If there is no evidence for creation...

gaara4158

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Well, those are more like incentives, but I guess that's all there's left when there's no evidence.
Well, I was sure AV or at least LLJ would come in and give their two cents. Guess they're stumped, and they're busy turning in their choir robes.
 
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Shicoco

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Are you really going to use this weak argument?

If the Lord showed himself, there'd be no need for his planned judgements...because everyone would believe in him.

Surely you would believe in Him if he showed himself to you?

Please take note that billions and billions, now, and past, have believed in God and the Christ. There must be some reason why we believe in it, no?

You know, every history book that I've seen mentions the life of Jesus? That's evidence. No, it's not proof, you're right. But there's no proof for your beliefs, either...such as evolution.

It's really easy to believe in something with scientific evidence lol. Just because science doesn't back it up doesn't mean it's not real. Ever heard of Polonium-218 Halos in primordial granite?

I have hereby come to this conclusion: Evolution and other scientific-based views on the origins of the world and life have MORE EVIDENCE supporting them, but also have MORE EVIDENCE refuting them. Such as irreducibly complexity in microbiology.

Creationism has LITTLE EVIDENCE supporting it, but EVEN LESS EVIDENCE that goes against it.

How does that sound for you?

And, come on, billions and billions of people. Either we're all crazy or we're just seeing things. You're pick.

The chance that all of us Christians are wrong is far less probable than the chance that life was formed by chance :D
 
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Tomk80

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Are you really going to use this weak argument?

If the Lord showed himself, there'd be no need for his planned judgements...because everyone would believe in him.
That would be the honest course, now wouldn't it? If you expect people to believe you exist, as God does according to many Christians, the honest thing to do is provide evidence that you do exist.

Surely you would believe in Him if he showed himself to you?
Yup.

Please take note that billions and billions, now, and past, have believed in God and the Christ. There must be some reason why we believe in it, no?
Doesn't mean that reason has to be valid.

You know, every history book that I've seen mentions the life of Jesus?
It does? I've seen quite a lot, I'd say in many history books he makes no appearance.
That's evidence. No, it's not proof, you're right. But there's no proof for your beliefs, either...such as evolution.
No, that's not evidence. Evidence would be a contemporary written source, which is missing. Doesn't mean Jesus has not existed, but it definitely is not such a set case as many Christians want us to believe.

It's really easy to believe in something with scientific evidence lol. Just because science doesn't back it up doesn't mean it's not real. Ever heard of Polonium-218 Halos in primordial granite?
What about them?

I have hereby come to this conclusion: Evolution and other scientific-based views on the origins of the world and life have MORE EVIDENCE supporting them, but also have MORE EVIDENCE refuting them. Such as irreducibly complexity in microbiology.
IC is, to put it lightly, nonsense. Behe has proposed it in a number of forms which either cannot be tested, or have been falsified already. His larger claim is that none of the parts of IC systems can work independently. Yet many independent uses of different IC systems (according to him) have indeed got a use. On the other end, he claims that to refute IC, we need to give a mutation by mutation pathway. This is clearly undoable, for many obvious reasons. Science advances through reasonably achievable evidence, not through untestability. Behe's proposal cannot be tested and hence, is not evidence.

That something has more evidence supporting it does not mean it also has more evidence refuting it. The theory of evolution is amongst one of those theories that has lots of supporting evidence and virtually no refuting evidence.

Creationism has LITTLE EVIDENCE supporting it, but EVEN LESS EVIDENCE that goes against it.
What do you mean when you say creationism. Do you mean young earth creationism with a global flood? If so, much of the evidence supporting evolution (ie, lots) is also directly a refution of creationism (ie, lots of refuting evidence).

How does that sound for you?
Without wanting to insult you, like you should start studying what you are talking about.
And, come on, billions and billions of people. Either we're all crazy or we're just seeing things. You're pick.
Okay, you're all ignorant.
The chance that all of us Christians are wrong is far less probable than the chance that life was formed by chance :D
Uh, no it isn't. Ignorance is pretty rampant throughout human culture. And our knowledge in general is still not complete, if it will ever be. So the chances of us being wrong, and creationists being wrong in particular, approach 1. Given that abiogenesis would have occurred through chemical reactions, and chemical reactions occur whenever the correct conditions are present, I'd estimate that chance at even higher.

I'd say you got it backwards. The chance of all creationists being wrong is probably 1, the chance of all Christians being wrong probably close to 1. I'd say the chance of life arising spontaneously through natural processes is as high as the chance of Creationists being wrong.
 
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Pwnzerfaust

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Are you really going to use this weak argument?

What weak argument?

