If you followed OSAS...

[ToBeLoved]

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him...

John 10:28-29
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Prior to God drawing us and saving us we are utterly unable to pursue or choose Him:

Romans 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Colossians 1:21
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled



False. Believer and unbeliever are not judged in exactly the same way:

John 3:17-18
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

John 5:24
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Romans 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...

What is the truth?

Romans 3:19-22
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe...

Every believer is justified before God solely through faith in Jesus Christ. Christ's righteousness is applied to the believer and it is by this application of Christ's perfect righteousness to each of us that we are made acceptable to God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 2:16
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

We cannot ever earn God's acceptance because the standard for His acceptance is holy perfection. It is foolish to think that we can live well enough before God that we can earn our salvation. If that were possible, Christ did not need to die for us. The truth however is that perfectly righteous living, which is what God demands, is totally beyond any of us. This is why we must be justified before God through Christ. His righteousness is sufficient, it is perfect, and when we are placed in Christ by faith in him as Saviour and Lord, we are clothed in his righteousness and therefore justified (declared righteous) by God.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Because we are "accepted in the beloved" who is Christ we do not need to fear that we will lose our acceptance with God. Christ's righteousness never falters or changes; it is always completely acceptable to God and those who are clothed in it are likewise always accepted by God.



That is NOT what the writer of Hebrews wrote. No where in Hebrews 10 does the writer say, "Even Christ' sacrifice on the cross will no longer cover that sin." Christ's sacrifice was perfect. It atones for all sin.

Hebrews 7:26-27
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 10:10
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

If a person sins willfully knowing the truth of God and the salvation of Christ, if they choose rebellion against God rather than a relationship with Him, they place themselves under the wrath and judgment of God. This is not someone who has been genuinely saved and then apostasizes, but an unbeliever who understands the truth of the Gospel (vs. 32) but who ultimately rejects it. They are "tares" who in appearance seem to be believers, but when persecution and affliction arise because of their association with Christ, cast off their superficial connection to him and reveal their true unregenerate condition. They are those who "draw back to perdition" (vs. 39) and who in so doing reveal that they have not exercised saving faith in the Gospel.



This is flat-out false. Good works are utterly meaningless if one is not first saved. What does God say?

Isaiah 64:5-6
5 ...You are indeed angry, for we have sinned-- In these ways we continue; And we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Good works only have value when they emanate from a love for God (1Cor. 13:1-3) and from a life in Christ. Clearly, then, it is not good works that are the important thing, but being born again into God's family.



No, this is completely wrong. God does not get you into shape. He puts you to death! As the apostle Paul explains, the "old man," the person you were before being saved, is crucified with Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Colossians 3:3
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

What remains for the believer is to present themselves a "living sacrifice," a "vessel sanctified and meet for the Master's use," a "slave of righteousness" in whom and through whom the life and power of Christ may flow.

Philippians 1:20-21
20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death.
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

How different Paul's understanding of the Christian life is from your own!



False. The gift of salvation is Christ Himself.

1 John 5:10-13
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.



This is a profoundly corrupt and juvenile explanation of God's truth. And in its corruption it is also destructive. Beware, Hannah, of taking anything this fellow says as true.

Selah.

Amen. Great responses!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi Albion/ToBeLoved, I just finished talking with another another Judaizer (who was also anti-Pauline) in another thread, and showed him, principally via Acts, that when St. Paul turned to the Gentiles (Acts 13:44-48, I think), he hardly turned away from the preaching/evangelizing of his own people .. ever (though he did stop preaching to the Jews .. exclusively). Acts 14 to the end of the Book is replete with examples showing that his ministry focus was to the Greeks, as well as to the Jews, throughout all three of his missionary journeys. For instance, immediately after he "turns" from the Jews in Acts 13:46, here's how Acts Chapter 14 begins:

"...they (Paul and Barnabas) entered the synagogue of the Jews together...........and they spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both Jews and Greeks" Acts of the Apostles 14:1

Chapters 15 & 16 are not quite as helpful with this, but beginning again in Acts 17 we read:

Berea:

The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:10

Athens:

While Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.
So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present." Acts 17:16–17

Corinth:
1 After these things he left Athens and went to Corinth.
2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them,
3 and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers.
4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. Acts 18

11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
12 But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat,
13 saying, “This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law.”
14 But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, “If it were a matter of wrong or of vicious crime, O Jews, it would be reasonable for me to put up with you;
15 but if there are questions about words and names and your own law, look after it yourselves; I am unwilling to be a judge of these matters.” Acts 18

Ephesus:

19 They came to Ephesus, and he left them there. Now he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. Acts 18

8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
10 This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 19

And as St. Paul clearly tells us in Romans 1: "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

There is much more, of course, but I hoped this helped a bit.

