If I'm an Atheist and I am not a bad person, will I go to hell?

[bhsmte]

It sounds like you're on the same road I used to be on, which is actually the opposite of what is based in Christianity.

There was once a post of a picture drawn of Jesus putting a gun to someone's head with the quote "Love me or you'll burn" and then it's an easy concept that all athiests, for the some part, believe that Christians follow the principal that we're forced to love a Man or suffer from His "lonesome" wrath but in reality it's the opposite. Which opens the gates of realizing God's love.

You sinned. Yeah..you did. And your consequence, since the Creator can't look upon sin, is to burn. Initially Hell was never intended for us humans but thanks to Adam and Eve it is. Now...you can go about your merry way and burn in the end...but to make it and life a lot easier for you, He gave us Someone that can relieve us of our eminent doom and His name is Jesus.

Whether you believe it or not is totally up to you but in the end "if you're right and I'm wrong: I wasted my life. But if I'm right and you're wrong: you wasted your eternity."

It's not so much who is right or wrong, it is more about what each person can reconcile in their own mind. I couldn't reconcile the Christian story any longer after 40 years after acquiring knowledge, without playing mind games with myself and essentially lying to myself. I couldn't do that and if it means I am doomed, then I am doomed.

 

[seekingsolace]

Have you ever explored this question, from a scientific standpoint?

Indeed I have.

 

[Oafman]

Whether you believe it or not is totally up to you but in the end "if you're right and I'm wrong: I wasted my life. But if I'm right and you're wrong: you wasted your eternity."

What if we're both wrong and it's Allah? And he's annoyed with atheists but livid with Christians?

What if it's all an alien reality TV show, and you just have to sit through your 'best bits' before being applauded out of the studio?

What if it's a god of evidenced reasoning, who rewards those who steadfastly demanded falsifiable evidence for everything they accepted to be true, and eternally punishes those who allowed themselves to be duped by beliefs not supported by evidence? I implore you to repent, before it's too late. Refuse to accept anything for which there in insufficient evidence, or you'll be condemned for eternity!

 

[seekingsolace]

What if it's all an alien reality TV show, and you just have to sit through your 'best bits' before being applauded out of the studio?

What if it's a god of evidenced reasoning, who rewards those who steadfastly demanded falsifiable evidence for everything they accepted to be true, and eternally punishes those who allowed themselves to be duped by beliefs not supported by evidence? I implore you to repent, before it's too late. Refuse to accept anything for which there in insufficient evidence, or you'll be condemned for eternity!

Stop trying to derail the thread to pettiness. People were having sensible discussions then you have to chime in with nonsense.

 

[Oafman]

Stop trying to derail the thread to pettiness. People were having sensible discussions then you have to chime in with nonsense.

I merely responded to Pascal's wager in kind. Nothing I suggested is any less believable than any religion that has ever existed.

 

[Albion]

Maybe "evil" wasn't the right word to use here, what I basically meant to say is I haven't done anything really, really horrible to anyone or anything. Basically I'm not psychopath, ha.

I'm sure that's right, but it's also important to understand -- if one truly wants to understand this stuff -- that it's not only the most obvious and vicious sins that are sins.

 

[Skavau]

From your perspective, why does this matter? You've rejected Christ which means you do not believe the teachings of the Bible. If you don't believe in that, then surely you can't believe you'll be punished for eternity. Why are you so concerned about it? You've forfeited your faith in a Savior you don't believe in, you shouldn't worry so much.

We don't worry. Christianity is untrue to me. I don't toss and turn at night sweating over the prospect of heaven or hell anymore than I do concerning Islam.

The problem is that what you believe in, what you endorse is morally reprehensible. If it is true that Hell exists and that all Non-Christians (Or Non-Muslims if Islam is true instead) are destined to enter hell by consequence of being imperfect then we have a situation where billions upon billions of people are being tortured, for eternity. Nothing in the history of human endeavour comes close to the carnage of such a system. You believe that to be just. You believe that the systematic torture of an entire species, for the crime of being that species deserves to be tortured for eternity. You believe that the only way out of that torture is to believe a specific story and pledge your allegiance to the protagonist of that specific story. This 'solution' causes the ignorant and the skeptical to be abandoned to their fate of being tortured for eternity.

This isn't ethical. If your belief system is true I see no reason why your God is worthy of worship and no reason why I should consider you an effective ambassador of morality.

