IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9?

[Clare73]

Moreover we are right back at square one: death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, not from Adam until now, and therefore it doesn't speak of physical death.

Death came to all men (Romans 5:12)--the end of physical life.
Sin reigned in death (Romans 5:21)--the end of physical life.
Slavery to sin leads to death (Romans 6:16)--the end of physical life.
The wages of sin is death (of Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:13, 18) -
(Romans 6:21-23)--the end of physical life.

And again, the Torah is designed to kill the old man nature, and to guard us from spiritual death until faith has come: that is why Paul says that the Torah is become our tutor or schoolmaster unto Messiah.

No. . .the law became our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ for righteousness because no one can attain rghteousness by law-keeping (Romans 3:20).

That is why he says that death reigned from Adam until Mosheh,

Physical death has reigned since Adam to the present.
It is you who does not understand, because you stand God's progressive revelation--from Adam, to Abraham, to Moses, to the prophets, to Christ, to the apostles of Christ--on its head in your understanding the new according to the old, when the new (all along that progressive line) was given to show the true meaning of the old. Your rejection of the NT "paradigm" for the sake of pre-Christ revelation is contrary to God's purpose of the NT "paradigm" given for the sake of revealing the true meaning of the old.

for the Torah was obviously given through Mosheh, and that is why Paul says in that passage that those under the Torah were hemmed in and shut up by the Torah until faith had come.

No. . .they were shut up by hopeless law-keeping until it was revealed that righteousness is only from God, and only by faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-22), never by law-keeping,
for no one will be declared righteous (justified) by law keeping (Romans 3:20), which fact was first revealed in Abraham's imputed righteousness by faith only (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

The Torah is figured by Paul as something like a protective sheep pen in that passage, (Galatians 3:23).

No. . .the law is figured by Paul (Galatians 4:24-28) as slavery under the Old Covenant (Hagar) who bears children who are to be slaves to the law.
And grace is figured by Paul as faith's freedom from slavery to the law under the New Covenant (Sarah) who bore the son of promise (Genesis 17:15-19, 21), who fathered the seed of promise.

Erroneous doctrine hides the truth from the eyes of the reader: set aside the paradigm filter and allow yourself to be taught of Elohim as we are supposed to be, (John 6:45, Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:34, John 7:16-17).

However, it is because you do set aside that "paradigm filter" (the NT) that you do not understand God's purpose and plan in Jesus Christ as revealed in that "paradigm" (NT) and, therefore, cannot be taught of God's new covenant revelation as you are supposed to be, because you reject God's own NT revelation as authoritative to you.

When we sin, we die, and that is not physical but spiritual,

Nope. . .we are born spiritually dead; i.e., without eternal life which Adam lost for us in his own spiritual death.
We must be (spiritually) born again of the Holy Spirit, and resurrected to (spiritual) eternal life in faith, to even see the spiritual kingdom of God on earth (John 3:3-7), a kingdom not of this world (John 18:36) but of the spiritual world, invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21) the hearts of those where he reigns and rules.

and therefore death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, not from Adam until Messiah or (from Adam until now: for Paul is speaking of spiritual death, just as in passages such as Ephesians 2:1-5.

Nope. . .in light of the NT (the light of which "paradigm" you reject), Paul is speaking of physical death, which is due to covenantal law breaking (as was Adam's physical death), when between Adam and Moses there was no covenant in force requiring the death penalty for law breaking, but they all physiclly died any way. . .
all to establish that all died, even when there was no covenantal law in force requiring death, because of the imputation of Adam's guilt to all those born of Adam (Romans 5:18: "the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men"), just as Christ's righteousness is imputed by faith to all those born of Christ (Romans 5:18-19), just as God's righteousness had been imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). . .
Adam's guilt being imputed to all because we all show our agreement with Adam's sin by our continuing to sin, just as Jesus said the Jews showed their agreement with their forefathers' murder of the prophets by their continuing to try to murder him, the Prophet who as to come of Deuteronomy 18:18 and, therefore, his generation was guilty of all the blood of the prophets shed by their forefathers from the beginning of the world (Luke 11:48-51).

