything) God says "7 people which heard you tell them OSAS now are in hell because they died having left Me and christiainty. They died thinking they can be as evil/bad as they want and still get into heaven. Why would you lead others to a path that can make them hell bound?".

May I add it's implied by your post that you feel like anyone who messes up has left God. Well I'm sure some have, but it's not fair to categorize all those who live in sin as unbelievers.

The bible says that we are not dealing with just flesh and blood but all the principalities of darkness.

For some that "live in sin" it could be a habit / bondage that needs broken or it could be demonic. Either way God knows the heart.

Now if someone claims to be a Christian but they never admit they've sinned or that their lifestyle choices like drinking, doing drugs, fornicating, whatever sin their in is wrong then yes I'd question their conversion. Because obviously someone who is saved and reads Gods word would have enough sense to know they're a sinner in need of Gods grace, but again it's not works it's our faith that saves us.

 

[Albion]

Any scripture for this statement?

Of course, and many of the relevant verses have recently been cited by other members on one thread or another.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I thought of a good question for those for OSAS. Lets say your wrong and all those people you know who were newer christians took your advice and beleived in OSAS. Now what do you do when you get to heaven and (since we answer for everything) God says "7 people which heard you tell them OSAS now are in hell because they died having left Me and christiainty. They died thinking they can be as evil/bad as they want and still get into heaven. Why would you lead others to a path that can make them hell bound?".

That is obviously hypothetical because OSAS is a very Biblical concept and God's Word IS the proof in OSAS, so I do not see your hypothetical ever taking place.

Also, I would not (but maybe I hold God's Word to a higher plane) put that God would talk to a Christian in heaven after death and ask why one of His Own Children sent someone to hell, much less 7 people. Then asking why a Christian would send someone (more like 7 people) to hell.

That shows disrespect to our Lord, Christians and to yourself for posting something like that. It is very offensive.

I think that you are more than capable to make your point, whatever that may be, with another scenario which I would ask you to do by editing your post. I would like to hear your point but cannot get past the scenario you presented.

 

[seashale76]

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...

what would you tell them?

I can't even pretend to be in this hypothetical situation because OSAS is so unbiblical. It's a matter of timing. If by 'once saved' you mean that the believer in question endured in the faith until the end of their life and finished his or her race, then yes, that individual is 'always saved'. If, however, you simply mean someone had a conversion experience, then no dice. I've seen how that works. The conversion experience person will go through a period where he or she stumbles and has issues, and the OSAS crowd will cry, "Oh, that person had a 'false conversion'." LOL- whatever.

I reject both the Calvinism and the Arminianism, as one is a modern doctrine that has no basis in historical Christianity, and the other was developed as a counter to the first. It's amazing how Christianity survived over 1500 years without either.

The faith vs. works dilemma is one that began during the Protestant Reformation. Suddenly, everything became a faith vs. works, or a faith or works debate. In reality, you'll have both faith and works. A better way of putting it is that one will have a faith that works. I only usually see this dilemma among Reformed types and Calvinists- so it's really not even all Protestants or Evangelicals. Arminianism was a response to Calvinism and what they saw that was wrong with it. This debate ignores the whole picture and the totality of what the scriptures say.

Justification is the process of becoming righteous. Justification by faith is being in a covenant with God. Because of Christ fulfilling the law, we're no longer under the Old Covenant, and Christ's Church is under the New Covenant. So, justification isn't a one time event for us. We're in a covenant with God, which is centered around union with Christ.

Salvation is having faith in Christ, receiving the indwelling/gift of the Holy Spirit, and coming to a knowledge of God the Father. Yes, we have faith, but it is a gift by the grace of God, and it is actually God's mercy (and not our faith) that saves us. God draws us to Himself.

Faith is something of an action word. It's continuous, and it isn't a one moment in time deal. You are saved at your baptism into Christ, you are being saved through life in the Church and partaking of the sacraments, and you will be saved at the Final Judgment. So, a life in Christ is a journey to us. We don't attempt to break things down, but see things holistically.

Hebrews 12:21
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19
By standing firm you will gain life.

2 Thessalonians 4:7-8
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Acts 14:21-22
They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch, strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Proverbs 24:16
a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

(Apologies if you've seen this post from me before. I refuse to reinvent the wheel when certain topics come up. I'll simply rehash old posts of mine. I've been here at CF since 2004.)