'Good' and 'Bad' are all about perspective. Anything that happens for the glory of God is good, regardless. Sure from our perspective, things can look pretty crappy. Was it good that my mother shot herself? I don't think so, in fact it really sucked for lack of a better word. How about looking at it from a different perspective. What about the fact that my step father was abusing her, physically and mentally? Does that change things a bit? What about the fact that it saved my life, and eventually led me to the Lord? I find that to be a very good thing. Perspective.

So are you saying it was a good thing that your mother committed suicide? That there was no better outcome in that scenario?

In either trust in God's plan or GTFO.

Presumably you really mean "trust in God's plan or suffer eternally forever".

 

[Skavau]

What greater way can you show humility and love than to become as the creature you created; to suffer, be humiliated and killed by them, for them. No person has all the answers, I struggled with some of the points you highlighted. If you have an experience it's life changing, I truly hope you do. Religion may seem foolish, it did to me, sometimes you just need to accept we don't have the answers, and just ask.

To save them from a situation you placed them into in the first place. It doesn't seem poetic, it seems like a crude form of tyranny. The notion that the action of an individual thousands of years before I was born someone binds me.

 

[Albion]

To save them from a situation you placed them into in the first place. It doesn't seem poetic, it seems like a crude form of tyranny. The notion that the action of an individual thousands of years before I was born someone binds me.

How do you feel about being the product of thousands and thousands of years of biological evolution and even your health prognosis is largely determined by genetics? Crude forms of tyranny??

 

[Skavau]

It sounds like you're on the same road I used to be on, which is actually the opposite of what is based in Christianity.

There was once a post of a picture drawn of Jesus putting a gun to someone's head with the quote "Love me or you'll burn" and then it's an easy concept that all athiests, for the some part, believe that Christians follow the principal that we're forced to love a Man or suffer from His "lonesome" wrath but in reality it's the opposite. Which opens the gates of realizing God's love.

You sinned. Yeah..you did. And your consequence, since the Creator can't look upon sin, is to burn.

Why? Why is that the necessary consequence?

Initially Hell was never intended for us humans but thanks to Adam and Eve it is.

How is that ethical? How do the actions of two individuals long before I was born somehow bind my fate to a certain conclusion?

Why do two people condemn an entire species?

Now...you can go about your merry way and burn in the end...but to make it and life a lot easier for you, He gave us Someone that can relieve us of our eminent doom and His name is Jesus

That's great, if you believe that Christianity is true. That is the necessary prerequisite. If you do not, if you have no reason to assume that it is true then you cannot accept vicarious redemption and cannot be saved. This is the fundamental problem behind the method of salvation - it requires someone to accept a specific claim about reality.

Whether you believe it or not is totally up to you but in the end "if you're right and I'm wrong: I wasted my life. But if I'm right and you're wrong: you wasted your eternity."

Pascal's Wager is unethical. You're encouraging to lie to God, to believe out of fear of punishment. Do you not imagine that God will see through such a thing? Do you think that you're setting the right image of your faith by even making that statement at all?

It is also of note that if Islam is true, which you're assuming it is not, that you are risking quite a lot yourself.

 

[Skavau]

How do you feel about being the product of thousands and thousands of years of biological evolution and even your health prognosis is largely determined by genetics? Crude forms of tyranny??

There's no entity, no being that personally directs evolution or watches with indifference as evolution causes harmful mutations onto individuals.

The universe may be cruel, indifferent but I don't claim it has our best interests in mind.

Tu Quoque, as they say and not a good one.

 

[Albion]

There's no entity, no being that personally directs evolution or watches with indifference as evolution causes harmful mutations onto individuals.

No, it's a number of individuals "binding" you with that "cruel form of tyranny" you spoke of.

IOW, no real diff.

 

[Skavau]

No, it's a number of individuals "binding" you with that "cruel form of tyranny" you spoke of.

IOW, no real diff.

With no intent or control. Evolution is not personally directed by anyone unless we're talking about artificial selection. Such an endeavour which is used on cats & dogs takes generations and generations to achieve and only effects their emotional and physical traits, not condemns to torture for eternity for being born a certain way.

 

[HannahElizaW]

What if it's all an alien reality TV show, and you just have to sit through your 'best bits' before being applauded out of the studio?

