If there is no evidence for creation...

[bill'swife]

Of course, by that logic, God also deliberately makes people without faith, in essence, they're damned from the get-go, and its due to the way He made them. I don't think this is a sound argument from your POV...

Wasn't trying to argue....

That's called Pascal's Wager, and wagering successfully is dependent upon betting your soul on the right God (Christian? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhist? You've got one shot, better pick the right horse...). Also, there remains the fact that if you are accept the wager, the correct God has set up a reality where s/he has hidden himself amongst thousands of possible choices. Also also, you haven't yet worked around those who are born and raised with no knowledge of your brand of God at all. There are many for whom the Wager isn't even offered (yielding yet more souls damned from inception by the God that created them, is that the mark of a benevolent God?) Again, not a beneficial POV for ya...

There are good reasons to hold to your faith. These aren't them.

How do you know what is beneficial for me? I'm pretty sure you don't....pascal's wager or whatever it is is not my reason to hold to my faith, Jesus is. I was trying to come at it from a person who doesn't believe in the one and only true God's point of view.

 

[bill'swife]

Not at all. I'm just saying the reason you provided isn't the real reason you believe. There's something else that maybe you haven't identified yet.


That's why I included the link. And if you don't believe in chain letters, then why do you use a "better safe than sorry" philosophy when it comes to God? Seems rather inconsistent to me.

It is what it is.

 

[Vene]

I can't speak for any other atheist, but all I am looking for is empirical evidence.

 

[gaara4158]

It is what it is.

so um... do you not know?

 

[bill'swife]

so um... do you not know?

uhhhh, don't know what?

 

[bill'swife]

I can't speak for any other atheist, but all I am looking for is empirical evidence.

I honestly hope you find it.

 

[mpok1519]

I think he's just saying it takes a very special kind of person to base one's faith upon that very circular logic, and that it might not be a good idea.

You said you believe God saved you from hell; yet, its difficult to imagine you walking around and believing a very wide majority of people are going to hell simply because they don't share the same belief; a belief that is also one in a billion beliefs; yet, some how, one person has picked the 'right' one, when in reality, its simply the right one for that person.

 

[Vene]

If you have any, I'd be thrilled to see it.

 

[gaara4158]

uhhhh, don't know what?

The response to

Not at all. I'm just saying the reason you provided isn't the real reason you believe. There's something else that maybe you haven't identified yet.


That's why I included the link. And if you don't believe in chain letters, then why do you use a "better safe than sorry" philosophy when it comes to God? Seems rather inconsistent to me.

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you attain this faith when there are no facts supporting it?

Through This ---

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[thaumaturgy]

How do you know what is beneficial for me? I'm pretty sure you don't....pascal's wager or whatever it is

Well, you should know it by its name. I am sure you picked it up from a Church newsletter or from a particularly inspiring sermon, or who knows...perhaps you came up with it all by yourself.

But the fascinating thing about religion is that a lot of these questions are not suprisingly new nor are they fresh. Pascal's wager is a simple game theory concept and, as has been pointed out already, suffers from some questionable logic.

But further, I am always fascinated by Believers who stumble past what I think is the obvious theological flaw in the Wager. So do you honestly believe that God would grant you salvation if you simply 'forced yourself to believe' for the expedient of avoiding some punishment?

I thought the whole key was to choose to love God with all your heart. I thought that was what God wanted, not just "mouthing the words" of belief.

To my knowledge all you have to do is believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your personal savior. Does that mean that all one has to do is force themselves to believe that which they don't believe in because to disbelieve risks punishment?

is not my reason to hold to my faith, Jesus is.

And that is great for you. I used to force myself to believe, but then I began to realize I was doing too much "forcing" and not enough actual believing and when I looked for reason to believe I found virtually nothing.

The "punishment-of-hell" angle is, in my humble opinion, the most vile route to belief. I can't imagine a more duplicitous and "wrong" concept to bring someone to belief in a being. If the concept has to have an active, and by some suggestions, vicious and unbalanced punishment to push people toward itself, then I have to wonder about the game that being is playing. I can test if gravity is real without jumping off a building.

No offense, I know your conception of God is not vicious or vituperative, but when one offers on the table a "really good deal; believe or be punished forever", well I have difficulty seeing it otherwise.

I was trying to come at it from a person who doesn't believe in the one and only true God's point of view.

Perhaps if you were to learn about things like Pascal's Wager and the mass of theology that many of us atheists have spent years obsessing over, you might have a better angle to "come at" unbelief. It can't hurt to learn more philosophy and theology, God knows we atheists usually have spent more time learning philosophy and theology than many believers we meet. Why not meet us half-way?

