If You Believe in White Privilege

[RDKirk]

It sounded like your example applied to more than just the category of race. But if that is what they found, I won't argue it. Apparently I just know more overt racists.

So when they found this, did it apply all directions, or just one direction? Was the study only on race, or other factors?

The example I gave was:

This could be something like at performance review time, Sergeant Jimmy Smith remembers that Airman Jane Doe calls in sick every 28 days, but doesn't remember that Airman Mike Jackson comes in late the Monday after every payday.

Why did that sound like race to you?

 

[tall73]

The example I gave was:



Why did that sound like race to you?

It didn't. Which is why I was surprised when you replied with "I just told you they did" when I inquired about them not knowing about bias in regards to race.

 

[tall73]

In this case "privilege" does not necessarily equate to wealth. Explain to me what discrimination means. Let's say I, a black man, am applying to a job a tech firm. How might discrimination play a role? Why does the word discrimination not make white people uncomfortable?

I'm not sure you and I are seeing eye to eye on this. Do you think white privilege applies to people, or race?

And you think that blacks in this country do not suffer any setbacks because of their race?

A lot of people tend to look at black people and question why they are not able to accomplish as much as white people do. As a result, those failures are attributed to race, rather than situation. Blacks aren't intelligent. Blacks aren't hard working. Black aren't creative. Blacks are violent. Blacks are criminals. It turns out people who swear they don't believe these things are still affected by these ideas. As a result we have fewer opportunities and fewer options. And we've ended up in a situation that's hard to get out of. The idea of white privilege is that white people are not burdened with that situation. So just knowing that it's not the race, it's the situation does something to reverse course.

See, the problem is most White people do not hear about white privilege in an academic setting. They hear it through people telling them they have white privilege as a way to minimize their contribution, or telling them they can't give their opinion because they are a white male, etc.

Now, I didn't need to hear the term white privilege to realize the generational impacts of slavery, targeted alcohol ads in the inner city, the effects of discrimination in sentencing, etc.

Those are all things I can get without introducing a term that most people who use it are using as a weapon rather than an informational tool.

 

[PeachyKeane]

See, the problem is most White people do not hear about white privilege in an academic setting. They hear it through people telling them they have white privilege as a way to minimize their contribution, or telling them they can't give their opinion because they are a white male, etc.

Now, I didn't need to hear the term white privilege to realize the generational impacts of slavery, targeted alcohol ads in the inner city, the effects of discrimination in sentencing, etc.

Those are all things I can get without introducing a term that most people who use it are using as a weapon rather than an informational tool.

Discrimination and racism are better words?

I have always taken these words to convey a feeling of 'you can't really understand' rather than as a weapon. Is it perhaps your interpretation?

 

[tall73]

And you think that blacks in this country do not suffer any setbacks because of their race?

I have already indicated they do.

This conversation has been going on for some time, and I still can't get people to explain what I am supposed to do with this notion of white privilege.

I have agreed that we all have various advantages by accident of birth. I have agreed there was systemic racism, and still is racism in society. That has clearly disadvantaged black people. And I have addressed systematic means by which institutions try to weed out bias, both of a racial nature, and otherwise.

But the question I have been asking is how do folks want us to use this information of white privilege in our daily lives? If I indicate I am mitigating bias in my thinking, and have tried to root ideas of racism, I am told that I am just denying the subconscious bias I still have and cannot recognize. So what am I supposed to do about a bias I can't recognize?

At this point I am going to assume whatever message I am supposed to get from white privilege is already taken care of, because no one is telling me what I am supposed to change in my everyday thinking. I am already aware of various types of inequity. And I don't see how fixating on possible bias I could have, but would not know, is going to benefit anyone.

People seemed to object when I mentioned to the other poster that he may not need to be afraid every time he gets in an elevator with a group of black men, that it is possible to change thinking. I am still unsure why that would be a problem to suggest that someone could leave behind a bias, especially one that makes being around another group uncomfortable.

Are you all wanting to make sure everyone continues to know they have insurmountable bias, or are you wanting to try to get rid of the bias? It seems anyone who says they have bias, even if it is considerable bias, is considered to have got the white privilege message. But anyone who says they looked at bias in their life and tried to root it out is just misguided and still a racist, and doesn't get that you will always have bias.

