If You Believe in White Privilege

[A_Thinker]

If you want to go on with the cheery message of everyone is a racist and will be a racist no matter what, then go ahead.

But if someone can never please you, they eventually stop trying.

We don't believe that all whites are racist.

In fact, we are ever grateful for the partnership of caring whites who have joined with us in our struggle for equal rights and opportunities.

Certainly, we all do better ... together ....

 

[PeachyKeane]

Reposting this as I am not sure if you would see where I edited before.

There is no good news in your race gospel if all you are telling people is that they are racists, and will always be racist. It would be as if the only message delivered in Scripture is that you are a sinner, and have no hope in the judgment, so just deal with it. That was not the gospel.

The gospel is that you are a sinner but there is forgiveness for your sins. And God wants to live in you by His Spirit and live out His righteousness in you.

You need some good news in your message.

Truth is not enough?

 

[PeachyKeane]

How is it different to focus on your sins, or focus on Jesus? Considerably different.

Again: not telling people to focus on it. Just be aware of it.

 

[PeachyKeane]

But if your only message continually is "glad you recognized your racism, now remember, you still have lots more racism to recognize" there is no point.

That is hopeless groveling forever over something you say you can't even recognize.

That's not "my message". That's just how things are. I feel like you imagine me a part of some "White Privelege" cult. I'm not out on street corners with a sandwich board that says 'You're racist'.

But I can see how white privelege exists, how it happens, and why it happens.

If you prefer to feel that you have no racial bias, and know no racism, then here's what I can do. As a black man, I hereby absolve you of all bias and racism. You are officially not racist.

Honestly, not every story has good news. I foolishly thought for years that I could live a life where my 'blackness' would not be a decisive factor in my identity. But it is, and will be. My son is just as much white as black, but he will never be seen as anything other than black.

Things are as they are. Just because it isn't all good news is not reason to ignore it.

 

[tall73]

We don't believe that all whites are racist.

In fact, we are ever grateful for the partnership of caring whites who have joined with us in our struggle for equal rights and opportunities.

Certainly, we all do better ... together ....

Thank you, I appreciate those who take that stance.

 

[tall73]

If you prefer to feel that you have no racial bias, and know no racism, then here's what I can do. As a black man, I hereby absolve you of all bias and racism. You are officially not racist.

Apparently we have reached the end of any attempt at productive conversation. No I do not consider you a part of a cult dedicated to spreading a white privilege message. But, you are here talking about it. And your message has been continually that we will always be racist, despite acknowledging improvement.

My point was simply that for many in the generations who did not grow up with the constant racism, they don't think in the same terms. They don't consider themselves racist. They may have, like everyone, the capacity to make judgments about individuals based on many characteristics. But they are not starting from the point of racial bias that was in the past.

If you think that it is worth it to tell each of these people that they are racist, then I don't think that will end well.

But I am not part of an anti-white privilege movement either. I was just trying to give my view.

 

[PeachyKeane]

Apparently we have reached the end of any attempt at productive conversation. No I do not consider you a part of a cult dedicated to spreading a white privilege message. But, you are here talking about it. And your message has been continually that we will always be racist, despite acknowledging improvement.

My point was simply that for many in the generations who did not grow up with the constant racism, they don't think in the same terms. They don't consider themselves racist. They may have, like everyone, the capacity to make judgments about individuals based on many characteristics. But they are not starting from the point of racial bias that was in the past.

If you think that it is worth it to tell each of these people that they are racist, then I don't think that will end well.

But I am not part of an anti-white privilege movement either. I was just trying to give my view.

Let's try this: what is racism to you?

 

[rturner76]

You're talking about a "social order" as if it were a person choosing who it likes the best. Even as recently as 1900...the US population was almost 90% white. So even if slavery had never happened, if Jim Crow never existed, why wouldn't you expect there to be more wealthy whites than any other race?



Studies have shown that being made aware of racial biases does nothing to change them. You can't simply talk your way out of subconscious thoughts.