If the Lord showed himself, there'd be no need for his planned judgements...because everyone would believe in him.

Pretty much, yeah. But why does he want to "judge" people? Is he a sadist?

Surely you would believe in Him if he showed himself to you?

Naturally, if I was absolutely sure it was god.

Please take note that billions and billions, now, and past, have believed in God and the Christ. There must be some reason why we believe in it, no?

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. Just because many people believe does not necessarily make it so.

You know, every history book that I've seen mentions the life of Jesus? That's evidence. No, it's not proof, you're right. But there's no proof for your beliefs, either...such as evolution.

Sure, of course he's mentioned. But his existence does not mean he was the son of your god. And of course there's no proof for evolution. Proofs are the realm of math and alcohol. But evolution is supported by mountains of evidence.

It's really easy to believe in something with scientific evidence lol. Just because science doesn't back it up doesn't mean it's not real.

Naturally, but if there is no evidence, there is no reason to believe something.

Ever heard of Polonium-218 Halos in primordial granite?

I've heard them mentioned. I'll take a look into what they are.

I have hereby come to this conclusion: Evolution and other scientific-based views on the origins of the world and life have MORE EVIDENCE supporting them, but also have MORE EVIDENCE refuting them. Such as irreducibly complexity in microbiology.

Irreducible complexity, eh? Lemme guess, you're gonna say the bacterial flagellar motor.

Creationism has LITTLE EVIDENCE supporting it, but EVEN LESS EVIDENCE that goes against it.

Lol, no. Everything that supports an old earth (geology, astronomy, cosmology, biology, physics) goes against your little theology.

How does that sound for you?

Sounds like a stupid reason to believe anything.

And, come on, billions and billions of people. Either we're all crazy or we're just seeing things. You're pick.

Again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. Simply because many people believe something does not make it true.

The chance that all of us Christians are wrong is far less probable than the chance that life was formed by chance :D

I'll throw my lot in with science, thanks.
 
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gaara4158

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Are you really going to use this weak argument?
Oh. I was under the impression that a lack of evidence is a good argument against something, not a weak argument.

If the Lord showed himself, there'd be no need for his planned judgements...because everyone would believe in him.
And we can't have that, can we? No, that'd be far to straightforward an honest. Instead, we have to be intellectually dishonest to ourselves and to others in order to believe.

Surely you would believe in Him if he showed himself to you?
Absolutely. Which is why, since he hasn't, I don't.

Please take note that billions and billions, now, and past, have believed in God and the Christ. There must be some reason why we believe in it, no?
Same reason they believed Jim Jones, Buddha, Mithra, Apollo, etc.

You know, every history book that I've seen mentions the life of Jesus? That's evidence. No, it's not proof, you're right. But there's no proof for your beliefs, either...such as evolution.
I've seen quite a few that don't. And even if they did, it would only indicate that there was a revolutionary named Jesus at one point. Books that mention him often also mention Buddha and Vishnu.
And I like how you assume I do indeed believe in evolution. Atheism does not equal evolutionism.

It's really easy to believe in something with scientific evidence lol. Just because science doesn't back it up doesn't mean it's not real. Ever heard of Polonium-218 Halos in primordial granite?
Lack of scientific backing certainly doesn't help. Would you take a pill that people just claimed would cure sickness, but had no endorsement from the medical community?
And yes, i have heard of those halos, and I have a mountain of research that says they don't help your case.

I have hereby come to this conclusion: Evolution and other scientific-based views on the origins of the world and life have MORE EVIDENCE supporting them, but also have MORE EVIDENCE refuting them. Such as irreducibly complexity in microbiology.
Why are you bringing evolution into this? Even if evolution is completely disproven (that'll be the day), creationism still won't gain any ground.

Creationism has LITTLE EVIDENCE supporting it, but EVEN LESS EVIDENCE that goes against it.
Like Tom said, what kind of creationism would you be referring to? And what evidence would you be referring to? There is none.

And, come on, billions and billions of people. Either we're all crazy or we're just seeing things. You're pick.
False dilemma. You forgot the lemmings dilemma.
If you're really going to pull that card, here:

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The chance that all of us Christians are wrong is far less probable than the chance that life was formed by chance :D
You're 18 and still believe this? Shame on you.
 
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Blayz

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If the Lord showed himself, there'd be no need for his planned judgements...because everyone would believe in him.


And yet after the 1000 years of millenial reign the devil is loosed again for a short time so that those who have lived under god's rule can have a chance to reject him. So clearly not everyone would believe.

If you are going to make fairytale fundy "arguments", try to match them with scripture please.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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...then why should we believe it? Because the Bible said so? That begs the question, why should we believe the Bible?