ETA: So- what would I tell the friend? Everyone goes through rough spots. I would pray for them and encourage them to stay active in church and partake of the sacraments.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I can't even pretend to be in this hypothetical situation because OSAS is so unbiblical. It's a matter of timing. If by 'once saved' you mean that the believer in question endured in the faith until the end of their life and finished his or her race, then yes, that individual is 'always saved'. If, however, you simply mean someone had a conversion experience, then no dice. I've seen how that works. The conversion experience person will go through a period where he or she stumbles and has issues, and the OSAS crowd will cry, "Oh, that person had a 'false conversion'." LOL- whatever.

I reject both the Calvinism and the Arminianism, as one is a modern doctrine that has no basis in historical Christianity, and the other was developed as a counter to the first. It's amazing how Christianity survived over 1500 years without either.

The faith vs. works dilemma is one that began during the Protestant Reformation. Suddenly, everything became a faith vs. works, or a faith or works debate. In reality, you'll have both faith and works. A better way of putting it is that one will have a faith that works. I only usually see this dilemma among Reformed types and Calvinists- so it's really not even all Protestants or Evangelicals. Arminianism was a response to Calvinism and what they saw that was wrong with it. This debate ignores the whole picture and the totality of what the scriptures say.

I'm confused.

First you say OSAS is unbiblical, than you say it may not be unbiblical if it has a specific timing, then you say if not in the timing that is is biblical. Then you say LOL whatever?

From their you move on to Calvinism and Arminianism. That one is modern and has no base historically, but the other also has no base in history and is not only modern, but the modern response to the other modern response.

Then you move on to the Protestant Reformation.

Then plunge into faith vs. works. Call that a long held debate, but then say it is both faith and works so it is not a long held debate? From their remove the 'and' and just say 'faith works'.

Then another talk about Reformation, Calvinists, Protestants, Evangelicals and Aminians.

Ending with that all these things ignore the totality of the scriptures. I am confused.

 

[seashale76]

I'm confused.

First you say OSAS is unbiblical, than you say it may not be unbiblical if it has a specific timing, then you say if not in the timing that is is biblical. Then you say LOL whatever?

From their you move on to Calvinism and Arminianism. That one is modern and has no base historically, but the other also has no base in history and is not only modern, but the modern response to the other modern response.

Then you move on to the Protestant Reformation. Then plunge into faith vs. works. Call that a long held debate, but then say it is both faith and works so it is not a long held debate? From their remove the 'and' and just say 'faith works'. Then another talk about Reformation, Calvinists, Protestants, Evangelicals and Amininans.

Ending with that all these things ignore the totality of the scriptures. I am confused.

Yeah- I can see that you're confused. I'm keeping my audience in mind. I know most of you here only follow a Christianity that isn't any older than the Reformation. You have little concept that a lot of what you believe has no basis in historical Christianity and what is orthodox. I have presented the Orthodox view of these things. Let's boil it down to the bare bones though: OSAS is NOT biblical. OSAS is not what early Christians believed. We both know OSAS ignores the scriptures I posted. We both know it has nothing to do with enduring to the end. We both know you believe in some kind of altar call theology, after which you consider yourself saved. If anyone trips up, then we both know you believe that person had a false conversion. Orthodoxy rejects this view. A life in Christ is a journey, not something to be cut up to an altar call moment. It does a huge disservice to everyone.

 

[Albion]

Yeah- I can see that you're confused. I'm keeping my audience in mind. I know most of you here only follow a Christianity that isn't any older than the Reformation. You have little concept that a lot of what you believe has no basis in historical Christianity and what is orthodox. I have presented the Orthodox view of these things. Let's boil it down to the bare bones though: OSAS is NOT biblical. OSAS is not what early Christians believed. We both know OSAS ignores the scriptures I posted. We both know it has nothing to do with enduring to the end. We both know you believe in some kind of altar call theology, after which you consider yourself saved. If anyone trips up, then we both know you believe that person had a false conversion. Orthodoxy rejects this view. A life in Christ is a journey, not something to be cut up to an altar call moment. It does a huge disservice to everyone.

Wow, was that full of mistakes.

