If you followed OSAS...

[Matthew Twentyfour]

You've obviously confused the birth of faith with its maturation.

Explain to us, what is the birth of faith and it's maturation. I think you're the only one in the world that knows this.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

I can't even pretend to be in this hypothetical situation because OSAS is so unbiblical. It's a matter of timing. If by 'once saved' you mean that the believer in question endured in the faith until the end of their life and finished his or her race, then yes, that individual is 'always saved'. If, however, you simply mean someone had a conversion experience, then no dice. I've seen how that works. The conversion experience person will go through a period where he or she stumbles and has issues, and the OSAS crowd will cry, "Oh, that person had a 'false conversion'." LOL- whatever.

I reject both the Calvinism and the Arminianism, as one is a modern doctrine that has no basis in historical Christianity, and the other was developed as a counter to the first. It's amazing how Christianity survived over 1500 years without either.

The faith vs. works dilemma is one that began during the Protestant Reformation. Suddenly, everything became a faith vs. works, or a faith or works debate. In reality, you'll have both faith and works. A better way of putting it is that one will have a faith that works. I only usually see this dilemma among Reformed types and Calvinists- so it's really not even all Protestants or Evangelicals. Arminianism was a response to Calvinism and what they saw that was wrong with it. This debate ignores the whole picture and the totality of what the scriptures say.

Justification is the process of becoming righteous. Justification by faith is being in a covenant with God. Because of Christ fulfilling the law, we're no longer under the Old Covenant, and Christ's Church is under the New Covenant. So, justification isn't a one time event for us. We're in a covenant with God, which is centered around union with Christ.

Salvation is having faith in Christ, receiving the indwelling/gift of the Holy Spirit, and coming to a knowledge of God the Father. Yes, we have faith, but it is a gift by the grace of God, and it is actually God's mercy (and not our faith) that saves us. God draws us to Himself.

Faith is something of an action word. It's continuous, and it isn't a one moment in time deal. You are saved at your baptism into Christ, you are being saved through life in the Church and partaking of the sacraments, and you will be saved at the Final Judgment. So, a life in Christ is a journey to us. We don't attempt to break things down, but see things holistically.

Hebrews 12:21
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19
By standing firm you will gain life.

2 Thessalonians 4:7-8
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Acts 14:21-22
They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch, strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Proverbs 24:16
a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

(Apologies if you've seen this post from me before. I refuse to reinvent the wheel when certain topics come up. I'll simply rehash old posts of mine. I've been here at CF since 2004.)

ETA: So- what would I tell the friend? Everyone goes through rough spots. I would pray for them and encourage them to stay active in church and partake of the sacraments.

This is an excellent post. It really got to the heart of the matter and it's origin.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

I'm confused.

First you say OSAS is unbiblical, than you say it may not be unbiblical if it has a specific timing, then you say if not in the timing that is is biblical. Then you say LOL whatever?

From their you move on to Calvinism and Arminianism. That one is modern and has no base historically, but the other also has no base in history and is not only modern, but the modern response to the other modern response.

Then you move on to the Protestant Reformation.

Then plunge into faith vs. works. Call that a long held debate, but then say it is both faith and works so it is not a long held debate? From their remove the 'and' and just say 'faith works'.

Then another talk about Reformation, Calvinists, Protestants, Evangelicals and Aminians.

Ending with that all these things ignore the totality of the scriptures. I am confused.

seashale76 pretty much nailed it on the head. It's amazing! Some of you guys that believes in OSAS so strongly don't even realize how it came about? Yet seashale76 and myself totally reject OSAS has some type of knowledge of where it came from and how it evolved into mainstream Christianity.

You should study up on Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation Movement of the 16th century. Maybe that might help you understand everything more clearly. I promise you it's worth your time as your soul really does depend on it. It's a very ugly picture you'll want to know about.

 

[JLB777]

Of course, and many of the relevant verses have recently been cited by other members on one thread or another.

Scripture for your specific statement, not what others wrote.



JLB

 

[Albion]

Scripture for your specific statement, not what others wrote.



JLB

It was not what others wrote but the verses that they have cited. Besides, I made several different, specific statements there, so unless this is going to be an actual exchange of ideas....

 

[Rick Otto]

Explain to us, what is the birth of faith and it's maturation. I think you're the only one in the world that knows this.

You think that because of your investment of passion in egoistic folly. I know that from experience.
Faith matures as it is exercised. Acts of faith sanctify us. You may correlate that maturation with sanctification.

The 'birth of faith' as I put it, describes the moment we are blessed with saving grace, the moment of our spiritual birth (hence, "born again").

