IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9?

[daq]

In Rom 5, Paul made it clear, that death reigned for sin, from Adam to Moses, because the law was not given as yet. This death is end of life, not spiritual death. The bible teaches; The soul that sin, it shall die.

Rom 5:12¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

In the doctrine of the Messiah your interpretation means that you must literally-physically take up your own stake and be literally-physically crucified because the soul that sins must die either way. Therefore you render void the free gift of his Testimony which is full of grace.

 

[Clare73]

In the doctrine of the Messiah your interpretation means that you must literally-physically take up your own stake and be literally-physically crucified because the soul that sins must die either way. Therefore you render void the free gift of his Testimony which is full of grace.

It means absolutely no such thing.

Romans 5:12-14 is speaking of physical death, not spiritual death.

 

[daq]

It means absolutely no such thing.

Romans 5:12-14 is speaking of physical death, not spiritual death.

It's right there in the renewed covenant we have discussed and debated so often.

Jeremiah 31:27-31 KJV
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

No more blaming your forefather Adam for eating a sour grape: in the renewed covenant you shall die for your own iniquity.

We've been over these things but again, the natural mind refuses to die, so he turns such things into physical death so as to put them off until the end life and not do them now: for he chooses to see physical death in the spiritual Word of the Father who is Spirit, and therefore he cannot please Elohim, for the natural man cannot be subject to the Torah of Elohim, just as Paul says.

 

[Cribstyl]

In the doctrine of the Messiah your interpretation means that you must literally-physically take up your own stake and be literally-physically crucified because the soul that sins must die either way. Therefore you render void the free gift of his Testimony which is full of grace.

Under the Old Covenant righteousness was according to the keeping of law.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Under the New Covenant forgiveness of sin is the good news. So righteousness is by confessing of faith in Christ's atonement for sins. The gospel has nothing to do with keeping the law. (False doctrines use schemes and Old Covenant texts to chain themselves to a judgement they cant win. The reject God's grace and truth for error.)

Rom 3:21¶But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[Clare73]

It's right there in the renewed covenant we have discussed and debated so often.

Previously litigated. . .will not be relitigating it.

 

[daq]

Under the Old Covenant righteousness was according to the keeping of law.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Under the New Covenant forgiveness of sin is the good news. So righteousness is by confessing of faith in Christ's atonement for sins. The gospel has nothing to do with keeping the law. (false doctrines use schemes and Old Covenant texts to chain themselves to a judgement they cant win, by rejecting grace and truth for error.)

Rom 3:21¶But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

"(false doctrines use schemes and Old Covenant texts to chain themselves to a judgement they cant win, by rejecting grace and truth for error.)"

You yourself just used a text from Ezekiel 18, and even that you do not understand, which is clear by the fact that you cherry-picked from the passage what you wanted the scripture to say for you. The passage even uses the exact same proverb from Jeremiah which I quoted from in the previous post above.

Ezekiel 18:1-22 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

This is what it means to actually believe on the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts because he is continually expounding the Torah and the Prophets in all his teachings. If one says he or she believes, and does not do, they are not his, (Romans 8:9).

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ezekiel 18:21 KJV
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

The Ephesians actually believed on the Testimony of the Messiah and were actually doing his commandments and teachings: not just naming and claiming something to get a reward.

Luke 14:25-27 KJV
25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life [psuche - soul] also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

 

[daq]

Previously litigated. . .will not be relitigating it.

Previously regurgitated. . .Please find a new deflection.

 

[Clare73]

Previously regurgitated. . .Please find a new deflection.

When you find a Biblically sound argument. . .

 

[daq]

When you find a Biblically sound argument. . .

Lol, so when there is a Biblically sound argument, according to your personal judgment, you have a different deflection?

Your personal judgment of the matter assumes that my argument isn't "Biblically sound" and yet my argument is based in the scripture which I have quoted in support of what I have said. Your personal judgment of the matter is therefore meaningless to me.

 

[Cribstyl]

"(false doctrines use schemes and Old Covenant texts to chain themselves to a judgement they cant win, by rejecting grace and truth for error.)"

You yourself just used a text from Ezekiel 18, and even that you do not understand, which is clear by the fact that you cherry-picked from the passage what you wanted the scripture to say for you. The passage even uses the exact same proverb from Jeremiah which I quoted from in the previous post above.

Ezekiel 18:1-22 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

Obviously you didn't know, the proverb was based on the first commandment of the ten commandments. God had established in the law, to visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the 3rd and 4th generation.
So, the people could use the proverb that; their fathers did the crime and they do the time. Here's what the commandment say.
Exo 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


So, when God said "Behold" He changed the law and said you don't have any reason to use that proverb anymore. So, no more suffering for your father's sin
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All Old Covenant times

 

[daq]

Obviously you didn't know, the proverb was based on the first commandment of the ten commandments. God had established in the law, to visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the 3rd and 4th generation.
So, the people could use the proverb that; their fathers did the crime and they do the time. Here's what the commandment say.
Exo 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


So, when God said "Behold" He changed the law and said you don't have any reason to use that proverb anymore. So, no more suffering for your father's sin
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All Old Covenant times

You missed the other Torah quote already posted in this thread when these things were discussed with Clare73, (IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9? #483), which refutes your interpretation of those passages.

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The Prophet Ezekiel is expounding the Torah just as all the Prophets likewise do. Therefore you do not understand the Torah passage which you have quoted, Exodus 20:5-6, which is also found in Numbers 14:17-19 and Deuteronomy 5:9-10. And, no, Clare73 did not "litigate" these things away: she only chooses to believe she has done so.

