IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9?

[daq]

Don't know what you are talking about. . .nor what your point is.

Neither "guard" nor "taste of" are in my Greek text.

My text is "keep" (tereo) my word;" i.e., "watch over, preserve, keep, watch,"
it is not "guard" (phulax).
And my text is "behold/see" (theoreo) death;" i.e., "experience, partake of,"
it is not "taste of."

John 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Such legalism and yet you ignore the way equivalent words are used in the Torah.

 

[daq]

Don't know what you are talking about. . .nor what your point is.

Was my post #494 a response to you? Someone else addressed me and I responded accordingly, with scripture references. If you are going to interject yourself then why have you not addressed the other passage I cited?

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 KJV
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deuteronomy 30:14 OG LXX
14 εστιν σου εγγυς το ρημα σφοδρα εν τω στοματι σου και εν τη καρδια σου και εν ταις χερσιν σου αυτο ποιειν

Romans 10:8
8 αλλα τι λεγει εγγυς σου το ρημα εστιν εν τω στοματι σου και εν τη καρδια σου τουτ εστιν το ρημα της πιστεως ο κηρυσσομεν

But what does Deuteronomy 30:14 say?

The Rhema-Word is nigh unto you, in your mouth and in your heart: this is the Rhema-Word of the faith which we preach:

So much for the anti-law lawyers and their handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees. Choose to see death if you will: but know that this also is a choice even according to the Torah, (Deuteronomy 30:15, Deuteronomy 30:19).

 

[Clare73]

No, that isn't all that matters. Howbeit tereo specifically means to guard, (properly), by keeping the eye upon, to watch over something, and thus to maintain and-or keep, so I don't see why you would have a problem with the way I rendered it.

Theoreo however is interpreted by the Master himself in the same Gospel account and therefore even this passage by itself is not the only thing that matters because the words therein are expounded elsewhere in the scripture. In the following passage theoreo is employed for two ways of seeing.

John 14:19 KJV
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

The world sees him not, (theoreo), but his disciples see him, (theoreo). Beware therefore, that the saying not become true of yourself, that seeing you see not, and hearing you hear not.

Matthew 13:13-15 KJV
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

True hearing is not only to hear but to understand. True seeing is not only to see but to perceive with understanding. Therefore, when I said that they did not hear what he said, in John 8:51-52, I meant that they neither understood nor perceived what he meant: and therefore they did not even quote his statement correctly.

Who did not quote correctly? The translators neither understood nor perceived what he meant, or the NT writers did not understand and perceive?

And you know this how?

Like the "alteration" to Luke 22:20 demonstrated the alteration of Hebrews 8:13 from the "renewed law" to the "new covenant?"

 

[Clare73]

Such legalism and yet you ignore the way equivalent words are used in the Torah.

The NT is not the Torah.

And the Torah is to be understood in the light of the NT revelation of the apostles, not the other way around.

NT revelation of the apostles' writings governs the meaning of Scripture, which was explained to them by Jesus (Luke 24:27, Luke 24:45).

 

[Clare73]

Was my post #494 a response to you? Someone else addressed me

Someone else addressed you in regard to my post.

and I responded accordingly, with scripture references. If you are going to interject yourself then why have you not addressed the other passage I cited?

I addressed what was of relevance to my post.

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 KJV
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deuteronomy 30:14 OG LXX
14 εστιν σου εγγυς το ρημα σφοδρα εν τω στοματι σου και εν τη καρδια σου και εν ταις χερσιν σου αυτο ποιειν

Romans 10:8
8 αλλα τι λεγει εγγυς σου το ρημα εστιν εν τω στοματι σου και εν τη καρδια σου τουτ εστιν το ρημα της πιστεως ο κηρυσσομεν

But what does Deuteronomy 30:14 say?

The Rhema-Word is nigh unto you in your mouth and in your heart: this is the Rhema-Word of the faith which we preach:

My point precisely: the Torah is to be understood in the light of the NT.

Paul takes the OT passage about the rhema (the law) and applies it to the NT gospel, "the word of faith"--the main point being the accessibility of the gospel. Righteousness is gained by faith, not by deeds, and is readily available to anyone who will receive it freely from God through Christ.

So much for the anti-law lawyers and their handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees. Choose to see death if you will: but know that this also is a choice even according to the Torah, (Deuteronomy 30:15, Deuteronomy 30:19).

The only relevant issue is if the word of God in the NT Greek manuscript is translated correctly.

And how do you know whether the apostles used the LXX or the Hebrew?
Likewise, the LXX is not without its problems, being done so hastily.

 

[daq]

Who did not quote correctly? The translators neither understood nor perceived what he meant, or the NT writers did not understand and perceive?

And you know this how?

Like the "alteration" to Luke 22:20 demonstrated the alteration of Hebrews 8:13 from the "renewed law" to the "new covenant?"