Anyway, it does look as though unloading a pile of thoughts like that is what caused the confusion. Maybe one idea at a time--OSAS for example?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yeah- I can see that you're confused. I'm keeping my audience in mind. I know most of you here only follow a Christianity that isn't any older than the Reformation. You have little concept that a lot of what you believe has no basis in historical Christianity and what is orthodox. I have presented the Orthodox view of these things. Let's boil it down to the bare bones though: OSAS is NOT biblical. OSAS is not what early Christians believed. We both know OSAS ignores the scriptures I posted. We both know it has nothing to do with enduring to the end. We both know you believe in some kind of altar call theology, after which you consider yourself saved. If anyone trips up, then we both know you believe that person had a false conversion. Orthodoxy rejects this view. A life in Christ is a journey, not something to be cut up to an altar call moment. It does a huge disservice to everyone.

Well, let's get this down to barer than bare bones.

First, I don't need biblical history or to know what is orthodox to follow a conversation on OSAS.

Second, not being orthodox has nothing to do with what is Biblical and not Biblical.

Third, If you mean by 'what early Christians believe' you are talking about the Apostles, than I think I know very well what the early Christians believed. Thank you.

Fourth, if your point is that we are to endure to the end, that doesn't change OSAS. Because all Christians want to endure to the end.

Fifth, you have no idea who has a conversion and you are not the judge of that. That is Jesus job.

So, I think you are off on four tangents proving nothing really.

 

[seashale76]

Well, let's get this down to barer than bare bones.

First, I don't need biblical history or to know what is orthodox to follow a conversation on OSAS.

Second, not being orthodox has nothing to do with what is Biblical and not Biblical.

Third, If you mean by 'what early Christians believe' you are talking about the Apostles, than I think I know very well what the early Christians believed. Thank you.

Fourth, if your point is that we are to endure to the end, that doesn't change OSAS. Because all Christians want to endure to the end.

Fifth, you have no idea who has a conversion and you are not the judge of that. That is Jesus job.

So, I think you are off on four tangents proving nothing really.

You do realize that questioning the advice of other posters is against the board rules here? Perhaps you need to stick to responding to the OP lest you keep getting responses you don't like from others.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

May I add it's implied by your post that you feel like anyone who messes up has left God. Well I'm sure some have, but it's not fair to categorize all those who live in sin as unbelievers.....

...Now if someone claims to be a Christian but they never admit they've sinned or that their lifestyle choices like drinking, doing drugs, fornicating, whatever sin their in is wrong then yes I'd question their conversion. Because obviously someone who is saved and reads Gods word would have enough sense to know they're a sinner in need of Gods grace, but again it's not works it's our faith that saves us.

Yeah thats more of what I meant. We all mess up of course. I meant someone who became a christian, then later on essentially for example said God isn't read, they think the bible is fake, christianity is a joke and they, again as a example, go and become a buddhist. They liked to have sex with strangers. Swear all the time. Do LSD. Beat up people... and so on. Essentially living a life they would have if they didn't become christian.

Now this isn't to say those people can't ever go to heaven once they go so far in the opposite direction. God is forgiving. And of course assuming we make changes. Me? I know perfection (aka being sin free) is impossible. But I try my hardest to be the best christian I can. I'm like 99% clear of swearing now. Maybe once a year or twice in a moment of wrongness. I am married and faithful. Before marriage I was having sex with women I dated/engaged. I used to look at porn all the time...etc. So I've REALLY become a much better person now. Mind you what I am referring to in the past was after I was saved, but after my health got worse and I back slid VERY far from God.

Also, I would not (but maybe I hold God's Word to a higher plane) put that God would talk to a Christian in heaven after death and ask why one of His Own Children sent someone to hell, much less 7 people. Then asking why a Christian would send someone (more like 7 people) to hell.

That shows disrespect to our Lord, Christians and to yourself for posting something like that. It is very offensive.

I think that you are more than capable to make your point, whatever that may be, with another scenario which I would ask you to do by editing your post. I would like to hear your point but cannot get past the scenario you presented.

I guess I am confused as to what was offensive? That I mentioned God would question us? It does say in the bible we will be judged and have to answer for the things we've done. So in my I consider the ripples we make judgeable. Like if gave a christian bad advice, like suicide is ok to do, then he did it and ended up in hell. God would hold me accountable for leading a sheep astray. Now, not saying I'd go to hell for that of course. Just saying everything we have done we answer for. Which is why I REALLY try hard not to mess up because my list is long enough as it is I'm sure.