Well then, there is no solution. If I will always have bias I cannot recognize, what more am I to do? I cannot fix what I cannot recognize. So this seems to be just something to make me uncomfortable talking to blacks, rather than comfortable, which should be the goal.

I may as well go back to what I was doing before, and not worrying about it. I am not in any decision making role at the moment where I determine anyone's fate. I feel fine interacting with black people, so I am not going to change that by wondering what bias I have that I cannot know every time I talk to them.

 

[tall73]

Discrimination and racism are better words?

I have always taken these words to convey a feeling of 'you can't really understand' rather than as a weapon. Is it perhaps your interpretation?

Yes, to me discrimination and racism are better words. They describe the activity and thinking. White privilege is still a misnomer. Others are disadvantaged from what they should be. It should not be seen as an advantage to be treated like a human.

And there are a million things that we cannot understand about any human being. But if that is used to say I have to question my many subconscious biases every time I am around every person, then that is a way to make everyone stand-offish, not get along better.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I have already indicated they do.

This conversation has been going on for some time, and I still can't get people to explain what I am supposed to do with this notion of white privilege.

Nothing. There's nothing that can be done except to take away points where bias can effect outcomes. This is the way things are and how they will most likely be for quite some time.

 

[PeachyKeane]

Yes, to me discrimination and racism are better words. They describe the activity and thinking.

Remember, it isn't exactly thinking.

White privilege is still a misnomer. Others are disadvantaged from what they should be. It should not be seen as an advantage to be treated like a human.

It should not be. But it is. As a black man I am seen as a lower caste than most citizens. This is just how it is, and how it will be.

And there are a million things that we cannot understand about any human being. But if that is used to say I have to question my many subconscious biases every time I am around every person, then that is a way to make everyone stand-offish, not get along better.

That's not what it means. It has little to do with individual, isolated interactions. It's more big picture.

 

[LoAmmi]

Remember, it isn't exactly thinking.



It should not be. But it is. As a black man I am seen as a lower caste than most citizens. This is just how it is, and how it will be.



That's not what it means. It has little to do with individual, isolated interactions. It's more big picture.

As an aside, I hope nothing I said offended you in this thread.

 

[PeachyKeane]

As an aside, I hope nothing I said offended you in this thread.

I will say nothing has, but I'm not sure I read the whole thread.

 

[LoAmmi]

I will say nothing has, but I'm not sure I read the whole thread.

Sometimes reading a whole thread is like staring into the abyss.

 

[tall73]

Nothing. There's nothing that can be done except to take away points where bias can effect outcomes. This is the way things are and how they will most likely be for quite some time.

Well then I am unclear why it is so critical to tell everyone about all the bias they have but cannot know, so they cannot do anything about. Of course, I think the alternative is quite possible. I think you can actually change your thinking and stop being biased. Apparently you do too on some level because you said your level of bias changed over time, so that it is now only slight.

So why then is it a problem if mine did too? Why does that make you improving, and me just a self-deceived still racist who doesn't know it?

Remember, it isn't exactly thinking.

And if it isn't thinking then it is pointless to think any more about it outside of formal selection. I can't recognize it.

It should not be. But it is. As a black man I am seen as a lower caste than most citizens. This is just how it is, and how it will be.

Yes, but that is a disadvantage to you. It is not a privilege to be treated as human. You have been treated as less than human, and that is terrible. And as a white person hearing this narrative, I am much more sympathetic to the plight of those who have obviously been treated as less than human, through no fault of their own, than by being told I am a secret racist with privilege for being treated like humans should.

The more important the message the more carefully you have to craft how to deliver it so that it is not rejected--especially if you think we are operating constantly on bias.

That's not what it means. It has little to do with individual, isolated interactions. It's more big picture.

The only control I, and many white people, have big picture is

a. teaching our children and others, which I do.
b. voting.

So if this is a political narrative with a goal, spell out the goal.

In any case, the term white privilege doesn't convey to most white people what it is intended to convey.

 

[mama2one]

The only control I, and many white people,
a. teaching our children and others, which I do.
b. voting. .

when I was on a forum (it's gone now) , the majority of forum members were adopting children of another race than themselves

many members said that if one wasn't friends (not acquaintances) with people of other races, than they might have prejudice and if so they have no business adopting

so wonder how many whites have friends from other races?
how many nonwhites have friends who are white?