The Father does not physically kill His own creation for sinning,

How many in the world have escaped the wages of sin which is death (Romans 6:23)?

but is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish.

The "perish" referred to here is eternal death, not physical death.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I believe Paul and yourself are mistaken. Had there not been people over the generations who were in covenant with God, or walking with God, there would not be a covenant for Jesus to confirm nor a covenant that the remnant was of.

And at Pentecost weren't they preaching to a crowd who were also attending that feast or High day? The old covenant was made with 70 elders on behalf of all of Israel, so the new covenant made with them at the Passover meal was on behalf of All of Israel as prophesied by Jeremiah. I do not believe a word of what you quote; I use the OT as authority and Jesus as teacher or Rabbi.

Well, at least you seem to admit that @Clare73 and Paul agree! It's a shame you set yourself as a higher authority than scripture. I hope you don't find an OT writer to disagree with.

 

[Clare73]

I am not even sure what you mean by this.

1) The operative word in my argument following is "word," not "death"

You see death, and believe what you will,
but I have admonishments, instructions, and teachings: Deuteronomy 30:15-20, John 8:51.

Teachings:
John 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
And that word is, "Everyone who believes in the Son has eternal life." (John 3:15)
"Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned." (John 3:18)
And the penalty of physical death for sin is not by execution, it is by nature, just as it was with Adam's penalty of death for sin--he died 930 years later.

2) "See death". . ."taste death". . .words.

"Adam died". . ."Abel died". . ."Abraham died". . ."Moses died". . .events,
demonstrating which kind of death is under discussion in Romans 5:12-14.

 

[daq]

Death came to all men (Romans 5:12)--the end of physical life

Read the passage with comprehension: death passed upon all men because all sinned. You are claiming that the penalty for sin is physical death, and therefore do not understand the scripture, having concocted your own interpretation of what Paul means here. That is why I said at the start that Adam lived 930 years: Elohim doesn't physically kill His own creation for sinning.

This is what happens when you read the scripture according to the flesh and imagine yourself to be a lawyer, (teacher of the Law).

 

[daq]

1) "See death". . ."taste death". . .words.

"Adam died". . ."Abel died". . ."Abraham died". . ."Moses died". . .events,
demonstrating which kind of death is under discussion in Romans 5:12-14.

2) The operative word in my argument following is "word," not "death"

"demonstrating which kind of death is under discussion in Romans 5:12-14."

Because you say so? I don't believe you: why would I forsake the Logos of Elohim for your decrees?

 

[daq]

1) "See death". . ."taste death". . .words.
"Adam died". . ."Abel died". . ."Abraham died". . ."Moses died". . .events,
demonstrating which kind of death is under discussion in Romans 5:12-14.

Moreover, is this not the same thing they say in John 8:51-52 when they accuse the Master of having a demon?

John 8:51-52 KJV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Two words: THIN ICE.

 

[Clare73]

"demonstrating which kind of death is under discussion in Romans 5:12-14."

Because you say so?

Because the NT text states such, that paradigm which you reject.

I don't believe you: why would I forsake the Logos of Elohim for your decrees?

Of course you don't. . .you reject (the paradigm of) the NT from which it comes.

 

[daq]

Of course you don't. . .you reject (the paradigm of) the NT from which it comes.

False. I neither reject the NT nor the paradigm from which it comes which is the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts. It is your own paradigm with which I do not agree: and that is precisely because I believe all things written in the Torah, Prophets, Writings, Gospel accounts, and indeed the Apostolic Letters, Epistles, and Writings.

 

[Clare73]

Moreover, is this not the same thing they say in John 8:51-52 when they accuse the Master of having a demon?

Not at all.

John 8:51-52 KJV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Two words: THIN ICE.