 

[Teslafied]

Yeah thats more of what I meant. We all mess up of course. I meant someone who became a christian, then later on essentially for example said God isn't read, they think the bible is fake, christianity is a joke and they, again as a example, go and become a buddhist. They liked to have sex with strangers. Swear all the time. Do LSD. Beat up people... and so on. Essentially living a life they would have if they didn't become christian.

Now this isn't to say those people can't ever go to heaven once they go so far in the opposite direction. God is forgiving. And of course assuming we make changes. Me? I know perfection (aka being sin free) is impossible. But I try my hardest to be the best christian I can. I'm like 99% clear of swearing now. Maybe once a year or twice in a moment of wrongness. I am married and faithful. Before marriage I was having sex with women I dated/engaged. I used to look at porn all the time...etc. So I've REALLY become a much better person now. Mind you what I am referring to in the past was after I was saved, but after my health got worse and I back slid VERY far from God.


I guess I am confused as to what was offensive? That I mentioned God would question us? It does say in the bible we will be judged and have to answer for the things we've done. So in my I consider the ripples we make judgeable. Like if gave a christian bad advice, like suicide is ok to do, then he did it and ended up in hell. God would hold me accountable for leading a sheep astray. Now, not saying I'd go to hell for that of course. Just saying everything we have done we answer for. Which is why I REALLY try hard not to mess up because my list is long enough as it is I'm sure.

I guess the question is, are you going to heaven because you've avoided those things or are you going to heaven because Jesus paid it all?

Our righteousness is as filthy rags, those works won't get you no where. Now of course what good we do on this earth will be rewarded in heaven, but our works isn't what gets us there.

Again I will add if we love Jesus we will want to keep His Fathers commandments which are; love God and love your neighbor. - but if someone is bound in sin and they know they're wrong then who are we to say they will go to hell? The key is remaining humble.

If you had a child and he or she slipped up would you beat them down? No. The bible says in Mathew 7:11 that if we being evil know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give you?

Sometimes we focus on other peoples sins more than we focus on our own. We need to learn to forgive others, and forgive ourselves because Jesus already has forgiven us if we choose Him.

I know I myself used to judge others for slipping up even going as far as to call them false converts and damn them to hell, all until I realized that I too have made mistakes in my life and I still do...

Now of course I'd hope they'd want to be set free of their bondages whether it be alcoholism, drug addictions, etc.

 

[Job8]

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation... what would you tell them?

1. When did you get saved?
2. How did you get saved?
3. Did you repent (turn away from your sins and idols) when you got saved?
4. Did you get baptized as a believer immediately after you got saved?
5. Do you know that if you are truly saved the Holy Spirit is within you?
6. Do you know that if you are truly saved sin cannot have dominion over you?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sometimes we focus on other peoples sins more than we focus on our own. We need to learn to forgive others, and forgive ourselves because Jesus already has forgiven us if we choose Him.

I know I myself used to judge others for slipping up even going as far as to call them false converts and damn them to hell, all until I realized that I too have made mistakes in my life and I still do..

I have tried to stay away from this myself.

There is a verse that says that to the point you judge others we place that same level of judgement upon ourselves.

That got my attention. [emoji102]

 

[Teslafied]

I have tried to stay away from this myself.

There is a verse that says that to the point you judge others we place that same level of judgement upon ourselves.

That got my attention. [emoji102]

Exactly. I was thinking about
That verse earlier today.

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't use labels like osas or lordship salvation, etc.

In order to be saved all one has to do is call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, that's it. Salvation is a free gift. When someone gives you a free gift, it's not truly free if there are strings attached.

Now may I add that a true conversion will bare some fruit over time, but I'd be careful in judging those who claim to be saved. Yes we can correct in love but we should never judge.

It's not works that saves us, it's grace by faith in Jesus Christ.

I do believe we can lose our salvation but only if we choose to give it up by denouncing Christ and fully meaning it.

