If You Believe in White Privilege

[tall73]

Again, you're thinking about cognitive or conscious thought. Being aware of those biases may change behavior, or lead to ways to keep that bias in check.

I indicated methods could be used to prevent it. The example from the other poster of listening to someone auditioning without being able to see them was a good example.

Whether it is conscious or not, steps can be taken to root it out. If all you want to say is that people can have bias, then say that.

Calling it white privilege is not a neutral term.

If it helps, I score with slight preference of black people. Which is far better than I was 15 years ago.

So beyond the test, how does it work out when you are around non-black people? What do you do mentally?

That's the point. Neither of us may know about your bias. That might still cause decisions that hurt someone else.

The point being that we already both acknowledged their can be bias. There can be bias on lots of factors when it comes to decisions, which is why methods to root it out are helpful. But calling it white privilege is not a method. And it doesn't do anything but cause defensiveness.

If you are aware of a problem you can call it out. If you are aware of the possibility of a problem, then we can look at methods to root it out.

But a general awareness doesn't do anything if you don't then work out methods to apply that. And if you do work out methods then it doesn't matter if it is realized or unrealized bias.

What if you were ill because of the actions of the healthy people?

I addressed that. If someone caused my health problems, I might be tempted to resent them.

Are all white people causing your problems? Or are the ones who are discriminating causing your problems?

 

[tall73]

If it helps, I score with slight preference of black people. Which is far better than I was 15 years ago.

I tend to think most people are aware of their bias in this regard. But then I am guessing you are saying 15 years ago you had no idea of you preference for black people?

 

[tall73]

We are as a society forced to address the issues on two fronts.

First is the practical. We know there are still people who hold bias. Some we know do with full realization. You allege that many do without realization. Alright, let's go with that. Either way, if we know there is still bias, then we must think of systems of evaluation that eliminate that. And because we can never bring everyone to agreement on any idea, that may be a reality going forward. So on this point we agree. This though, in my thinking, applies primarily to structures, businesses, government, etc.

The second front though is ideological. We don't carry on all of our interactions with people the same way we make decisions about who makes the football team, or who gets to be in the orchestra, or which applicant to accept for housing or for a job.

If we want to change how we treat each other in normal conversation it cannot be a constant analysis of possible biases, etc. We have to change the thoughts at a higher level than that, and see people as on the whole like us, not unlike us.

If I assume I will always approach black people a different way than white people I will definitely wind up doing that because I filter all my thoughts and actions through that lens.

When I go to play basketball, I don't want to be approaching people as a complex puzzle that I might react to with 100 unknown biases. I just want to play ball with other folks there to play ball. And generally, we do just fine.

It is on this second, ideological level, that I see the term white privilege to be non-helpful. It is a term that causes white people to either be defensive, or introspective, or filter their interactions. That doesn't lead to treating people all the same.

 

[PeachyKeane]

We are as a society forced to address the issues on two fronts.

First is the practical. We know there are still people who hold bias. Some we know do with full realization. You allege that many do without realization. Alright, let's go with that. Either way, if we know there is still bias, then we must think of systems of evaluation that eliminate that. And because we can never bring everyone to agreement on any idea, that may be a reality going forward. So on this point we agree. This though, in my thinking, applies primarily to structures, businesses, government, etc.

The second front though is ideological. We don't carry on all of our interactions with people the same way we make decisions about who makes the football team, or who gets to be in the orchestra, or which applicant to accept for housing or for a job.

If we want to change how we treat each other in normal conversation it cannot be a constant analysis of possible biases, etc. We have to change the thoughts at a higher level than that, and see people as on the whole like us, not unlike us.

If I assume I will always approach black people a different way than white people I will definitely wind up doing that because I filter all my thoughts and actions through that lens.

When I go to play basketball, I don't want to be approaching people as a complex puzzle that I might react to with 100 unknown biases. I just want to play ball with other folks there to play ball. And generally, we do just fine.