 

[PeachyKeane]

Well then I am unclear why it is so critical to tell everyone about all the bias they have but cannot know, so they cannot do anything about. Of course, I think the alternative is quite possible. I think you can actually change your thinking and stop being biased. Apparently you do too on some level because you said your level of bias changed over time, so that it is now only slight.

Yes. And being aware of it changed things. I started spending more time with people who are a different race than I. I eventually moved to Korea, then Canada, and married a white woman. More than just my opinions on race changed. My whole worldview changed.

So why then is it a problem if mine did too? Why does that make you improving, and me just a self-deceived still racist who doesn't know it?

I am not accusing you of anything. You are making an effort to be aware of your bias. That may be all any of us can do. But most people will never do that.

And if it isn't thinking then it is pointless to think any more about it outside of formal selection. I can't recognize it.

Yes, but that is a disadvantage to you. It is not a privilege to be treated as human. You have been treated as less than human, and that is terrible. And as a white person hearing this narrative, I am much more sympathetic to the plight of those who have obviously been treated as less than human, through no fault of their own, than by being told I am a secret racist with privilege for being treated like humans should.

What I'm saying is that everyone is a secret racist.

The more important the message the more carefully you have to craft how to deliver it so that it is not rejected--especially if you think we are operating constantly on bias.

People are going to reject it no matter how it's stated.

The only control I, and many white people, have big picture is

a. teaching our children and others, which I do.
b. voting.

So if this is a political narrative with a goal, spell out the goal.

In any case, the term white privilege doesn't convey to most white people what it is intended to convey.

What do you think it needs to convey?

 

[tall73]

when I was on a forum (it's gone now) , the majority of forum members were adopting children of another race than themselves

many members said that if one wasn't friends (not acquaintances) with people of other races, than they might have prejudice and if so they have no business adopting

so wonder how many whites have friends from other races?
how many nonwhites have friends who are white?

I am not sure how many do in general. And often, especially in some town, by de facto segregation in regions, if you do have white friends it may be just a few.

I do think that if children are around people of a variety of races early on they simply see everyone as people.

But then I don't think the cause is helped when a white person who mentions he has black friends is then marginalized because that is what all the racists say, and he can't understand their situation.

Well, no. I can't understand all kinds of situations from experience, but I can still treat the person as a person.

And my black friends don't seem to require that I approach them as a puzzle to be deciphered after I analyze every possibility of inherent bias. They just want to be treated like everyone else. It is much simpler to do that than wonder what unconscious bias I might exhibit next, but could never know.

 

[tall73]

when I was on a forum (it's gone now) , the majority of forum members were adopting children of another race than themselves

Without a doubt that makes you more aware of the obstacles. One of my relatives (fortunately on a different branch than the racist side) had a child from a first marriage who is white, and has a child from a second marriage who is black. You are forced to deal with a lot of things on a different level when you encounter racism towards your child.

But as more and more people come to realize that people are people, we see more and more of these relationships, and that is reducing bias in the long run.

Our church has several families with parents of different races, and with parents who have adopted children of different races, and of course, some who are just black, etc. The congregation is not overly large. So when we have all the kids together probably close to half are from minority races. This is great. Because the kids right away learn to be together.

Part of the reason I rejected my parent's views on the race issue is that we were poor enough to live on the historically black side of town growing up, in a town with one of the more segregated histories (and therefore current realities as well). My parents of course did not care for this, but I saw no difference between the white kids and the black kids I would play with. We all played out doors back then, so we just hung out with whoever was around.

 

[tall73]

Yes. And being aware of it changed things. I started spending more time with people who are a different race than I. I eventually moved to Korea, then Canada, and married a white woman. More than just my opinions on race changed. My whole worldview changed.

And that sounds great.

But then do you really have to keep considering yourself a secret racist? If you have changed your whole world view, then realize you could still have flawed thinking crop up, but you are not a racist.

If you are always a secret racist in your mind, then it is hard to get excited about telling folks to get rid of racism. If it is insurmountable, then what is the point? If it is largely surmountable, then share that.