Again, you are illustrating my point. The "social order" is whites on top, whites incharge, whites, are the "king of the hill." For members of any other "race" to be included in the management positions or important positions of the backbone industries like transportation, agriculture, banking, etc. it is at the behest of the white males that control those industries. There is no way for any person of color to succeed in to any advanced level of any major industry without the permission of the white male. The fact that the white male has this position is white privilige no matter if it was Jim Crow or breeding that awarded it to them. It is still their privilege.

How can being aware of a issuenot help to sole it? I don't understand how that works that it doesn't How can not being aware of anissue make the issue easier to solve? If you are not aware of it, how can you take steps to correct it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

apparently, I didn't understand your "purpose" for starting thread

now that read "claim" in above sentence, then imagine that you personally don't believe there is such a thing as "white privilege"

what makes it important?
the fact that it exists

Perhaps I should have asked "What makes it more important than any of the other hundreds of kinds of privileges that exist?'

That's what I'd like to know...people have been talking about it, debating it, and generally putting a lot of effort into removing it....when compared to "beauty privilege" for example.

Why? What makes it so important?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Again, you are illustrating my point. The "social order" is whites on top, whites incharge, whites, are the "king of the hill." For members of any other "race" to be included in the management positions or important positions of the backbone industries like transportation, agriculture, banking, etc. it is at the behest of the white males that control those industries. There is no way for any person of color to succeed in to any advanced level of any major industry without the permission of the white male. The fact that the white male has this position is white privilige no matter if it was Jim Crow or breeding that awarded it to them. It is still their privilege.

Ok...you're saying a lot here, most of it wrong, but not all of it...so let's start where you're right.

Yes, white males are at the head of most industries. You'll find that to be true if you look all the way back to the industrial revolution. Why? Because it was white makes who built those industries. That's typically how it works...if you build something in this nation of ours, it's yours. If we look back far enough to previous centuries, it wasn't always this way. Way back in the times of kings and emperors...if you built something, it was theirs. I tend to look at the transition from a lack of any real property rights to having all sorts of property rights as a very good thing. It led men to create...and profit by it.

Now for where you're wrong...there's no group of white men stopping non-whites from being the head of industries. It's certainly not an easy thing to do...or everyone would do it. The competition gets tougher the higher you get in any industry...but the only thing that matters is merit. Think about it this way....

99 % of top NBA players are black. Is there some shadowy group of black NBA players who keep all the non-blacks out? Of course not...if a white, latino, or asian player was averaging 30+ points a game, 12 blocks, and 18 rebounds...he'd be right up there at the top.

Now...at the very bottom of the basketball player ladder, one might argue that race is a factor. If we go watch a pick up game of 16 yo kids at a park, we might notice that the black players get picked first...and if there's a lot of black players, the non-blacks might not get picked at all. Is that black privilege? Sure. Does it stop any non-blacks from competing in the NBA? No.

How can being aware of a issuenot help to sole it? I don't understand how that works that it doesn't How can not being aware of anissue make the issue easier to solve? If you are not aware of it, how can you take steps to correct it?

You're making the assumption that it can be corrected...but that's not the case with subconscious biases.

Let's say that we test you...and find out that you've got a bias towards seeing black men as criminals more often than white men. How did that happen? It's not as if you actually think black men are criminals just because they're black....yet somehow that bias exists deep in your subconscious.

Maybe it's because you've spent a lifetime of seeing black men on the news getting arrested for crimes. Maybe you work in a prison and see an overwhelming majority of black men. Maybe you live in a predominantly black area that has a hogh crime rate. Regardless of how that bias got there...its there.

So now that it's there...what good does telling you about it do? We already established that you weren't consciously thinking of black men as criminals...its a subconscious bias. Even if we reminded you every day that you have this subconscious bias.....if we tested you again 30 days later, you'd still have the same bias. You can't erase these things just by thinking about them...they were put into your subconscious slowly over time.

The good news? There's no real way to show that it's going to affect your behavior. Just because you have this bias, it doesn't mean you will treat black men as criminals.