It is on this second, ideological level, that I see the term white privilege to be non-helpful. It is a term that causes white people to either be defensive, or introspective, or filter their interactions. That doesn't lead to treating people all the same.

I'm just curious. Since we agree that black people are starting off from a weaker position than white people, (because of slavery, segregation, redlining, and just plain old racism) how are to approach that subject without disturbing the comfort of white people?

 

[LoAmmi]

We are as a society forced to address the issues on two fronts.

First is the practical. We know there are still people who hold bias. Some we know do with full realization. You allege that many do without realization. Alright, let's go with that. Either way, if we know there is still bias, then we must think of systems of evaluation that eliminate that. And because we can never bring everyone to agreement on any idea, that may be a reality going forward. So on this point we agree. This though, in my thinking, applies primarily to structures, businesses, government, etc.

The second front though is ideological. We don't carry on all of our interactions with people the same way we make decisions about who makes the football team, or who gets to be in the orchestra, or which applicant to accept for housing or for a job.

If we want to change how we treat each other in normal conversation it cannot be a constant analysis of possible biases, etc. We have to change the thoughts at a higher level than that, and see people as on the whole like us, not unlike us.

If I assume I will always approach black people a different way than white people I will definitely wind up doing that because I filter all my thoughts and actions through that lens.

When I go to play basketball, I don't want to be approaching people as a complex puzzle that I might react to with 100 unknown biases. I just want to play ball with other folks there to play ball. And generally, we do just fine.

It is on this second, ideological level, that I see the term white privilege to be non-helpful. It is a term that causes white people to either be defensive, or introspective, or filter their interactions. That doesn't lead to treating people all the same.

I think you've created a rather fantastical fiction based upon what I said earlier.

 

[tall73]

I'm just curious. Since we agree that black people are starting off from a weaker position than white people, (because of slavery, segregation, redlining, and just plain old racism) how are to approach that subject without disturbing the comfort of white people?

I would say that discussing discrimination and its impact informs and disturbs as well. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But when terms such as white privilege are employed, which describes all whites as in the same boat, it just offends more than informs. Is your goal to offend or inform?

Also, we did not agree that all black people are starting off from a weaker position than all white people. Lebron Jr. is certainly not starting off with as much of a disadvantage in the world as a poor white child. Is that his fault? Should I resent him? I don't see why I would.

Again, we all start at different points, in a number of ways.

 

[tall73]

I think you've created a rather fantastical fiction based upon what I said earlier.

Well the part I wrote there was not based on just your thoughts. But you can correct any portion you think is needed.

I am trying to evaluate what you all are saying. You seem to indicate everyone has biases. Some of those may relate to race for some people, or all people, depending on who is suggesting it.

In formal selection processes, I can see how that could be guarded against, and would be in favor of that.

I have asked more than once what it means on a daily basis to think that you have unrecognized bias towards groups, and how that impacts your interactions in less than formal situations. What do you actually do with that information?

I am not trying to distort your response, but to understand it, because, while you say I go through the same thing, I certainly do not perceive it the same way.

 

[tall73]

The idea that we cannot escape from our biases but just have to recognize them is also used by the white identitarian movements when they recruit. Some of them claim that since tribalism is inevitable, then you better align yourself with your tribe because you have to deal with reality. So they advocate for separate ethnic states, etc. because to deal with interacting is not realistic in their view.

I think a better narrative would be that people are not so different that we have to live separately. We do not have to view bias as insurmountable.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I would say that discussing discrimination and its impact informs and disturbs as well. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But when terms such as white privilege are employed, which describes all whites as in the same boat, it just offends more than informs. Is your goal to offend or inform?

What term should we use to preserve the comfort of white people, but still speak of this phenomenon?

Also, we did not agree that all black people are starting off from a weaker position than all white people. Lebron Jr. is certainly not starting off with as much of a disadvantage in the world as a poor white child. Is that his fault? Should I resent him? I don't see why I would.

I didn't say all. Are you contending that LeBron James is the typical black parent?

Again, we all start at different points, in a number of ways.