John 8:51-52 is the same as
John 11:25-26 - "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live,
even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die."

 

[Clare73]

False. I neither reject the NT nor the paradigm from which it comes which is the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts. It is your own paradigm with which I do not agree: and that is precisely because I believe all things written in the Torah, Prophets, Writings, Gospel accounts, and indeed the Apostolic Letters, Epistles, and Writings.

Good for you!

 

[Clare73]

Read the passage with comprehension: death passed upon all men because all sinned. You are claiming that the penalty for sin is physical death, and therefore do not understand the scripture, having concocted your own interpretation of what Paul means here. That is why I said at the start that Adam lived 930 years: Elohim doesn't physically kill His own creation for sinning.

This is what happens when you read the scripture according to the flesh and imagine yourself to be a lawyer, (teacher of the Law).

Previously addressed. . .

 

[daq]

John 8:51-52 is the same as John 11:25-26:
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die."

Luke 20:34-38 TS2009
34 And יהושע answering, said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35 but those who are counted worthy of attaining that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage,
36 for neither is it possible for them to die any more, because they are like messengers and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection.
37 “But that the dead are raised, even Mosheh showed at the bush when he called יהוה ‘the Elohim of Aḇraham, and the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ.’ Exo 3:6.
38 “Now He is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him.”

 

[Clare73]

Luke 20:34-38 TS2009
34 And יהושע answering, said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35 but those who are counted worthy of attaining that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage,
36 for neither is it possible for them to die any more, because they are like messengers and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection.

37 “But that the dead are raised, even Mosheh showed at the bush when he called יהוה ‘the Elohim of Aḇraham, and the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ.’ Exo 3:6.
38 “Now He is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Yes, the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are immortal.

 

[Cribstyl]

We know that Paul wrote the book of ROMANS ,and in Rom 13:9 he writes , For this , thou shall not commit Adultery .

#2 Thou shall not kill .

#3 thou shall not bear false witness ,

#4 Thou shall not Covet .

Notice what Paul let OUT ?

I believe the Law , what bis called the OLD COVENANT was set aside as Paul wrote in 2 Cor 3:13 .

And nowhere does Paul say we are in the NEW COVENANT !!

dan p

Greetings Dan P and fellow members.
You're presenting Rom 13 as if Paul is saying we're under the law because he mentions specific commandments in the law. Your point disappears if Paul already wrote this in Romans.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

In Rom 13 Paul is actually teaching us, the law of the new covenant is; to love God and to love your neighbor. Keeping those 2 commandments fulfills the law. Context matters Dan.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

So, Paul is teaching clearly that love fulfills all the commandments in the law.
Showing that commandments are quoted is stunt some people use to undermine the truth, that we're not under the law of the old covenant. The blood on the cross ratified the New Covenant (you should know that). Christ died to fulfill the Old Covenant.

 

[Cribstyl]

You answered your own question in Romans 13:8-10. God's 10 commandments have never been abolished. According to the new covenant scriptures (beside the ones you have already quoted from Romans 13:8-10) the purpose of Gods' law in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of what good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when broken) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) as shown by Paul in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and John in 1 John 3:4 and James in James 2:10-11.

Respectfully sir, you appear to imply error upon error without the proper context.
Where Paul teaches; that the law was given for knowledge of sin, He also taught that: From now on, righteousness will be without the law.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


Also, by Paul saying (Rom3:21) "being witnessed by the law and the prophet " Paul was referencing prophesies from the books of the law (Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; )
And also the prophets. (Jer 31:31-34)

The other scriptures you quote seems misleading. Why? Rom 3:20 is saying: Doing what the law says (deeds) will not justify a man because the law is simply a list of what sins are.

According to the scriptures, there is a difference between Gods' law (the 10 commandments) and the laws of Moses for remission of sins (the Sanctuary laws, the Priesthood, the laws of meat and drink offerings and animal sacrifice for blood atonement for sin) which are were all shadow laws of things to come pointing to Gods' true sacrifice for the sins of the world in Christ *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10 and the role of Jesus under the new covenant as our great high priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22).