When and where did I say to you that they did not hear what he said? It is right there in the text: did you yourself not hear what was said? I quoted the passage multiple times.

John 8:51-52 KJV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

John 8:51-52 YLT
51 verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see--to the age.'
52 The Jews, therefore, said to him, 'Now we have known that thou hast a demon; Abraham did die, and the prophets, and thou dost say, If any one may keep my word, he shall not taste of death--to the age!

John 8:51-52 ASV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.
52 The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death.

John 8:51 T/R-BYZ
51 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν εαν τις τον λογον τον εμον τηρηση θανατον ου μη θεωρηση εις τον αιωνα

John 8:51 N/A-W/H
51 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν εαν τις τον εμον λογον τηρηση θανατον ου μη θεωρηση εις τον αιωνα

Amen amen, I say to you, If anyone guards my Logos he will surely not see death, into the age.

And they, like you, did not hear what he said, for they repeat his statement and they repeat it incorrectly, saying that he said, "If anyone guards my Logos he will surely not taste of death, into the age."

 

[daq]

The NT is not the Torah.

And the Torah is to be understood in the light of the NT revelation of the apostles, not the other way around.

NT revelation of the apostles' writings governs the meaning of Scripture, which was explained to them by Jesus (Luke 24:27, Luke 24:45).

More dogmas and decrees that you apply to yourself which do not apply to me: I am free to check every word, sentence, or saying, or anything else found in the LXX, and compare usage there with the Hebrew text and quotes and usage in the N/T, to learn and glean more insight into what the apostolic authors are saying in their writings.

 

[daq]

And how do you know whether the apostles used the LXX or the Hebrew?

They clearly used both but there are more quotes in the N/T that are taken from the LXX than from the Hebrew text. There are even places where the apostolic authors correct the LXX, (which is really helpful, but not until one actually understands why, (The Doctrine)).

 

[Clare73]

John 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

And that word is, "Everyone who believes in the Son has eternal life." (John 3:15)
"Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned." (John 3:18)

And the penalty of physical death for sin is not by execution, it is by nature, just as it was with Adam's penalty of death for sin.

John 8:51-52 KJV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

John 8:51-52 YLT
51 verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see--to the age.'
52 The Jews, therefore, said to him, 'Now we have known that thou hast a demon; Abraham did die, and the prophets, and thou dost say, If any one may keep my word, he shall not taste of death--to the age!

John 8:51-52 ASV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.
52 The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death.

John 8:51 T/R-BYZ
51 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν εαν τις τον λογον τον εμον τηρηση θανατον ου μη θεωρηση εις τον αιωνα

John 8:51 N/A-W/H
51 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν εαν τις τον εμον λογον τηρηση θανατον ου μη θεωρηση εις τον αιωνα

Amen amen, I say to you, If anyone guards my Logos he will surely not see death, into the age.

And they, like you, did not hear what he said, for they repeat his statement and they repeat it incorrectly, saying that he said, "If anyone guards my Logos he will surely not taste of death, into the age."

Contraire. . .it falls to you to demonstrate what I presented was not Jesus' word.

 

[Clare73]

More dogmas and decrees that you apply to yourself which do not apply to me: I am free to check every word, sentence, or saying, or anything else found in the LXX, and compare usage there with the Hebrew text and quotes and usage in the N/T, to learn and glean more insight into what the apostolic authors are saying in their writings.

Not talking about meaning of words, talking about import of doctrine.

 

[sparow]

Well, not quite.
Israel was hardened and cut off the one olive tree of God's people, and Gentiles were grafted in that New covenant (Romans 11:17-25), only a remnant of Israel now enters that New covenant.

Almost. . .Moses was Mediator.
The Levitical priesthood of Aaron was administrator of the law.

Well, Hebrews 7:11-19 reports it a little differently.
The new priesthood of Melchizedek, of which Jesus is the eternal High Priest, means a change to a new law, the former Mosaic law being set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous (Hebrews 7:18), and a better hope (Jesus) and better covenant and law is introduced where, by faith (rather than by law-keeping) we do draw near to God (Hebrews 7:19) in righteousness (imputed; i.e., accounted to us, from Christ, as by faith righteousness was imputed/accounted to Abraham--Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

See 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6.

I believe Paul and yourself are mistaken. Had there not been people over the generations who were in covenant with God, or walking with God, there would not be a covenant for Jesus to confirm nor a covenant that the remnant was of.

And at Pentecost weren't they preaching to a crowd who were also attending that feast or High day? The old covenant was made with 70 elders on behalf of all of Israel, so the new covenant made with them at the Passover meal was on behalf of All of Israel as prophesied by Jeremiah. I do not believe a word of what you quote; I use the OT as authority and Jesus as teacher or Rabbi.

 

[Clare73]

I believe Paul and yourself are mistaken.

That's a seriously high mountain to conquer.
And which gives us no basis for discussion, for all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), authoritative for the church and, therefore, to be received.