--David

Thanks for the information. My question focused on the churches in the Epistles (Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, Galatia, Phillipi, Thesollica, ect).

Some one said that the leaders and elders that were installed in these gentile churches were Jewish. I questioned that. and asked for verses showing SPECIFICALLY that the elders in the Gentile churches were Jewish.

Do you see any or know of any Bible verses that would either confirm or deny this? Any further info is appreciated.l

 

[St_Worm2]

Thanks for the information. My question focused on the churches in the Epistles (Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, Galatia, Phillipi, Thesollica, ect).

Some one said that the leaders and elders that were installed in these gentile churches were Jewish. I questioned that. and asked for verses showing SPECIFICALLY that the elders in the Gentile churches were Jewish.

Do you see any or know of any Bible verses that would either confirm or deny this? Any further info is appreciated.l

Hi ToBeLoved, I'll have to look, though the evidence for that is going to be scant when compared to the amount of evidence showing that St. Paul, even after saying that he was, "turning to the Gentiles" (Acts of the Apostles 13:46), never failed to preach to/evangelize his own people throughout the entirety of his life.

As for elders installed in Gentile churches, the first one that comes to mind is St. Timothy. He was St. Paul's disciple/student and he was obviously Jewish, but I'm not sure which church or churches he was an elder in. Since many of St. Paul's converts were Jews living in Gentile cities, I suspect that the churches that formed in those cities were led by BOTH Jews and Gentiles (but that is conjecture on my part).

Romans 16 might be useful since St. Paul names a number of his "fellow workers" there, who were clearly leaders. The question is, were they Jews or Greeks?? Looking at their names, I would say they were both, but that is little more than conjecture as well.

My original reply was to Albion's post, which was in reply to yours, so I didn't address the specific question you raised above, just the point he made.

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi ToBeLoved, well, the plot thickens We know that St. Timothy's mom, Eunice, was Jewish, but the Acts of the Apostles 16:3 tells us that 1) his father wasn't (he was Greek) and that 2) he wasn't raised as a Jew because he wasn't circumcised (which is interesting because he certainly would have been considered Jewish if his family wanted him to be because that determination (IOW, who is and who is not Jewish by birth) has, since Abraham's wife Sarah gave birth to Issac, always been determined by the child's mother.

So I'm not sure that this is going to be much help, but at least it's a start

Yours and His,
David

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi ToBeLoved, well, the plot thickens We know that St. Timothy's mom, Eunice, was Jewish, but the Acts of the Apostles 16:3 tells us that 1) his father wasn't (he was Greek) and that 2) he wasn't raised as a Jew because he wasn't circumcised (which is interesting because he certainly would have been considered Jewish if his family wanted him to be because that determination (IOW, who is and who is not Jewish by birth) has, since Abraham's wife Sarah gave birth to Issac, always been determined by the child's mother.

So I'm not sure that this is going to be much help, but at least it's a start

Yours and His,
David

Very interesting point about Timothy being uncircumcised. Because if his family was a practicing Jewish household, I'm pretty sure under the Old Covenant he would have to have been circumcised. So, I'm not thinking he was a practicing Jew.

 

[St_Worm2]

Very interesting point about Timothy being uncircumcised. Because if his family was a practicing Jewish household, I'm pretty sure under the Old Covenant he would have to have been circumcised.

No question about it, but there's also no question that he was raised at least in the knowledge of Jewish faith, by both his mother and his grandmother. I'll need to search through my history books to find out more.

Here's a quote you might want to read from an article found at: http://www.churchhistory101.com/century1.php

Early Conflict
In Acts 6 we get the first sign of internal trouble. The Hebrew widows were being cared for while the Grecian widows were neglected. As we mentioned above, Jews from all over the empire had made pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the great festival of Pentecost and had witnessed the strange, yet supernatural events described by Luke. Many had trusted in Jesus as the promised Messiah and made the decision to stay in Judea rather than make the trek back home (it is possible that these early believers were waiting for the apocalyptic return of Jesus).