I don't see any connection to your comments and these scriptures.

This is where the confusion is and is why the scripture calls Gods' law the 10 commandments which was spoken and written with the finger of God alone and the law of Moses the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7). Many Church's teach the false teachings of lawlessness (without law) which is an unbiblical false teaching unsupported by the scriptures. God is calling us all to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions and return to His Word. (John 4:23-24; Revelation 18:1-5).

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

We agree about confusion. Scriptures say that the ten commandments are the covenant. Who teaches that the New Covenant does not have at least 2 commandments? Then maybe you're misrepresenting what most churches believe.

 

[sparow]

That's a seriously high mountain to conquer.
And which gives us no basis for discussion, for all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), authoritative for the church and, therefore, to be received.

I also note that, if required to make a choice regarding who has it right, you or Paul, my money is on Paul.

I forget what we we talking about, but regarding what you picked up on; that all scripture is God-breathed is Paul's teaching , I do not believe it is true.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I forget what we we talking about, but regarding what you picked up on; that all scripture is God-breathed is Paul's teaching , I do not believe it is true.

I would expect, then, that you depend on YOUR faith, YOUR ability to believe, or perhaps even to be a good enough person, to attain salvation. If Scripture is not your anchor, then you have no sure reference for anything, but your own inconsistent self. Not just your life, but your eternity hinges on YOU.

 

[Clare73]

I forget what we we talking about, but regarding what you picked up on; that all scripture is God-breathed is Paul's teaching , I do not believe it is true.

And I definitely

1) do not believe you over the man who was:

a) knocked off his horse when he was called by Jesus Christ (Acts 9:3-9),
b) received his doctrine from Jesus Christ personally (Galatians 1:11-12), and who was
c) caught up to the third heaven and heard inexpressible things which man is not permitted to speak
(2 Corinthians 12:1-8); that

2) leaving us with no basis for discussion when you do not believe the NT word of God written.

 

[sparow]

I would expect, then, that you depend on YOUR faith, YOUR ability to believe, or perhaps even to be a good enough person, to attain salvation. If Scripture is not your anchor, then you have no sure reference for anything, but your own inconsistent self. Not just your life, but your eternity hinges on YOU.

Thank you for your concern. Scripture is not my anchor, the God of Israel is, or Jesus as the corner stone and the twelve apostles; I use the scriptures as food some good some bad or as a box of tools and I believe some of the tools have been placed there by the enemy. The fact that the twelve were not perfect gives me hope.

 

[Cribstyl]

Moreover we are right back at square one: death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, not from Adam until now, and therefore it doesn't speak of physical death.

And again, the Torah is designed to kill the old man nature, and to guard us from spiritual death until faith has come: that is why Paul says that the Torah is become our tutor or schoolmaster unto Messiah. That is why he says that death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, for the Torah was obviously given through Mosheh, and that is why Paul says in that passage that those under the Torah were hemmed in and shut up by the Torah until faith had come.

The Torah is figured by Paul as something like a protective sheep pen in that passage, (Galatians 3:23). Erroneous doctrine hides the truth from the eyes of the reader: set aside the paradigm filter and allow yourself to be taught of Elohim as we are supposed to be, (John 6:45, Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:34, John 7:16-17).

When we sin, we die, and that is not physical but spiritual, and therefore death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, not from Adam until Messiah or from Adam until now: for Paul is speaking of spiritual death, just as in passages such as Ephesians 2:1-5.

The Father does not physically kill His own creation for sinning, but is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish.

In Rom 5, Paul made it clear, that death reigned for sin, from Adam to Moses, because the law was not given as yet. This death is end of life, not spiritual death. The bible teaches; The soul that sin, it shall die.

Rom 5:12¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.