Does that clear things up a bit?

 

[tall73]

Let's try this: what is racism to you?

Merriam-Webster:

Definition of racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b : a political or social system founded on racism
3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Now, the conversation however has not primarily revolved around notions of superiority of races. Rather it has revolved around your discussion of inherent bias.

But inherent bias is common to all, as you noted. It applies to more things than just race. And so if that is the case you can emphasize it without derogatory language such as "white privilege".

I have worked for male, female, black, hispanic, asian, white, etc. supervisors in the business world. They all seemed to be where they were at because they were competent.

Per your theory all of them would have inherent bias, not just the white ones. That bias could be around all kinds of issues. All of them could make decisions based on them. But the company generally had safeguards that ensured decisions were based on performance.

So if bias applies to all people, why would a term like white privilege be helpful? If all must guard against bias, then say that.

If the issue is attitudes regarding racial superiority, then you should celebrate those lessening, not say that everyone who discarded such notions is still a secret racist.

I am not asking for your "absolution" of my racism, because I am not a racist.

 

[tall73]

Perhaps I should have asked "What makes it more important than any of the other hundreds of kinds of privileges that exist?'

Exactly. I am friends with a person with a very low IQ. She is on public assistance as she cannot really find much of any employment. She reads, but struggles to do so, slowly and with little comprehension. She often cannot understand fairly simple stated instructions or printed instructions. She cannot readily grasp symbolic or abstract concepts

And of course, she is at times discriminated against based on her IQ. People try to take advantage of her financially because she doesn't understand all the issues involved.

Now we don't call people who have an IQ in the normal range "IQ privileged" because some have a lower IQ.

If the discussion is how to put everyone on the same level to start, I don't see how to do it. If the issue is to avoid discrimination, then I think that is something to work towards.

 

[PeachyKeane]

Merriam-Webster:

Definition of racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b : a political or social system founded on racism
3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Now, the conversation however has not primarily revolved around notions of superiority of races. Rather it has revolved around your discussion of inherent bias.

Yes.

But inherent bias is common to all, as you noted. It applies to more things than just race. And so if that is the case you can emphasize it without derogatory language such as "white privilege".

I have worked for male, female, black, hispanic, asian, white, etc. supervisors in the business world. They all seemed to be where they were at because they were competent.

Per your theory all of them would have inherent bias, not just the white ones. That bias could be around all kinds of issues. All of them could make decisions based on them. But the company generally had safeguards that ensured decisions were based on performance.

Yes. We should get better at that.

So if bias applies to all people, why would a term like white privilege be helpful? If all must guard against bias, then say that.

All must guard against bias. But here's the thing. 'White Privelege' is the idea that we (non-whites) don't feel like white people really understand what it feels like to be subject to the little, every day, racial incidents, because you've never been the minority in this country. As a result you kind of gloss over these incidents and then say racism is over.

If the issue is attitudes regarding racial superiority, then you should celebrate those lessening, not say that everyone who discarded such notions is still a secret racist.

In fairness, I'm saying everyone is a secret racist.

I am not asking for your "absolution" of my racism, because I am not a racist.

You know what the first person to say 'I'm not a racist' tends to be?

 

[tall73]

All must guard against bias. But here's the thing. 'White Privelege' is the idea that we (non-whites) don't feel like white people really understand what it feels like to be subject to the little, every day, racial incidents, because you've never been the minority in this country. As a result you kind of gloss over these incidents and then say racism is over.

I never said racism is over. I said those who are continuing to discriminate based on race are the ones to blame.

The rest are just doing what everyone does, having usual bias. And since everyone has it, whites are not the only ones to address in that sense. And people have it on all manner of things, not just race.

Now if you want to say that those who still think they are superior are not getting it--I agree. And I don't think talking about white privilege is the tool to get through to them.

In fairness, I'm saying everyone is a secret racist.

You think everyone thinks their race is superior?