- Hellenized Jews
Large numbers of Jews lived outside Palestine in the first century. These are the Jews of the Diaspora, the "scattering," or "exile" of the Jews throughout the Greek world - first in 722 BC when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel, then in 588 BC the Chaldeans conquered the southern kingdom of Judah. The victors in both instances forced the Jews to be relocated, thus diluting their national and cultural strength. Over the next few centuries the Hebrew language was neglected and forgotten by these exiled Jews. Most diaspora Jews of the first century spoke Greek. In fact, sometime in the third century BC the Jewish scriptures (Old Testament, OT) were translated from Hebrew into Greek so that these Greek-speaking Jews could hear and understand the Law of Moses. This famous translation is known as the Septuagint (or LXX), a reference to the legendary story that 72 scribes translated the various texts in a 72 day period with a divinely inspired perfection of agreement.

These Jews of the diaspora were referred to as "Hellenized" ("Greek influenced") by the politically important, Hebrew-speaking Jews of Palestine. Palestinian Jews despised these Hellenized Jews, believing they had compromised their religion. They could not speak Hebrew, God's language, nor could they understand the Law of Moses when read in Hebrew. When Hellenized Jews came to Jerusalem they were urged to attend Greek speaking synagogues so they could hear and understand Moses being read. They were not wanted in the Temple. We know that the Jews hated Samaritans, and were not fond of Gentiles. Luke tells us this prejudice found its way into the primitive church - Hellenized widows were being neglected.

I have had someone ask me a question regarding my use of "Palestinian" Jew, suggesting that the use of "Palestine" was not biblical. This person had found the following information online:

It is clear, then, that the Bible never uses the term Palestine to refer to the Holy Land as a whole, and that Bible maps that refer to Palestine in the Old or New Testament are, at best, inaccurate, and, at worst, are a conscious denial of the biblical name of Israel.

According to Luke, the apostles solve this problem by appointing seven men to new leadership positions. If you look closely you will find that these men are all Hellenized Jews. The apostles apparently realized that the minority class needed representation in the leadership of the church. In the next chapter we find Stephen (one of the seven deacons) preaching aggressively against the Jewish leadership and, more importantly, against Temple worship. Hellenized Jews living outside Judea were forced to find a more spiritualized way for obeying the Law of Moses since they did not have access to the Temple nor to the sacrificial system. This spiritualized Judaism is attested to in the writings of Philo of Alexandria and in the writings of the Qumran community (The Dead Sea Scrolls). In the next few chapters of Acts we see these Hellenized Jews taking the gospel to Samaritans, Ethiopians, and other non-Palestinian Jews. The Great Commission is being extended, but it should be noted that non-Jews continue to be excluded by these Hellenized evangelists (Acts of the Apostles 11:19). It takes a special person to push the infant church outside the Jewish boundaries - Saul of Tarsus is that person.
​

Gotta go for a bit, but I hope to be back later tonight

--David

 

[ToBeLoved]

Would you expand on this please Sam?

Welcome to CF if no one has said so yet.

 

[GoodGRACEshus]

Welcome to CF if no one has said so yet.

Thank you

 

[rocknanchor]

Hey, we got some catch'n up to do Tadpole.

 

[Swan7]

MOD HAT ON

This thread went through some heavy duty cleaning!

Please remember the rules: Also found here

Flaming and Goading​

● Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue.
● Do not personally attack other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.
● NO Goading. This includes images, cartoons, or smileys clearly meant to goad.
● Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.
● If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button.​

If your post was deleted it's because of it was deemed as Off Topic or Flaming and Goading. Sorry for the inconvenience!
Thanks for your patience!

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Lulav]

Since many of you apparently missed the MOD HAT my Lovely Trainee posted
or maybe just ignored it..............
This Thread has had to be cleaned again.
Let me tell you why.

The purpose of this forum is
Christian Advice Statement of Purpose

Christian Advice is a non-debate area for members to ask and receive Biblically-based, Christian advice for a struggle they are encountering. Christian Advice is a Christians only area, but non-Christians may ask questions if they are seeking advice of a Christian nature. Christian advice is defined as advice which contains basic Christian principles that do not conflict with the site's Statement of Faith. Christian Advice is not a debate forum, nor is it a place to discuss theology. If you wish to debate Christian theology, there are other forums dedicated to that purpose.

Now there has been too much debating in here
as well as flaming. Using large lettering and
making it Bold and red is not giving advice
so please refrain from that type of posting.
I am going to reopen this in hopes that the rules will
be complied with, so
​