I used to be the type of Christian that judged anyone even professing Christians if they had sin in their life, I believed it took more than faith but it also took works. I believed at the time that we Christians were called to righteously judge, I would judge myself before others. I would tell those I judged that I had no sin in me because I "was not living in or practicing sin". Crazy thing is if we say we have not or will not sin we are a liar. Humans sin daily, so it's not fair to say that we don't sin or that we are not living in sin.

Once we open our eyes and truly realize that once we judge ourselves and even others we shall see that no man is free from sin but by the blood of Christ which is shed for all that believe.

I've listened to many sermons I was deep in the holiness lifestyle, so deep that when I slipped up I beat myself up over it.... I didn't give myself any grace and I began to hate myself. i felt like if I made a mistake God would turn into Thor or Zeus and hit me with a lightening bolt (just kidding about the Thor and Zeus part), but I was seriously afraid. See now I know God IS love and He can tell if someone has truly given their heart to Him or not.

Now I don't think we are given a license to sin purposefully , and the bible says the wages of sin are death but we must realize that if you are saved your sin would not kill you spiritually.

If faith took works then could you imagine if even some one who lives what they perceive as a holy lifestyle would happen to slip up and sin, and they died before they repented.... In their belief system they'd go to hell for sinning. That all makes no sense. Why do you think Christ shed His blood? Because He knew nobody on this earth but Jesus Christ could keep the law in its entirety it's just not humanly possible.

Jesus was the only man who lived a sinless life, He could have stoned the adulterer, in fact He was the only one who could have stoned her but He did not! Also when Jesus told her to go and sin no more, He was warning her of the lifestyle she was leading because sin leads to physical death and hardships in this life.
https://redeeminggod.com/go-and-sin-no-more/

Nobody can keep the law, Jesus gave is grace so we'd realize that. He wants us to admit we sin and admit we need Him, He did not come for the righteous but He came for the sinners. The self righteous folk live as if they have everything all under control as if they don't need Jesus anymore and that's wrong we all need Jesus. If any man says He does not sin or live in some sort of sin he is a liar.

I like your attitude (spirit), but no one who is not saved is interested in salvation, even if it is described (however arguably) as a free gift. So no one who isn't saved (in faith) is going to ask for it.

 

[Rick Otto]

No. I follow the teachings of the bible and what Christ said. Read the post above yours about Revelation 20:12 and Matthew 25:34-45. If you wish to ignore Christ's warning, why pity me?

Do you not know your works is the reflection of your faith? Or do you just believe Christ is the Son of God and there's only one God and now you're eternally saved?

There, you have a clue... works reflect faith, they don't produce faith.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Read what I wrote in post 52 about eternal life. No one can get saved unless they first enter into eternal life (a relationship) with God/Christ.

Eternal life
Eternal life is the life everlasting in the presence of God. "This is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent," (John 17:3).

There are two senses in which this is used. First, Christians possesses eternal life (1 John 5:13), yet they are not in Heaven or in the immediate presence of God. Though man is still in his mortal body and he still sins, however, by faith man is saved (Rom. 4:5, Eph. 2:8-9) and possesses eternal life as a free gift from God (Rom. 6:23). Second, eternal life will reach its final state at the resurrection of the believers when Christ returns to earth to claim His church. It is then that eternal life will begin in its complete manifestation, especially seen in that man will no longer sin.

Brother do you have a church and a pastor to lead you in correct theology? There are basics that you need to understand.

There is nothing about that definition that means a relationship with God, which is how you defined it above.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I like your attitude (spirit), but no one who is not saved is interested in salvation, even if it is described (however arguably) as a free gift. So no one who isn't saved (in faith) is going to ask for it.

Is this like don't bother to even talk about Jesus or share the gospel?

Because is not that our first calling? To share the good news with others?

What is happening in our churches? or even on our forums? Calvin is taking over and IT IS NOT WHAT GOD WANTS.

People just need to start telling people about Jesus Christ and stop worrying about all the details. The Holy Spirit works on the heart, our job is that they hear the gospel.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I also don't believe in if your "truly" saved sin had no control over you. I mean, we are still going to do sins even when saved. Whether it be a lie, a swear, liking something worldly for a day...etc.

If however someone means if your "truly" saved, sins will have no control over you, but it doesn't mean you won't struggle at times. Then that I could believe because it would make sense. Because it would be blasphemy to say your sin free, as in never going to sin again, since your saying your essentially Jesus. And by that I mean only Jesus did no sins.