It very well "could" be but where is the logical consistency behind that not-so in depth theory as well as any other theory you've given?

 

[Xalith]

My bolding.

You believe God expects a perfection that no man has ever achieved. God created us to fail. To fall short of his expectations. Born sick and ordered to be well. And then he demands we beg for forgiveness?

This whole idea is so deeply horrible, as well as totally illogical. It mystifies me how anyone can actually believe it

God didn't create us to fail. God didn't create us to fall short of His expectations. We weren't "born sick and ordered to be well".

God created Adam and Eve to be perfect, "in His image". This included a free will. God gave Adam one single commandment: "Do not eat the Forbidden Fruit of the Knowledge of Good & Evil".

Satan, who existed before Adam, enticed Eve to break the Commandment, and then Eve convinced Adam to do the same, an in doing so, bestowed themselves with the knowledge of Good and Evil. God then pronounced a curse on the Earth, the curse of Death, and ever since, the Sin Nature is passed down from Parents to Offspring, for the rest of human history.

However, even though He cursed the Earth, He still loved his creation. He gave Commandments unto Moses (Mosaic Law) of things they could do to please Him, and to atone for the Sin Nature they inherited from Adam and Eve's transgression of eating of the forbidden fruit.

However, He did so to teach us that Laws and Works can't save us. It didn't take long for Israel, His chosen people, to backslide and debase themselves with a multitude of sins.

God eventually destroyed most of Israel, saved a remnant of the people, and gave them every opportunity to repent and turn back towards Him. A few did.

Awhile later, he sent Jesus Christ to the earth, the Son in human flesh, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, and to establish a New Covenant. God Knows that Man cannot be Holy on their own. It is impossible -- all mankind is corrupted with sin (thanks to Adam and Eve). God didn't create this sin, Satan did.

After showing us why we needed a savior (the fact that our Sin Nature inherently tells us to rebel against laws, therefore making laws is the wrong thing to do), He sent the Savior, so that we could have THE easiest way to find Him in Heaven after our Earthly life is done. He made it so ridiculously easy... you just accept Christ, Repent for your sin, and have faith that He will wash all of your sins away and all will be forgiven.

That's all you need to do. Believe He died on the cross as the Perfect Sacrifice for our Sin, and Repent for said Sin, and He will take care of the rest. He'll send the Holy Spirit to dwell within you, which will act as your guide and comforter, which will justify you and save you from His judgment, and over time, the Holy Spirit will sanctify you, making you more and more like Him.

The whole thing about Christ is the idea of cleansing ourselves from the Sin Nature that we all have from birth. God didn't create this Sin Nature; He wants to save us from it. However, He also wants all mankind to have free will, to choose their own destiny.

Those who choose to keep their Sin Nature will reap the "rewards" that brings -- an Eternal separation from God in the "Outer Darkness" where there will be "Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth", the very same place Satan and all of the Demons will eventually end up.

It isn't "He made us sick and orders us to be well", it is more like "He made us perfect, Satan corrupted us, He wants to heal us, and He gave us an easy remedy, but most don't want to believe in something so simple so they refuse to take the said Remedy".

 

[Skavau]

God didn't create us to fail. God didn't create us to fall short of His expectations. We weren't "born sick and ordered to be well".

God created Adam and Eve to be perfect, "in His image". This included a free will. God gave Adam one single commandment: "Do not eat the Forbidden Fruit of the Knowledge of Good & Evil".

Satan, who existed before Adam, enticed Eve to break the Commandment, and then Eve convinced Adam to do the same, an in doing so, bestowed themselves with the knowledge of Good and Evil. God then pronounced a curse on the Earth, the curse of Death, and ever since, the Sin Nature is passed down from Parents to Offspring, for the rest of human history.

So how is that ethical? How is it ethical for an entire species to be cursed with sin because of the actions of two individuals?

However, He did so to teach us that Laws and Works can't save us. It didn't take long for Israel, His chosen people, to backslide and debase themselves with a multitude of sins.

God eventually destroyed most of Israel, saved a remnant of the people, and gave them every opportunity to repent and turn back towards Him. A few did.

Awhile later, he sent Jesus Christ to the earth, the Son in human flesh, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, and to establish a New Covenant. God Knows that Man cannot be Holy on their own. It is impossible -- all mankind is corrupted with sin (thanks to Adam and Eve). God didn't create this sin, Satan did.