 

[Rick Otto]

Is this like don't bother to even talk about Jesus or share the gospel?

Because is not that our first calling? To share the good news with others?

What is happening in our churches? or even on our forums? Calvin is taking over and IT IS NOT WHAT GOD WANTS.

LOL!
Calvin pioneered dor-to-door evangelism. The myths of anti-Calvinism are many and strong.
In fact, it can be considered even more reason to preach, because it is a numbers game, not about effective style, etc.
God gets all the credit for every salvation.

If it was like, "so let's not bother..." I would not be "wasting time" with you, here & now.

 

[ToBeLoved]

LOL!
Calvin pioneered dor-to-door evangelism. The myths of anti-Calvinism are many and strong.
In fact, it can be considered even more reason to preach, because it is a numbers game, not about effective style, etc.
God gets all the credit for every salvation.

If it was like, "so let's not bother..." I would not be "wasting time" with you, here & now.

It's the overall attitude

If one is called they WILL believe. If they are NOT called one does NOT believe.

That's exactly how it sounded, the underlying premise. I think enemies of God like that.

I read it all over CF. Defeat. Christians are lax. Lazy. Maybe defeat is just easier.

God called Paul to risk his life and the other apostles and we have and can do nothing. No body has ears that can hear?

Me no like Calvin. Me no like reading posts with his theology.

 

[Rick Otto]

It's the overall attitude

If one is called they WILL believe. If they are NOT called one does NOT believe.

That's exactly how it sounded, the underlying premise. I think enemies of God like that.

I read it all over CF. Defeat. Christians are lax. Lazy. Maybe defeat is just easier.

God called Paul to risk his life and the other apostles and we have and can do nothing. No body has ears that can hear?

Me no like Calvin. Me no like reading posts with his theology.

Fine. But I don't consider his soteriology unbiblical. I do part ways with him on sacramentology and ecclesiology, especially in the area of church discipline.
I no likey "free will" posts, but I still accept free will donations.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Fine. But I don't consider his soteriology unbiblical. I do part ways with him on sacramentology and ecclesiology, especially in the area of church discipline.
I no likey "free will" posts, but I still accept free will donations.

Well. Let's spread the gospel without either. Neither is needed. The gospel goes on no matter what.

Let's all have the same zeal. I wish we did.

However. We are Christ's mouthpiece. That is the calling. It never changed.

On a side note. If you really listen to the tone of their writing I think any of us can tell. Try it sometime. You get really good at seeing tone.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well. Let's spread the gospel without either. Neither is needed. The gospel goes on no matter what.

Let's all have the same zeal. I wish we did.

However. We are Christ's mouthpiece. That is the calling. It never changed.

On a side note. If you really listen to the tone of their writing I think any of us can tell. Try it sometime. You get really good at seeing tone.

I hear ya. I am a musician, and I listen for tone before listening for lyrical content... but I know you are speaking of an attitudinal tone. I can't argue that too many "Calvinists" have "attitude", but I see that as true of all Christians. I spent enough time among them to know that just like in every other sect, there are a remnant of good attitudes.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I hear ya. I am a musician, and I listen for tone before listening for lyrical content... but I know you are speaking of an attitudinal tone. I can't argue that too many "Calvinists" have "attitude", but I see that as true of all Christians. I spent enough time among them to know that just like in every other sect, there are a remnant of good attitudes.

My main point is this.

When one believes that those called are saved, then the need a is not as much for the gospel, because the person may here the gospel anywhere or no where.

Does a person that is destined need to hear it? Maybe not because all chosen are saved anyway. Hypothetically a Bible could fall out of the sky and land in front of them open to Paul's words. Right? If it is Gods will. Right? Or maybe a chosen person sees a bumper sticker and is like 'I need Christ!' And that resonates. Or a picture of Jesus in ones toast. That happened. Maybe it is the new gospel. Bread and toaster. Send one for 14.99. I hear Calvinists live toast. With butter & Jelly.

But if we look at each person like they could die before we see them again or before they hear of Christ, than the need is immediate.

I can put off anything for months. So I see a major difference of view of intensity and timeliness.

I think it is not rocket science.

 

[Rick Otto]

My main point is this.

When one believes that those called are saved, then the need a is not as much for the gospel, because the person may here the gospel anywhere or no where.

Does a person that is destined need to hear it? Maybe not because all chosen are saved anyway. Hypothetically a Bible could fall out of the sky and land in front of them open to Paul's words. Right? If it is Gods will. Right? Or maybe a chosen person sees a bumper sticker and is like 'I need Christ!' And that resonates. Or a picture of Jesus in ones toast. That happened. Maybe it is the new gospel. Bread and toaster. Send one for 14.99. I hear Calvinists live toast. With butter & Jelly.

