"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

[Marvin Knox]

What I have found over the years is that most of the time the OSAS crowd and the non OSAS crowd talk past one another because they are too busy trying to argue things that the other does NOT teach so that their arguments sound better. If we set aside the rhetoric and just discuss scripture we might decide we agree more than disagree we just don't really know how to express that

I have found over the years that the non OSAS crowd doesn't believe that God is the author and finisher of our faith.

I have found over the years that the non OSAS crowd displays a profound lack of understanding concerning the basic doctrine of salvation by grace.

I have found over the years that the non OSAS crowd lacks understanding concerning both what Christ accomplished at Calvary and what He accomplishes in the life of His people after they come to Him because they were drawn to Him by the Father because He gave them to Him before the foundation of the world.

I have found over the years that there are two basic reasons why the OSAS crowd and the non OSAS crowd talk past each other. They are:

1. The OSAS crowd seems to lack either the wisdom or the ability to simply state the basic facts concerning their beliefs and let the Holy Spirit do His work in convicting the other side of their error.

2. The non OSAS crowd displays a basic flaw in all of our fallen human natures. That flaw is an inherent desire be in full charge of all things pertaining to our lives - including those things concerning salvation.

As for me personally - I am more than happy to turn my eternal destiny completely over to God - because, as the OP rightly says, "if I could lose my salvation I would".

I am not ashamed to be humble enough to admit that sad fact and cast all of my cares on the Lord who cares for me - knowing that He is well able to keep what I entrust to Him against the day of judgement.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul says it is enough.Put your faith in the saving Gospel found in 1cor15:1-4 and don’t pervert it by adding to it and you will be saved.When you stand before God,Paul says that belief in his Gospel is what you will be judged by.

Romans 2:4-16 is what Paul says you will be judged by
2 Cor 5:10 is what Paul says you will be judged by

 

[Tree of Life]

Some angels fell ... other angels did not fall -- that means the "saying" being attempted here failed right out of the gate because in the "saying" all angels that can choose will choose rebellion.

And obviously - that was not true.

You think that angels are subjects who are capable of being saved by Jesus?

 

[BobRyan]

. Is there any Biblical evidence to suggest OSAS is the case?

“Anyone who asks to be saved WILL be saved”...... it does not say “ will be put on probation”.

Until you read Romans 11

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

What about repentance? And following God's commandments?

Repentance is built- in to Paul’s Gospel.If we could keep the commandments, Jesus died in vain.we can’t keep them,that’s why God gave us something we “could “ do—- believe the Good News thAt Jesus delivered through
Paul.

 

[thesunisout]

I recently came across this quote from John MacArthur. I don't love everything from him (see footnotes on dispensationalism), but I thought that this hit the nail on the head.

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

How can anyone who is truly saved deny this? If you truly know the power of God and the depths of your own sin, how can you deny this?

You'd have to say something like:

"Well I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm determined!" or
"I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm smart!",
"I had a good upbringing!",
"I'm stronger than most!"​

Isn't it much better to say:

"If I am saved at all it is because the marvelous strength and grace of God which he continually supplies me"?​

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

My salvation doesn't depend on me, but I can choose not to love God and walk away from Him. God gives us that choice just as He gives us the choice to submit our lives to Christ. We are not robots who are forced to submit our lives to Christ. If we don't abide in Christ, we will be cast out:

John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

 

[Tree of Life]

My salvation doesn't depend on me, but I can choose not to love God and walk away from Him. God gives us that choice just as He gives us the choice to submit our lives to Christ. We are not robots who are forced to submit our lives to Christ. If we don't abide in Christ, we will be cast out:

John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

Don't your words suggest that your salvation in some sense depends on you? Whether or not you're saved depends on your choice to love God or not, right?

 

[Neogaia777]

I recently came across this quote from John MacArthur. I don't love everything from him (see footnotes on dispensationalism), but I thought that this hit the nail on the head.

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

How can anyone who is truly saved deny this? If you truly know the power of God and the depths of your own sin, how can you deny this?

You'd have to say something like:

"Well I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm determined!" or
"I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm smart!",
"I had a good upbringing!",
"I'm stronger than most!"​

Isn't it much better to say:

"If I am saved at all it is because the marvelous strength and grace of God which he continually supplies me"?​

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

If it is possible to lose out on Christ, the question is whether only God alone can judge this and not us...? Or, if we can, should we...? And if so, how should we do it...?