Yet God watched with apparent indifference as sin infected all of humanity and caused us, by default, to receive eternal torture as a default punishment for having the temerity to be born tainted with the propensity towards being imperfect.

After showing us why we needed a savior (the fact that our Sin Nature inherently tells us to rebel against laws, therefore making laws is the wrong thing to do), He sent the Savior, so that we could have THE easiest way to find Him in Heaven after our Earthly life is done. He made it so ridiculously easy... you just accept Christ, Repent for your sin, and have faith that He will wash all of your sins away and all will be forgiven.

It is only "easy" if you believe Christianity is true. If you do not then there is no option available. This kind of thing cannot just be pretended. You have to be convinced of a claim before you can believe it. God's solution leads to billions of people dying unsaved and entering hell for no reason other that they didn't know otherwise. They didn't know they were tainted. They didn't know they had 'sin'. They didn't know that God exists, or heaven existed, or hell existed or even chose a different religious philosophy and put their faith, their hopes and their plans in that. This is ethical to you?

It isn't "He made us sick and orders us to be well", it is more like "He made us perfect, Satan corrupted us, He wants to heal us, and He gave us an easy remedy, but most don't want to believe in something so simple so they refuse to take the said Remedy".

Okay: He watched as we became imperfect and then demands us to be well and sets upon a strange method of becoming well by instituting a pardon that exempts judgement for people who believe a specific way.

 

[bhsmte]

It very well "could" be but where is the logical consistency behind that not-so in depth theory as well as any other theory you've given?

Where is the reasoned logic behind your opinion?

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Skavau, thankyou for your posts.

You say everything I would like to say, but in a fashion that I can't quite articulate myself.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

It very well "could" be but where is the logical consistency behind that not-so in depth theory as well as any other theory you've given?

Where is the logical consistency behind Christianity?

 

[Xalith]

So how is that ethical? How is it ethical for an entire species to be cursed with sin because of the actions of two individuals?

Who are we, with our flawed minds, to question the ethicality of God, or His reasoning?

Yet God watched with apparent indifference as sin infected all of humanity and caused us, by default, to receive eternal torture as a default punishment for having the temerity to be born tainted with the propensity towards being imperfect.

He had an eternal plan from the start of Everything. Can we really question what He wants to accomplish with this plan? He allows what He does for reasons only He knows. Again, our flawed minds do not have any business whatsoever questioning a Being like God.

It is only "easy" if you believe Christianity is true. If you do not then there is no option available. This kind of thing cannot just be pretended. You have to be convinced of a claim before you can believe it. God's solution leads to billions of people dying unsaved and entering hell for no reason other that they didn't know otherwise. They didn't know they were tainted. They didn't know they had 'sin'. They didn't know that God exists, or heaven existed, or hell existed or even chose a different religious philosophy and put their faith, their hopes and their plans in that. This is ethical to you?

God spread his Gospel to the ends of the Earth for this very reason. Now, the Bible makes small hints (I don't really have the time to dig up specific passages) that those who have not heard the Gospel before their death are treated differently than those who have heard it. If you've heard the Gospel, and you've chosen to reject Christ, then you get your just rewards at the end, like everybody else does.

Nobody goes to Hell without knowing why. If you heard the Gospel and chose not to believe, that isn't His fault, but yours. If you choose to not believe in Christianity, that is a risk you take, despite all of the evidence out there that points to what the Bible says as being true. You've been told of the consequences of unbelief, so there are no excuses once you're there. I don't say this to be mean, I'm saying this lovingly hoping that you will re-think your stances on this.

What are your true reasons for disbelieving?

Okay: He watched as we became imperfect and then demands us to be well and sets upon a strange method of becoming well by instituting a pardon that exempts judgement for people who believe a specific way.

He does what He does for a reason. He created all things, and He does with his creation as He wills. And I still think you've a bit of a sour mindset about the whole thing, and I'm trying to understand why. You're deliberately twisting words around to make God sound bad or something, as if you've something personal against Him. I'm just trying to understand where all of the snide language and anger towards Him is coming from.

Again -- why do you truly reject Him? Is it because you don't like the idea of living a live away from the sins you've come to enjoy? Is it because you have a misunderstanding about what Christian Life is really supposed to be about? Is it because you just want to be rebellious? Is it because you just simply hate those who call themselves Christian?

I'm trying to understand here...