But if we look at each person like they could die before we see them again or before they hear of Christ, than the need is immediate.

I can put off anything for months. So I see a major difference of view of intensity and timeliness.

I think it is not rocket science.

OK, but I don't even think a person has to ever hear the words, "Jesus" or "scripture" to be saved. I believe the gospel is being declared 24-7, 365 by God's creation (psalm 19).
It just hammers on one Calvinist nerve ending I have, to hear how important "free will" is to establishing authenticity of identity because God made everything, including my will - so how can I will what he hasn't made me to?
You could say he gave me freedom, but then He only gave me the kind and amount of freedom He wanted to. It is still only what He gave me.
But what bothers me most about it, is how it is used to take credit for salvation, as if it was a free decision to accept what the Bible says is considered foolish (the gospel) to all except those being saved.

1Cor.1

1. [18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

So to me, it is obvious one must be saved before the gospel has any value to them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So to me, it is obvious one must be saved before the gospel has any value to them.

Well if this is true than someone needs explain why Jesus and all the Apostles highest priority WAS sharing the gospel.

That makes no no no sense at all.

How do you account for Jesus saying this (with the caveat that Jesus was perfect)

I really want to hear this.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You should take that advice. Find a good non-OSAS pastor.



Well if you didn't get it the first time. Read it again a second time. If you still don't get it, read it a third time or as long as it takes until you get it. Here it is again.

To be exact, Eternal Life is a relationship with God/Jesus because they both come to live within us as the holy spirit. This is found in John 14:23. However, you will not receive the holy spirit unless you first do His commandments. This is found two verses prior in John 14:21.

Eternal Life has two meanings in the bible. Sometimes the bible will also use it to indicate immortality but generally it's a relationship with God/Jesus through Jesus. The voice of the holy spirit is Christ.

A) The biblical view of Eternal Life:

John 17:3 explains eternal life as coming to know God and Christ. (this implies a relationship) Same thing in 1 John 17:3, that we may come to know Him: a relationship. In 1 John 5:10-13, that we will have life with Christ. He's the voice of the holy spirit and will lead you into all truth. (John 16:13, John 8:32, Matthew 11:29)

Jesus said in Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." This is what 1 John 5:10-13 is talking about, Christ coming to have a personal relationship: "that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life"

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

1 John 5:10-13
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Here's a question. If eternal life is immortality living in heaven in the future and not a relationship with God/Jesus you can have right now on earth, why does Acts 13:48 indicate they already have eternal life?

Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Here's another question. We've been taught that salvation comes by receiving Christ as Lord and Savior. Why would Matthew tell us eternal life can be attain by leaving our families and residency?

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Same thing here in the parable of the young rich man. We've been taught that salvation comes by receiving Christ as Lord and Savior. But Jesus tells him he can have eternal life by following the 10 commandments.

Matthew 19:16-19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One,that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’



B) The external view (audio) of Eternal Life:

C) The external view of Eternal Life:

https://carm.org/dictionary-eternal-life

Eternal life is the life everlasting in the presence of God. "This is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent," (John 17:3).

There are two senses in which this is used. First, Christians possesses eternal life (1 John 5:13), yet they are not in Heaven or in the immediate presence of God. Though man is still in his mortal body and he still sins, however, by faith man is saved (Rom. 4:5, Eph. 2:8-9) and possesses eternal life as a free gift from God (Rom. 6:23). Second, eternal life will reach its final state at the resurrection of the believers when Christ returns to earth to claim His church. It is then that eternal life will begin in its complete manifestation, especially seen in that man will no longer sin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_life_(Christianity)

In Christianity, eternal life traditionally refers to continued life after death, as outlined in Christian eschatology. The Apostles' Creed testifies: "I believe... the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting." In this view, eternal life commences after the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead, although in the New Testament's Johannine literature there are references to eternal life commencing in the earthly life of the believer, possibly indicating an inaugurated eschatology.