It is more like "Our pastor said so." or "The guy on the radio/video/seminar said so."

Creationism in its current form is more like a cult of personality, with a helping of vanity and ignorance thrown in, than any thing else.

Just a quick look at how the supporters of creationism act and you will see that it has little if anything to do with anything that is actually written in the Bible.

As far as the over all question "Why do theists believe in something like a concept of a god?"

It's mainly because we want to, it pleases us. Kind of the same reason I like purple, it pleases me. Or why I like dark chocolate, or coffee, or toast in the morning, or many other things.
 
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And, come on, billions and billions of people. Either we're all crazy or we're just seeing things. You're pick.

And what about the billions and billions of Muslims who think Islam is the way,
or the billions and billions of Hindus or Jews or Shinto, the religions just go on and on,
and don't you think it's really sad that billions and billions have never even heard of Jesus Christ?
they don't even know he existed, never heard of the cross, the resurrection, nothing,
they have not rejected Jesus, they have just never heard of him.

You were indoctrinated into just one of those religions, the one your folks believed in,
think about it for a second, that was very convenient don't you think?
that you just happened to be born in the right country to the right people,
and now you have the one true religion, the one and only Christianity,
you would need to be pretty stupid to believe you were that lucky, don't you think?

One day when you're older, and if you're lucky, you will come to your senses.
 
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biggles53

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Are you really going to use this weak argument?

If the Lord showed himself, there'd be no need for his planned judgements...because everyone would believe in him.

Surely you would believe in Him if he showed himself to you?

Definitely! Please point him out to me.......

Please take note that billions and billions, now, and past, have believed in God and the Christ. There must be some reason why we believe in it, no?

For the same reason that "billions and billions" used to believe that the earth was flat! The fearful and ignorant can be convinced of anything, as long as you 'shield' them from education.

You know, every history book that I've seen mentions the life of Jesus? That's evidence.

No, that's hearsay, which is not evidence.

No, it's not proof, you're right. But there's no proof for your beliefs, either...such as evolution.

You understand nothing about the role of science, do you...?

It's really easy to believe in something with scientific evidence lol. Just because science doesn't back it up doesn't mean it's not real. Ever heard of Polonium-218 Halos in primordial granite?

No belief or faith required in science - just the observation and analysis of EVIDENCE.

I have hereby come to this conclusion: Evolution and other scientific-based views on the origins of the world and life

Biology 101 - FAILING GRADE! Evolutionary theory has NOTHING to do with the "origins of the world and life"

have MORE EVIDENCE supporting them, but also have MORE EVIDENCE refuting them. Such as irreducibly complexity in microbiology.

Oh dera, a certain little creationist hasn't done their homework, have they? Not only has Behe's rubbish been thoroughly trashed subsequent to his stating it, it was actually trashed by Muller before Behe was even born! Ever heard of the 'Mullerian Two Step'? No, you wouldn't would you, because if you had, you wouldn't risk the embarassment of raising it here!

Creationism has LITTLE EVIDENCE supporting it, but EVEN LESS EVIDENCE that goes against it.

Slight correction. Creationism has NO evidence supporting it - if you have some, present it!

How does that sound for you?

Boringly familiar....

And, come on, billions and billions of people. Either we're all crazy or we're just seeing things. You're pick.

Of the "billions and billions" of believers on the planet, there is a wide disparity of views as to how we came to be here. They can't ALL be right. So some MUST be crazy! YOU pick........

The chance that all of us Christians are wrong is far less probable than the chance that life was formed by chance :D

The chance that you Christians are wrong is equal to the chance that the Muslims are wrong, is equal to the chance that the Hindus are wrong, is equal to......I think you see where it's going.
 
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mpok1519

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Are you really going to use this weak argument?

Its a sound and logical argument.

You know, every history book that I've seen mentions the life of Jesus? That's evidence.

Thats evidence of one man's existence; not evidence of creationism.

It's really easy to believe in something with scientific evidence lol. Just because science doesn't back it up doesn't mean it's not real. Ever heard of Polonium-218 Halos in primordial granite?

There are reasons for it, none of them are magical or mysterious.

I have hereby come to this conclusion: Evolution and other scientific-based views on the origins of the world and life have MORE EVIDENCE supporting them, but also have MORE EVIDENCE refuting them. Such as irreducibly complexity in microbiology.

You're free to conclude, whatever; yet it doesn't mean its a very wise or sound decision, based upon the fact that there is very little evidence refuting evolution. Evolution is a fact, accept it. =)

Creationism has LITTLE EVIDENCE supporting it, but EVEN LESS EVIDENCE that goes against it.