Or you think we make judgments about individuals based on inherent bias? Because I don't think everyone thinks their race is superior. And as a general rule those who do think so would probably know they think that.

You know what the first person to say 'I'm not a racist' tends to be?

Sounds like a talking point.

We just agreed on the definition:

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Prove I think my race is superior.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I never said racism is over. I said those who are continuing to discriminate based on race are the ones to blame.

The rest are just doing what everyone does, having usual bias. And since everyone has it, whites are not the only ones to address in that sense. And people have it on all manner of things, not just race.

Now if you want to say that those who still think they are superior are not getting it--I agree. And I don't think talking about white privilege is the tool to get through to them.



You think everyone thinks their race is superior?

Or you think we make judgments about individuals based on inherent bias? Because I don't think everyone thinks their race is superior. And as a general rule those who do think so would probably know they think that.



Sounds like a talking point.

We just agreed on the definition:

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Prove I think my race is superior.

What I'm saying is that everybody attributes people's characteristics to race. Sometimes privately, sometimes outwardly. It's not always about superiority, but saying that person has attribute x, because of their race.

And, you could take an IAT test. When you get to the end, look at the number of test takers who prefer white people to black people. That's a privilege.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What I'm saying is that everybody attributes people's characteristics to race. Sometimes privately, sometimes outwardly. It's not always about superiority, but saying that person has attribute x, because of their race.

And, you could take an IAT test. When you get to the end, look at the number of test takers who prefer white people to black people. That's a privilege.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ps...s-implicit-bias-useful-scientific-concept?amp

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/iat-behavior-problem.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...3/7/14637626/implicit-association-test-racism

At best, that test is highly flawed and not very useful at all...

At worst, it's complete garbage which has misled many people, like yourself, into believing a lie.

 

[tall73]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culture-conscious/201706/is-implicit-bias-useful-scientific-concept?amp

A couple of quotes from the Psychology Today article you referenced in case some did not want to click on it:

The test-retest reliability (repeatability) of the Race IAT is only .42, which falls well below the psychometric standard of .80. Your score on the IAT can fluctuate significantly from one testing to the next.
---
2013, Frederick Oswald and his research team published a meta-analysis of 46 studies.[1] They found that IAT scores are poor predictors of actual behavior and policy preferences.

 

[PeachyKeane]

A couple of quotes from the Psychology Today article you referenced in case some did not want to click on it:

The test-retest reliability (repeatability) of the Race IAT is only .42, which falls well below the psychometric standard of .80. Your score on the IAT can fluctuate significantly from one testing to the next.
---
2013, Frederick Oswald and his research team published a meta-analysis of 46 studies.[1] They found that IAT scores are poor predictors of actual behavior and policy preferences.

Sounds like you're afraid to take the test. Look at it this way: if the results are not to your liking, you have deniability. If they do, you get to prove you're not racist. You win either way.

 

[tall73]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...3/7/14637626/implicit-association-test-racism

What seems like an important quote from this article you posted:

Greenwald emphasized to me that although a lot of people interpret this “automatic preference” as evidence of racism, his team doesn’t describe the results in that way. “I and my colleagues and collaborators do not call the IAT results a measure of implicit prejudice [or] implicit racism,” he said. “Racism and prejudice are explicit attitudes with components of hostility or negative animus toward a group. The IAT doesn’t even begin to measure something like that.”

 

[Ana the Ist]

A couple of quotes from the Psychology Today article you referenced in case some did not want to click on it:

The test-retest reliability (repeatability) of the Race IAT is only .42, which falls well below the psychometric standard of .80. Your score on the IAT can fluctuate significantly from one testing to the next.
---
2013, Frederick Oswald and his research team published a meta-analysis of 46 studies.[1] They found that IAT scores are poor predictors of actual behavior and policy preferences.

The team that came up with the test admitted back in 2015 that it's basically useless for predicting individual behavior.

I thought the most telling part though was the researcher who claimed that what the test really measured was stereotypes...and since most people believe bad things happen to black people, they associated those negative words with them.