Also, Whether repentance is a one time thing,or is something you may have to do multiple times, or is an (repentant) attitude or state of mind you keep and maintain through it all...

Can anyone claim to be sinless, or maybe you just are at the moment, but will and do sin sometimes.. What's that make you...? How can anyone claim to be sinless, and say they'll never ever sin in their life again...?

God Bless!.

 

[BobRyan]

You think that angels are subjects who are capable of being saved by Jesus?

They are examples of sinless beings -- some of whom made very bad choices.

On earth when a lost sinner is born-again they STILL have a sinful nature and we all admit that they still sin and fall short of the glory of God at times even AFTER being baptized... they still make bad choices.

So even at their best "they are making bad choices" how much MORE prone are they to "bad choices" with their still-intact sinful natures ... than the sinless beings of heaven... 1/3 of which chose rebellion.

 

[Tree of Life]

so you believe that we have no choice in ourselves whether we follow God and accept Him or not. I know there are people who believe that but I find it contrary to so many passages I can't accept it as truth which means we will disagree on pretty much everything from that point on.

This depends on what you mean by "choice". The term "freewill" or other libertarian freewill terminology does not occur in Scripture. And the notion of libertarian freewill is not a biblical concept. The Bible does talk about freedom and slavery, though.

We are free insofar as we act on our desires. A free act is something we do because we want to do it. We are not coerced or forced against our will, but we act freely - according to our will.

We have this kind of freedom. So in that sense, we do legitimately choose to follow God or not. But when we choose to repent of sin and believe in Jesus, it's because we want to repent of sin and believe in Jesus. This is God renewing our wills and giving us new desires which enable us to freely choose him (Philippians 2:13). In other words, no one chooses God against their will.

Similarly, we sin because we want to sin. And if someone refuses to repent it's because they do not want to repent. Their sinful hearts make it impossible for them to turn to God because they do not want to turn to him (Romans 8:7-8). Those who reject God do so freely - because they want to reject God.

Either way, it is still God who works to renew our minds, hearts, wills, and make it possible for us to embrace him.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Tree of Life]

Happy Birthday @Houston Watson.

The possibility of losing salvation is not implying an inevitability to lose it exists.

I'm not talking about inevitability. I'm talking about possibility. MacArthur's statement is that if it is possible to lose salvation, then we certainly would lose it. The implied premise is that our hearts are so sinful and we are so prone to wander that if any part of our salvation depended upon us then we would surely lose it.

If you are saved, baptized, and a member of the Church, but then convert to another religion 20 years later and kill Christians you are no longer saved.

This is begging the question. You're already assuming that the person described was saved. From an OSAS perspective, the apostate was never truly saved at all.

There are many people who are saved early in their life but later reject God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ. The renounce everything. They are no longer saved.

OSAS does not deny that people apostatize. They just believe that apostates were never truly saved. Again you are begging the question here.

If OSAS was the case, then it encourages a "one and done" attitude, that once you are saved you can never lose that salvation, and thus can do whatever, regardless of its sinfulness. Perhaps I misunderstand the thinking, but to me it seems like OSAS is not a good way of going about salvation. The Bible is clear that the path to salvation requires both parties, God and man, to consent. Those who believe Christ is the savior and attempt to lead a righteous life are saved as a result of God's grace. However, God would not grant his grace to a person who was once saved then turned away and no longer met any of the requirements for salvation on their part. Is there any Biblical evidence to suggest OSAS is the case?

Yes, you have deeply misunderstood the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS).

 

[BobRyan]

Either way, it is still God who works to renew our minds, hearts, wills, and make it possible for us to embrace him.

True - and of course John 12:32 tells us that God supernaturally "draws all mankind to Him" to enable that choice for all.

 

[Tree of Life]

I like the passage you bring up but look a bit closer at it and tell me what it says about the OSAS topic....John 17...there are two important things that apply to the topic at hand...1. Jesus is asking that He would not loss any....if it were not possible for Him to loss any why would He ask God to not allow Him to loss them? 2. look at verse 12 None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

One was lost...so either this passage does not apply to the OP question or it shows that we can fall away.