We love to talk religion.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thaumaturgy, she's not the one that brought up Paschal's Wager. In fact, I got the impression she doesn't even know what Paschal's Wager is.

 

[mpok1519]

but the Bible isn't a hundred percent non-fiction; it has poetry, stories, and myths that are supposed to reflect a lesson of morality upon it's readers rather than giving them a history lesson.

people need to stop worshipping the Bible as if it WAS God.

 

[bill'swife]

Well, you should know it by its name. I am sure you picked it up from a Church newsletter or from a particularly inspiring sermon, or who knows...perhaps you came up with it all by yourself.

But the fascinating thing about religion is that a lot of these questions are not suprisingly new nor are they fresh. Pascal's wager is a simple game theory concept and, as has been pointed out already, suffers from some questionable logic.

But further, I am always fascinated by Believers who stumble past what I think is the obvious theological flaw in the Wager. So do you honestly believe that God would grant you salvation if you simply 'forced yourself to believe' for the expedient of avoiding some punishment?

I thought the whole key was to choose to love God with all your heart. I thought that was what God wanted, not just "mouthing the words" of belief.

To my knowledge all you have to do is believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your personal savior. Does that mean that all one has to do is force themselves to believe that which they don't believe in because to disbelieve risks punishment?



And that is great for you. I used to force myself to believe, but then I began to realize I was doing too much "forcing" and not enough actual believing and when I looked for reason to believe I found virtually nothing.

The "punishment-of-hell" angle is, in my humble opinion, the most vile route to belief. I can't imagine a more duplicitous and "wrong" concept to bring someone to belief in a being. If the concept has to have an active, and by some suggestions, vicious and unbalanced punishment to push people toward itself, then I have to wonder about the game that being is playing. I can test if gravity is real without jumping off a building.

No offense, I know your conception of God is not vicious or vituperative, but when one offers on the table a "really good deal; believe or be punished forever", well I have difficulty seeing it otherwise.



Perhaps if you were to learn about things like Pascal's Wager and the mass of theology that many of us atheists have spent years obsessing over, you might have a better angle to "come at" unbelief. It can't hurt to learn more philosophy and theology, God knows we atheists usually have spent more time learning philosophy and theology than many believers we meet. Why not meet us half-way?

We love to talk religion.

I don't care about paschal's wager and you are sure of nothing. Nobody forced me to believe anything. God doesn't force us to do anything. I didn't accept Christ to avoid eternal punishment but is is definitely one of the many benefits of salvation!!! And I am sorry if you don't like hearing about Hell...it is real and I'm not gonna tiptoe around it. No offence, I know you don't think there is a Hell but I guess I wouldn't wanna be reminded about it either if I thought I was goin' there.

peace and blessings

 

[Danyc]

God doesn't force us to do anything.

God: Ye shall have two choices. One shall be that ye shall have belief in the LORD with minimal evidence, and ye shall rest with the LORD for eternity in heaven. The second shall be that you may not believe in THE LORD. I, the LORD, shall not force you to choose to believe in the LORD.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, you'll go to hell, a burning fiery pit where you will suffer the agony of having your body engulfed in flames for all of eternity if you don't. I mean, I'm not forcing anybody....just keep that in the back of your mind....

Again, no force here...

 

[bill'swife]

God: Ye shall have two choices. One shall be that ye shall have belief in the LORD with minimal evidence, and ye shall rest with the LORD for eternity in heaven. The second shall be that you may not believe in THE LORD. I, the LORD, shall not force you to choose to believe in the LORD.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, you'll go to hell, a burning fiery pit where you will suffer the agony of having your body engulfed in flames for all of eternity if you don't. I mean, I'm not forcing anybody....just keep that in the back of your mind....

Again, no force here...

nm

 

[Danyc]

QFT

Tell me this woman is kidding

 

[bill'swife]

Tell me this woman is kidding

most definitely...more like satire.

 

[Danyc]

most definitely...more like satire.

Then I suggest you be serious and answer the problem.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

God: Ye shall have two choices. One shall be that ye shall have belief in the LORD with minimal evidence, and ye shall rest with the LORD for eternity in heaven. The second shall be that you may not believe in THE LORD. I, the LORD, shall not force you to choose to believe in the LORD.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, you'll go to hell, a burning fiery pit where you will suffer the agony of having your body engulfed in flames for all of eternity if you don't. I mean, I'm not forcing anybody....just keep that in the back of your mind....

Again, no force here...

In a way it is sad that they replaced the Apocalypse of Peter (IIRC) with Revelation as the last book in the modern Bible. It put an end to the hell problem, not making it worse as Revelation did.