 

[Cribstyl]

You missed the other Torah quote already posted in this thread when these things were discussed with Clare73, (IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9? #483), which refutes your interpretation of those passages.

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The Prophet Ezekiel is expounding the Torah just as all the Prophets likewise do. Therefore you do not understand the Torah passage which you have quoted, Exodus 20:5-6, which is also found in Numbers 14:17-19 and Deuteronomy 5:9-10. And, no, Clare73 did not "litigate" these things away: she only chooses to believe she has done so.

First of all, I had not read that post. (I've been gone from CF for a few years). Your reference and comments in post #483 were totally false.
In Duet 24:16 Moses is telling the people how to apply justice and not to kill a man's father if a man (slave or servant) sin against them. That's totally different from what God said He would do in the first commandment. Context always matter.
Just maybe I understand the Torah a little better than you will give me credit for.

 

[atpollard]

We know that Paul wrote the book of ROMANS ,and in Rom 13:9 he writes , For this , thou shall not commit Adultery .

#2 Thou shall not kill .

#3 thou shall not bear false witness ,

#4 Thou shall not Covet .

Notice what Paul let OUT ?

I believe the Law , what bis called the OLD COVENANT was set aside as Paul wrote in 2 Cor 3:13 .

And nowhere does Paul say we are in the NEW COVENANT !!

dan p

I think that Paul, in that specific verse, was attempting to say that “adultery” and “murder” and “lies” and “covetousness” are all bad. I happen to agree with Paul.

Hebrews has a LOT to say about the old Covenant and the new Covenant. (HINT: the NEW is better.)

 

[daq]

First of all, I had not read that post. (I've been gone from CF for a few years). Your reference and comments in post #483 were totally false.
In Duet 24:16 Moses is telling the people how to apply justice and not to kill a man's father if a man (slave or servant) sin against them. That's totally different from what God said He would do in the first commandment. Context always matter.
Just maybe I understand the Torah a little better than you will give me credit for.

So basically you expect me to believe that Exodus 20:5 teaches a generational curse, from a father to the third and fourth generation, but when "God says, Behold", in the Ezekiel passage, He is changing the Torah.

Obviously you didn't know, the proverb was based on the first commandment of the ten commandments. God had established in the law, to visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the 3rd and 4th generation.
So, the people could use the proverb that; their fathers did the crime and they do the time. Here's what the commandment say.
Exo 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


So, when God said "Behold" He changed the law and said you don't have any reason to use that proverb anymore. So, no more suffering for your father's sin
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All Old Covenant times

Yes, that is what you strongly implied, and no, Exodus 20:5 is not teaching a generational curse to the third and fourth generation. This is explained in the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings, and the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts.

FOUR GENERATIONS:
Proverbs 30:11-14, Daniel 7, Hosea 13, Revelation 13, Matthew 12:39-45, Luke 11:24-32.

 

[Clare73]

Lol, so when there is a Biblically sound argument, according to your personal judgment,
you have a different deflection?

Yes, it is, "Good job! . . .catch you on the next one."

Your personal judgment of the matter assumes that my argument isn't "Biblically sound" and yet my argument is based in the scripture which I have quoted in support of what I have said. Your personal judgment of the matter is therefore meaningless to me.

Previously litigated. . .will not be relitigating it.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Leaf473]

"(false doctrines use schemes and Old Covenant texts to chain themselves to a judgement they cant win, by rejecting grace and truth for error.)"

You yourself just used a text from Ezekiel 18, and even that you do not understand, which is clear by the fact that you cherry-picked from the passage what you wanted the scripture to say for you. The passage even uses the exact same proverb from Jeremiah which I quoted from in the previous post above.

Ezekiel 18:1-22 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

This is what it means to actually believe on the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts because he is continually expounding the Torah and the Prophets in all his teachings. If one says he or she believes, and does not do, they are not his, (Romans 8:9).

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ezekiel 18:21 KJV
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

The Ephesians actually believed on the Testimony of the Messiah and were actually doing his commandments and teachings: not just naming and claiming something to get a reward.

Luke 14:25-27 KJV
25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life [psuche - soul] also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Interesting that "come near to a menstruous woman" is listed along with things like idolatry.

 

[Clare73]

I think that Paul, in that specific verse, was attempting to say that “adultery” and “murder” and “lies” and “covetousness” are all bad.

He is saying that the law "and whatever other commandment there may be" are fulfilled in loving our neighbor Romans 13:8-10.

I happen to agree with Paul.

Hebrews has a LOT to say about the old Covenant and the new Covenant. (HINT: the NEW is better.)

 

[Cribstyl]

So basically you expect me to believe that Exodus 20:5 teaches a generational curse, from a father to the third and fourth generation, but when "God says, Behold", in the Ezekiel passage, He is changing the Torah.

Did I say that??? I already know we wont agree on anything, so we're done.

Yes, that is what you strongly implied, and no, Exodus 20:5 is not teaching a generational curse to the third and fourth generation. This is explained in the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings, and the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts.

FOUR GENERATIONS:
Proverbs 30:11-14, Daniel 7, Hosea 13, Revelation 13, Matthew 12:39-45, Luke 11:24-32.

 

[daq]

Did I say that??? I already know we wont agree on anything, so we're done.

You said God changed His own Torah through Ezekiel, so yeah, you're right, we are not going to agree.

Torah is instruction, not a bunch of do's and don'ts, and instruction is teaching, and real truth doesn't become obsolete or need to be overturned. Mosheh was faithful in all his house and you are therefore misguided.