In John's gospel Judas is constantly described as "a devil". Though he was chosen as one of the twelve, he was always a son of destruction. He's a great example of an apostate. He was in the inner circle but he was never truly saved. Otherwise how could Jesus call him a devil before he betrayed him?

 

[A_Thinker]

right but there is nothing I can find in scripture that says that we can't die a spiritual death by rejecting Christ after we are born or reborn into spiritual life which in the context of the discussion is what we are talking about.

What I think you should rather be looking for is scripture which indicates that spiritual'everlasting life can end ...

 

[Tree of Life]

They are examples of sinless beings -- some of whom made very bad choices.

Some angels fell. But no angel can be called "saved". Jesus didn't die for angels. Hence, angels cannot lose their salvation.

On earth when a lost sinner is born-again they STILL have a sinful nature and we all admit that they still sin and fall short of the glory of God at times even AFTER being baptized... they still make bad choices.

Agreed.

So even at their best "they are making bad choices" how much MORE prone are they to "bad choices" with their still-intact sinful natures ... than the sinless beings of heaven... 1/3 of which chose rebellion.

I agree that saved people still struggle with sin. What's the relevance here to the OP?

 

[Tree of Life]

True - and of course John 12:32 tells us that God supernaturally "draws all mankind to Him" to enable that choice for all.

Would you mind answering the following questions in order:

If God makes it possible for all to embrace him then why don't all embrace him?
What is the existential difference between someone who chooses Jesus and someone who rejects him (assuming both have an equal opportunity)?
If this difference is something in the person, then doesn't this mean that salvation depends on some virtue in the person and not entirely on God?

 

[thesunisout]

Don't your words suggest that your salvation in some sense depends on you? Whether or not you're saved depends on your choice to love God or not, right?

The bible suggests that if we don't abide in Christ we'll be cast out. That means losing your salvation, and it isn't something you can get back according to Hebrews 6. So, it isn't that you are saved one day, not saved another day, and then saved again. If you aren't following God I believe He gives you a grace period as in Luke 13.

No, this doesn't mean my salvation depends on me. It depends on God, because He is the one casting you out. If God didn't cast someone out, they would remain saved. God determines in His sovereign will whether someone should be cast out, and I am sure that is after giving them many, many chances and still being rejected. We see that record in the Old Testament where Israel rebelled time and time again and He would finally give them up to a foreign power to be carried away captive.

 

[Tree of Life]

There are Scriptures that would seem to suggest a person could loose their salvation, passages from the book of Hebrews comes to mind, and I only mention this because if this issue were so obviously black and white, far fewer would deny the doctrine of the perseverance of the Saints (P). In reality, I do not think many who deny P believe or think of themselves as smarter, stronger, or better, and it could be argued that because they believe salvation can be removed from them, or they could choose to jump ship, that it is arrogant to think otherwise, especially when those holding (P) speak of free will using the same language.

They may not come out and say it and they may not even think it in their hearts. But I think it is implicit in their view. I just remember asking an Arminian pastor friend the simple question: "Why did you choose Jesus and someone else who had the same opportunity didn't?" He really didn't know how to answer. If the decision does not depend on God then it must in some way depend upon us. There must be some virtue in us that distinguishes us from those who reject Jesus.

 

[Tree of Life]

The bible suggests that if we don't abide in Christ we'll be cast out. That means losing your salvation, and it isn't something you can get back according to Hebrews 6. So, it isn't that you are saved one day, not saved another day, and then saved again. If you aren't following God I believe He gives you a grace period as in Luke 13.

Does it mean losing your salvation? Jesus said in John 15 "I am the vine, you are the branches." If there are any branches in him which do not bear fruit, God will cut them off. It's exegetically possible that this is a reference to losing salvation. But is it exegetically certain? It could also be a reference to the visible body of Christ - the church. God cuts off unfruitful members of the church. This does not mean that they've lost their salvation (as they never had it to begin with), but that God purifies his church and works to remove false believers and apostates.

No, this doesn't mean my salvation depends on me. It depends on God, because He is the one casting you out. If God didn't cast someone out, they would remain saved. God determines in His sovereign will whether someone should be cast out, and I am sure that is after giving them many, many chances and still being rejected. We see that record in the Old Testament where Israel rebelled time and time again and He would finally give them up to a foreign power to be carried away captive.

Why would God cast you out? Why would he keep you in? Doesn't that depend on you?