Yes. Are you contendin that blacks typically get the same start white people typically get?

 

[rturner76]

Also, if you intend to respond with aome argument about how things like Jim Crow allowed whites to create wealth while holding blacks back from creating wealth (a sort of non-specific white privilege argument)....then you should probably read this first....

Black-white earnings gap remains at 1950s levels for median worker

The disparity of income is basically the same now as it was back under discriminatory laws. The disparity is smaller for top earners....but for the bottom end of earners, its actually larger than it was under racially discriminatory laws. So it's going to be hard to argue that the laws back then are the cause of differences in wealth that we see now. You can, of course still try to make that argument....I'm just trying to give you a heads up on how difficult it will be.

Then again, if you want to say "Gee...I guess white privilege can't really account for the differences in wealth between the races in modern times"....that's always an option. I hold those who can admit when they're wrong in higher esteem than those who can't.

I only got this far in the tread before I wanted to reply so this may have been discussed already. The funny thing is, you have just, with that statistic you touted, propped up the argument that white privilege does in fact exist.

"White Privilege" exactly about what a father passed down to his son etc. though much wealth in general black or white is passed down. What the phase encompases is thebuilding of a society by Europeans, where Europeans put in place a system in which they would in perpetuity, dominate the socio-economic structure of the entire nation.

This illustrated by the statistic you quoted. Not only that, In a more important statistic, in a study of a group of fortune 500 company senior executives: 73% were white, 21%Asian, 3%Latin 2%black the rest were more than one race or Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander. This statistic shows that Black and Latin people though educated and experienced, are not accepted in the management of America. They are not allowed into positions of power and influence. Even Asians who are accepted as executives are not accepted as CEOs because 1% of fortune 500 companies have non white male CEOs

This is what is meant by white privilege. The fact that certain positions still are only given to white males. The people who are "in charge." The people who "set policy" The only ones who can run Major Media Corporations, Banking, Transportation, Military Contractors, Huge construction companies are all headed up by white males who set the policy and culture for hiring, training, and work conditions. If you are white and educated you can be one of these CEOs. If you are a minority and educated, you can not.

White Privilege

There's no privilege competing for a job at Burger King. Competing for a job as a senior executive of a savings and loan? That's where it really kicks in.

Not to mention the court system

 

[tall73]

What term should we use to preserve the comfort of white people, but still speak of this phenomenon?

I already mentioned terms such as discrimination etc. which are factual terms. White privilege is applying a label to all whites, many of whom are not privileged.

I didn't say all. Are you contending that LeBron James is the typical black parent?

You said whites and blacks without qualification. That is the problem with the term white privilege, it is a generalization.

Yes. Are you contendin that blacks typically get the same start white people typically get?

No. I am contending that people are individuals, not entire races.

So when you use the term white privilege, what do you want to convey? What is your purpose for conveying it? What do you want to accomplish by discussing it?

 

[variant]

It's interesting to claim that there is no such thing as a white privlage when there are so many people alive that remember a time when black people were openly oppressed.

White privlage is about us having come from a group of people who weren't purposefully impoverished not too long ago, and still having to deal with aftereffects of long-term second class citizenship.

Weather you are actually wealthy or not isn't the point.

 

[rturner76]

I already mentioned terms such as discrimination etc. which are factual terms. White privilege is applying a label to all whites, many of whom are not privileged.

If I may jump in here for a second and say on thing about this.......I think there has been a misinterpretation of the term "White Privilege." I can't speak for everyone's application of the term but the way I understand it and the way I think it is meant to be understood, it does not actually mean that all white people have a special privilege or are privileged people who have been placed in a successful position by being born white. The term is used to describe the social prder in the country that allows white males the be the heads of 99% of all Fortune 500 companies for example. In simpler terms As race goes, Whited are the"King of the Hill"

So when you use the term white privilege, what do you want to convey? What is your purpose for conveying it? What do you want to accomplish by discussing it?