I also note that, if required to make a choice regarding who has it right, you or Paul, my money is on Paul.

 

[daq]

Contraire. . .it falls to you to demonstrate what I presented was not Jesus' word.

Here it is one last time.

John 8:51-52 KJV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Every word counts. If you cannot see the difference between seeing and tasting then how will you ever learn that there is a difference in the scripture between seeing death and tasting of death.

 

[Clare73]

John 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
And that word is, "Everyone who believes in the Son has eternal life." (John 3:15)
"Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned." (John 3:18)
And the penalty of physical death for sin is not by execution, it is by nature, just as it was with Adam's penalty of death for sin.
It falls to you to demonstrate what I present is not Jesus' word.

Here it is one last time. John 8:51-52 KJV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Every word counts. If you cannot see the difference between seeing and tasting then how will you ever learn that there is a difference in the scripture between seeing death and tasting of death.

Non responsive to my post. . .

 

[daq]

Non responsive to my post. . .

It is up to you to actually prove that your interpretation is true. You have not done that because you did not hear what is said in the passage I quoted five times now. It has nothing to do with what you claim. To see death and to taste of death are two different things in the N/T apostolic teachings. You are apparently not able to see the difference in what you read. That isn't my fault or my problem.

The whole premise of your assertion is false and this is already proven by the fact that you see death in what you read, physical death, and therefore the veil over your heart and eyes when you read the Torah remains because you do not do what is admonished in the passages already expounded. In short, you go against the admonishment of Mosheh and therefore the Spirit: for you choose to see death rather than life in what you read in the Torah.

These statements concern what Mosheh says he has put before anyone who hears or sees (reads) the Torah, and Paul even quotes the first verse below in Romans 10, saying that this is the word of the faith which he preaches. Moreover there is an admonishment TO SEE in this very passage.

Deuteronomy 30:14-15 KJV
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [Romans 10:8]
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The Torah has set before us life and good, and death and evil, life and death, and blessing and cursing, and we are admonished TO SEE, and TO CHOOSE LIFE: and yet you choose to see death, physical death.

This admonishment TO SEE is in like manner to the admonishment TO HEAR, as even in the very first word of the first great commandment, "HEAR, O Yisrael...", (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Mark 12:29-30), the shama of the Shema, to hear intelligently, which is to hear with understanding.

From the very beginning, from Genesis 2:17, you are driven off course by the natural mind into the ditch for not believing that the Torah-Word of the Father is spiritual, just as Paul says in Romans 7:14.

 

[Clare73]

It is up to you to actually prove that your interpretation is true. You have not done that because you did not hear what is said in the passage I quoted five times now. It has nothing to do with what you claim. To see death and to taste of death are two different things in the N/T apostolic teachings. You are apparently not able to see the difference in what you read. That isn't my fault or my problem.
The whole premise of your assertion is false and this is already proven by the fact that
you see death in what you read, physical death,

"Tis not me, but the NT which sees physical death as the consequences of covenant-law breaking. (Romans 5:12-14)

 

[daq]

"Tis not me, but the NT which sees physical death as the consequences of covenant-law breaking. (Romans 5:12-14)

That only means that you read it that way. There are many examples that do not agree with your way of seeing. The Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts determines the entire N/T perspective on everything. Those who guard-keep the Logos of the Master will not see physical death in the teachings of the scripture. The flesh profits nothing: especially true regarding doctrine.

 

[Clare73]

That only means that you read it that way. There are many examples that do not agree with your way of seeing. The Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts determines the entire N/T perspective on everything. Those who guard-keep the Logos of the Master will not see physical death in the teachings of the scripture. The flesh profits nothing: especially true regarding doctrine.

It's not about wording, it's about events recorded.

 

[daq]

"Tis not me, but the NT which sees physical death as the consequences of covenant-law breaking. (Romans 5:12-14)

Moreover we are right back at square one: death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, not from Adam until now, and therefore it doesn't speak of physical death.

And again, the Torah is designed to kill the old man nature, and to guard us from spiritual death until faith has come: that is why Paul says that the Torah is become our tutor or schoolmaster unto Messiah. That is why he says that death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, for the Torah was obviously given through Mosheh, and that is why Paul says in that passage that those under the Torah were hemmed in and shut up by the Torah until faith had come.

The Torah is figured by Paul as something like a protective sheep pen in that passage, (Galatians 3:23). Erroneous doctrine hides the truth from the eyes of the reader: set aside the paradigm filter and allow yourself to be taught of Elohim as we are supposed to be, (John 6:45, Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:34, John 7:16-17).

When we sin, we die, and that is not physical but spiritual, and therefore death reigned from Adam until Mosheh, not from Adam until Messiah or from Adam until now: for Paul is speaking of spiritual death, just as in passages such as Ephesians 2:1-5.

The Father does not physically kill His own creation for sinning, but is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish.

 

[daq]

It's not about wording, it's about events recorded.

I am not even sure what you mean by this.