According to mainstream Christian theology, after death but before the Second Coming, the saved live with God in an intermediate state, but after the Second Coming, experience the physical resurrection of the dead and the physical recreation of a New Earth. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day." [4] N.T. Wright argues that "God's plan is not to abandon this world... Rather, he intends to remake it. And when he does, he will raise all people to new bodily life to live in it. That is the promise of the Christian gospel"[5]

In the Synoptic Gospels and the Pauline Letters, eternal life is generally regarded as a future experience, but the Gospel of John differs from them in its emphasis on eternal life as a "present possession".[6][7] Raymond E. Brown points out that in the synoptic gospels eternal life is something received at the final judgment, or a future age (Mark 10:30, Matthew 18:8-9) but the Gospel of John positions eternal life as a present possibility, as in John 5:24.[8]

Thus, unlike the synoptics, in the Gospel of John eternal life is not only futuristic, but also pertains to the present.[2][6][7] In John, those who accept Christ can possess life "here and now" as well as in eternity, for they have "passed from death to life", as in John 5:24: "He who hears my word, and believes him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."[3] In John, the purpose for the incarnation, death, resurrection and glorification of The Word was to provide eternal life to humanity.

http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-eternal-life.html

When the Bible speaks of eternal life, it refers to a gift of God that comes only “through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). This gift is in contrast to the “death” that is the natural result of sin.

The gift of eternal life comes to those who believe in Jesus Christ, who is Himself “the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). The fact that this life is “eternal” indicates that it is perpetual life—it goes on and on and on, with no end.

It is a mistake, however, to view eternal life as simply an unending progression of years. A common New Testament word for “eternal” is aiónios, which carries the idea of quality as well as quantity. In fact, eternal life is not really associated with “years” at all, as it is independent of time. Eternal life can function outside of and beyond time, as well as within time.

For this reason, eternal life can be thought of as something that Christians experience now. Believers don’t have to “wait” for eternal life, because it’s not something that starts when they die. Rather, eternal life begins the moment a person exercises faith in Christ. It is our current possession. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” Note that the believer “has” (present tense) this life (the verb is present tense in the Greek, too). We find similar present-tense constructions in John 5:24 and John 6:47. The focus of eternal life is not on our future, but on our current standing in Christ.

The Bible inextricably links eternal life with the Person of Jesus Christ. John 17:3 is an important passage in this regard, as Jesus prays, “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Here, Jesus equates “eternal life” with a knowledge of God and of the Son. There is no knowledge of God without the Son, for it is through the Son that the Father reveals Himself to the elect (John 17:6; 14:9).

This life-giving knowledge of the Father and the Son is a true, personal knowledge, not just an academic awareness. There will be some on Judgment Day who had claimed to be followers of Christ but never really had a relationship with Him. To those false professors, Jesus will say, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Matthew 7:23). The apostle Paul made it his goal to know the Lord, and he linked that knowledge to resurrection from the dead: “I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead” (Philippians 3:10–11).


The most important thing to know is you cannot a relationship with God/Jesus without Him coming to live within you through the holy spirit. Without the holy spirit within you, there is no relationship whatsoever, period!

There's two ways that I know of how a Christians can attain the holy spirit. The easiest way is to do what Christ said in Matthew 19:16-19 (the parable of the young rich man). The second way is to go through tribulations until you've come to the end of yourself, feeling lost, hopeless and totally defeated with life. That's when Jesus will said "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28) Then you will begin to know Jesus personally as He reveals Himself/God. (Matthew 11:27) And will teach you all truth. (Matthew 11:29, John 16:13, John 8:32).

Take the easy route and do the commandments as He advised in Matthew 19:16-19, and continue praying for the holy spirit as you do the commandment in obedience. Otherwise He will humble you for past sins until there's reverence before He comes.

Nothing changes your strange theology and you would learn a lot from my pastor.

I don't even think you need to be worried about OSAS.

You need to plant seeds in your theological garden before you worry about other things.you still don't know the gospel, sin and eternal life yet.

Build on a rock of good theology. Slow down and get the basics

 

[Rick Otto]

Well if this is true than someone needs explain why Jesus and all the Apostles highest priority WAS sharing the gospel.

That makes no no no sense at all.

How do you account for Jesus saying this (with the caveat that Jesus was perfect)

I really want to hear this.

How else would saved people know the gospel makes sense, and unsaved people think it doesn't, if neither of them hears it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

How else would saved people know the gospel makes sense, and unsaved people think it doesn't, if neither of them hears it?

I don't think a lot of sense really needs to be made.

Jesus Christ died for the sins of all, that those who come to Him in faith are saved from their sins, through grace by Christ's death on the cross.

I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.

Where is one spending eternity?

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't think a lot of sense really needs to be made.

Jesus Christ died for the sins of all, that those who come to Him in faith are saved from their sins, through grace by Christ's death on the cross.

I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.

Where is one spending eternity?

I would answer, "It's entirely up to God."

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would answer, "It's entirely up to God."

And all the churches. I'm sure God when He said He wants all, He meant all.

 

[Job8]

Exercising one's faith involves work.

If that were really true, then the Bible would not contrast faith and works. How can faith involve work when it is simply believing and trusting?