I talk about it because I believe the more people are aware of it, the less it will apply. The more white men are aware of this kind of hierarchy, the more they may question their innermost self about their perception of other ethnicities? Even the most well meaning people have their racial bias deep down. That is why it still exists even after all the civil rights laws have been passed and we are so far in the future..

 

[RDKirk]

In the scenario you gave that could happen with any two service people, regardless of race. You may have some reason you remember the shortcomings of one more than the other.

But if it is racially motivated, you don't think the person knows that?

I just said they didn't. This is something that was discerned service-wide, not just my opinion.

 

[TerranceL]

Reading this board one would think that white christians are the most under-priviliged and most repressed class in the US.

That its the most powerful and wealthy group has no effect on socio-economics as there is at least on black friend who has made it. /sarcasm/

Uh, huh. It's not quite that clear cut.

How income varies among U.S. religious groups

Some of the most financially successful religious groups – Jews, Hindus, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians – also are all among the nation’s most educated as well. These rankings, which come from our 2014 Religious Landscape Study, are based on the percentage of people within each religious group who reside in households with a yearly income of $100,000 or more.

About four-in-ten Jews (44%) and roughly a third of Hindus (36%) and Episcopalians (35%) live in households with incomes of at least $100,000. Again, these groups also have high levels of educational attainment. For instance, nearly half of Hindu adults and almost one-third of Jewish adults hold postgraduate degrees. Indeed, in addition to education, other factors, such as age, race and ethnicity also are correlated with both religion and income.

 

[tall73]

If I may jump in here for a second and say on thing about this.......I think there has been a misinterpretation of the term "White Privilege." I can't speak for everyone's application of the term but the way I understand it and the way I think it is meant to be understood, it does not actually mean that all white people have a special privilege or are privileged people who have been placed in a successful position by being born white. The term is used to describe the social prder in the country that allows white males the be the heads of 99% of all Fortune 500 companies for example. In simpler terms As race goes, Whited are the"King of the Hill"

If that is what it is conveying, then I agree, I was not getting that from the term.

I talk about it because I believe the more people are aware of it, the less it will apply. The more white men are aware of this kind of hierarchy, the more they may question their innermost self about their perception of other ethnicities? Even the most well meaning people have their racial bias deep down. That is why it still exists even after all the civil rights laws have been passed and we are so far in the future..

Thank you for clarifying what you see as the point of mentioning it.

I relayed earlier in the thread I can see in formal process (hiring, housing, etc.) it makes sense to take steps to eliminate bias.

How do you see this playing out in every day social interactions?

 

[tall73]

I just said they didn't. This is something that was discerned service-wide, not just my opinion.

It sounded like your example applied to more than just the category of race. But if that is what they found, I won't argue it. Apparently I just know more overt racists.

So when they found this, did it apply all directions, or just one direction? Was the study only on race, or other factors?

 

[mama2one]

"Experts define White privilege as a combination of exclusive standards and opinions that are supported by Whites in a way that continually reinforces social distance between groups on the basis of power, access, advantage, majority status, control, choice, autonomy, authority, possessions, wealth, opportunity, materialistic acquisition, connection, access, preferential treatment, entitlement, and social standing (Hays & Chang, 2003; Manning & Baruth, 2009)."
Vang, C. T. (2010). An educational psychology of methods in multicultural education. New York: Peter Lang. pp. 36 and 37. ISBN 978-1-4331-0790-0.

did anyone even read what what white privilege means that I posted earlier today?

 

[tall73]

did anyone even read what what white privilege means that I posted earlier today?

Yes, but it is not really the clearest statement.

So other than being aware of the impact of systemic racism, what am I supposed to do with that definition?

 

[mama2one]

I never even heard of white priviledge until being on adoption forums and did come to believe it exists, that white people do have an advantage by being the majority
would also venture to say most people have not heard of it and it's difficult to understand exactly what it is and it's impact

tonight a police cruiser came through our neighborhood, I flagged him down and he rolled his window down and stopped to talk with me; we probably talked a good 5 min.

because I am white there was no fear on either side, that's white privilege