I have no interest in thinking of myself as a secret racist. Similarly, as a Christian I realize I still have a sinful nature. But while I am aware that my sinful nature is there, and can still come up if I am not walking in the Spirit, I don't then focus on the sinful nature. I focus on living in the Spirit as I should. I get not all reading in this section would relate to that part. But the point is that it is not enough to know I am flawed. That is obvious, but doesn't change my flaws. I must go on to live my faith and move beyond what my messed up thinking was doing in me. And If I experience that new better life, I want more of that, not more focus on my flaws so that I become fixated on them.

I am not accusing you of anything. You are making an effort to be aware of your bias. That may be all any of us can do. But most people will never do that.

Understood, and thank you. I don't know what percentage do go on to evaluate. I guess my concern is just how to reach them in a way that is most likely to work so that more do. And I don't see the term white privilege as helping that, especially among the youth, of which my kids are a part. There is a backlash to a lot of the identity politics, and a lining up along racial lines, instead of what we should see. And it is concerning.

Now as has often been mentioned to me, I cannot relate to every part of the black experience. That is completely true. But I do have experience being raised in a racist environment, and what it took to get through to me. So when I am talking about messaging, and how we approach the issue, it with that in mind.

What I'm saying is that everyone is a secret racist.

And what I am saying is that the level at which we are a secret racist, if you use that terminology, is not set in stone, and we need to root it out as you referenced doing, and I have also done.

But you need to be careful how you present the notion that we are secret racists. Because the folks who recruit for white identitarian movements, and white supremacy movements take those narratives, point to them, and say, see we cannot escape our biases. We are a tribal species, so you better get on board with your tribe because conflict is inevitable. And they are reaching a fair number of people with this, especially in online venues.

Now understand, I am for open debate, even on such issues as that. Because I think if you debate those premises folks will eventually see that it is not accurate. So I don't think censoring such conversations is helpful. But I do think those conversations are happening, and they leverage talk of white privilege to initiate them.

We have to think of counter narratives that are effective and not ultimately hopeless. If I am being told I cannot escape my bias, then that is a hopeless message. If I am being told that you don't have to keep treating people as sub-human, that you can move beyond your biases, then I can buy into that.

People are going to reject it no matter how it's stated.

Some are. But for many it matters how you phrase it. If I wanted to craft a message for a specifically African American demographic I would be much better served having African Americans write it. If you want to write a message to reach white racists, you are better off having former white racists write it. They know what reached them.

What do you think it needs to convey?

That you don't have to be a prisoner of hopeless bias forever and always treat people as sub-human.

 

[tall73]

This is why Martin Luther King Jr.'s I have a dream speech mattered. It is an ideal. No, we don't have that ideal yet. But if you lose sight of what you want to get to, and get bogged down with thoughts of racial bias being inescapable, then you have no path forward.

There is a very clear path forward. Root out your racism to the degree you know it, but don't be fixated on the notion that it is inescapable.

 

[tall73]

My faith made the biggest difference to my worldview.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

We are all of one blood, created by God.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

He sent His Son to die for us. So if He is living in me by His Spirit, then He will reveal His love for the people He created, and died for, and transform my motivations, so that I can will and do as He would will and do. No, I do not always allow Him to perfectly. But that happens more and more as He lives in me, not as I focus on my wrong thinking.

I can't recognize my bias. God knows my every thought, and can recognize it well. And at times God has revealed it to me.

 

[rturner76]

Thank you for clarifying what you see as the point of mentioning it.

I relayed earlier in the thread I can see in formal process (hiring, housing, etc.) it makes sense to take steps to eliminate bias.

How do you see this playing out in every day social interactions?

I think that it really depends on individual circumstances. Someone white or of color who grew up in a diverse multicultural community will be less affected and show less bias when hiring people and deciding who to hang out with than people who grow up around majority their own people. So for example in Harlem NY which has a significant black population, "White privilege" will not be a significant barrier to people in that community.

Mostly what I have found, even in my own personal experience is that it applies more in management situations. Even in small business. There is a culture, a walk, talk, dialect, and mannerisms that aren't obvious but are familiar to people of the same culture. A way of relating that puts a person at ease right away.

I guess the shame is that we have to use the word "white." There is some truth to it on some level but it's a little over simplified. There are distinctions even between different groups of "white" people. Maybe it should be WASP privilege or rich light skinned. I can understand why a white person who is poor and has been abused by the system would resent a term like "White privilege"