Actually, theres plenty of evidence refuting creationism, and absolutely no evidence supporting it. I don't know what professors from what college are teaching you these ideas you have, but I am probably not the first to tell you that a reevaluation of your ideas is in order.

And, come on, billions and billions of people. Either we're all crazy or we're just seeing things. You're pick.

Not every Christian is a Bible literalist; many of us know the symbology, similies, and metaphors used are for teaching a lesson about morality rather than the history of the earth. Mel Brooks' "History of the Earth" is a good place to start though. =P

The chance that all of us Christians are wrong is far less probable than the chance that life was formed by chance :D


Actually, nothing is life is a 'chance'. Everything happens for a specific, and logical reasons, even if that reason is very remote and improbable.

Evolution is a fact; people need to accept it and then reevaluate their faith, and how they can better the world through truth and reason rather than beating this dead horse called scriptural literalism.
 
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Shicoco

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You fail to understand something. There is a lack of evidence that supports my beliefs. There is also a lack of evidence that disproves it now isn't there? That means evolution isn't any more powerful, because as there is evidence to support it, there is a lot that disproves it. Let me capitalize on this. THE AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE SUPPORTING CREATIONISM IS ABOUT THE SAME AS THE AMOUNT THAT GOES AGAINST IT. AND AS TO THE LOAD OF EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS EVOLUTION, THERE IS EVEN MORE AGAINST IT. If you would like to see it, please ask :D

To the first person who replied: God doesn't want us to just believe in him...as we can't, because he hasn't shown himself. If you knew the Bible, you'd know he wants us to have Faith.

"Please take note that billions and billions, now, and past, have believed in God and the Christ. There must be some reason why we believe in it, no?"
Sorry. This statement wasn't meant to be a proof. It was meant to show that Christianity has been around a while, so please don't assume that billions of humans are retarded. I'd like a little more respect than that, even if you don't believe.

I don't assume that you believe in evolution. But if you will look at the name of this forum lol....If I'm going to debate, I'll need something to debate against. Evolution is what that's going to be.

10 to the power of 39982 to 1. That's the odds of Life occurring by chance. Scientists with virtually unlimited resources cannot create life....

I have noticed something. People on these kinds of forums will go around saying that there is no evidence that supports Creationism, and lots that supports Evolution. Well, there is no evidence that goes against Creationism, and plenty the goes against Evolution.

It's funny, one person says that there is no proof of God, and then I say that there is no proof for Evolution (I guess that's why it's just a theory), but what I get is
You understand nothing about the role of science, do you...?


People like to bash Christianity...and what usually ends up happenning is I give evidence against Evolution...totally backwards from what it should be.

So, from now on, I am not going to try to prove that Evolution is impossible...at least on this thread. I want all of you to back up your arguments against Creationism.
 
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Shicoco

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Evolution is a fact; people need to accept it and then reevaluate their faith....

OK, I actually think (maybe I'm wrong) that some of the athiests will disagree with this statement, because IT IS COMPLETELY WRONG.

Natural Selection is more of a law. Evolution is a weak theory.
 
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Tomk80

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OK, I actually think (maybe I'm wrong) that some of the athiests will disagree with this statement, because IT IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
It actually is not. The fact of evolution is very simply stated as "allele frequencies in a population change over time".

Natural Selection is more of a law.
You might call it such. Perhaps a better description would be that natural selection is an observed process, that provides one of the mechanisms for the fact of evolution. The theory of evolution is based on a number of mechanisms to explain the fact of evolution, one of which is natural selection.

Important learning point:
Evolution is both a fact and a theory. The fact of evolution describes what happens in nature. The theory of evolution explains the mechanisms behind the fact of evolution.

Evolution is a weak theory.
Actual biologists disagree with you.
 
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mpok1519

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OK, I actually think (maybe I'm wrong) that some of the athiests will disagree with this statement, because IT IS COMPLETELY WRONG.

Natural Selection is more of a law. Evolution is a weak theory.

Really? Evolution is a pretty strong theory according to the biology professors I've come across.
 
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Shicoco

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Ok, first off, I'm am not going to be able to totally disprove Evolution....If I did that, I'd be famous...because I would have just put down a popular theory down the drain lol. I don't think that's going to happen by myself. But here ya go, reply back when you're done with the following:

1. Irreducible Complexity in microbiological processes.

2. Polonium-218 Halos in primordial granite

3. Astronomical probabilities calculated as necessary for the simplest proteins to form (not enough time).

4. Fossil Record

5. Existence of information more complicated than a computer language encoded in DNA requires an author.

6. Genetics, i.e. losses always involved in mutations, fatality rate when mutations occur.

7. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
 
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