If I'm an Atheist and I am not a bad person, will I go to hell?

[Xalith]

Where is the logical consistency behind Christianity?

You want to apply the logic of Men to the things of God?

I'm not understanding how you can think this can work.

Can a Cat or a Dog apply its limited knowledge to why a man stuffs foul-tasting substances down its mouth? Does the Cat or Dog understand that it is medicine that will heal its ailments over time? Does the Cat or Dog understand when a man limits their food intake to prevent obesity/puking? Does the Cat or Dog understand why we don't want it defecating on the floor?

Of course not.

Neither can we apply our logic to One Higher Than Us using our lesser reasoning. God Gave us Reasoning, but not Reasoning as high as His, just as the Dogs and Cats have a measure of intelligence, but not the type of reasoning we have.

 

[Skavau]

Who are we, with our flawed minds, to question the ethicality of God, or His reasoning?

I'll take this as an admittance that you have no argument. That you don't know why it is ethical for us to be cursed with a taint based on the actions of our ancestors.

He had an eternal plan from the start of Everything. Can we really question what He wants to accomplish with this plan? He allows what He does for reasons only He knows. Again, our flawed minds do not have any business whatsoever questioning a Being like God.

Yes. Part of being human is to question. God's plan, by your own assertion directly causes the eternal suffering of billions of people. That is something that should not be glossed over or ignored.

God spread his Gospel to the ends of the Earth for this very reason. Now, the Bible makes small hints (I don't really have the time to dig up specific passages) that those who have not heard the Gospel before their death are treated differently than those who have heard it. If you've heard the Gospel, and you've chosen to reject Christ, then you get your just rewards at the end, like everybody else does.

Being exposed to Christianity, being aware that Christianity exists does not mean that you believe Christianity is true. Much of the planet is aware that Christianity as a religion exists but that does not mean that people, individuals have good reason from their understanding to believe that it is true.

Why does hearing about Christianity, but rejecting it constitute good reason to suffer eternal torment?

Nobody goes to Hell without knowing why. If you heard the Gospel and chose not to believe, that isn't His fault, but yours.

You do not choose to believe in things. Belief is a conclusion effected by one's own exposure to specific evidence and reasoned argument. I cannot just believe that 1+1 = 3. I have to be convinced that such is true. Similarly I would have to be convinced that Christianity is true before I could accept vicarious redemption.

If you choose to not believe in Christianity, that is a risk you take, despite all of the evidence out there that points to what the Bible says as being true.

I have no reason, from my perspective, to preference Christianity over Islam. That you do yourself is, by your own argument taking a risk and betting against Islam being true.

If Islam turns out to be true does that mean you deserve eternal torment?

You've been told of the consequences of unbelief, so there are no excuses once you're there. I don't say this to be mean, I'm saying this lovingly hoping that you will re-think your stances on this.

What are your true reasons for disbelieving?

Do not accuse me of lying. I do not believe that Christianity is true.

I also will not be intimidated, threatened into pretending otherwise.

He does what He does for a reason. He created all things, and He does with his creation as He wills. And I still think you've a bit of a sour mindset about the whole thing, and I'm trying to understand why. You're deliberately twisting words around to make God sound bad or something, as if you've something personal against Him. I'm just trying to understand where all of the snide language and anger towards Him is coming from.

An entity that institutes a scenario where billions of people are tortured for eternity is an entity not worth worshiping.

I do not think you truly grasp the implications of what you believe. If it is true that Hell exists and that all Non-Christians (Or Non-Muslims if Islam is true instead) are destined to enter hell by consequence of being imperfect then we have a situation where billions upon billions of people are being tortured, for eternity. Nothing in the history of human endeavour comes close to the carnage of such a system. You believe that to be just. You believe that the systematic torture of an entire species, for the crime of being that species deserves to be tortured for eternity. You believe that the only way out of that torture is to believe a specific story and pledge your allegiance to the protagonist of that specific story. This 'solution' causes the ignorant and the skeptical to be abandoned to their fate of being tortured for eternity.

Again -- why do you truly reject Him? Is it because you don't like the idea of living a live away from the sins you've come to enjoy? Is it because you have a misunderstanding about what Christian Life is really supposed to be about? Is it because you just want to be rebellious? Is it because you just simply hate those who call themselves Christian?

I'm trying to understand here...

I don't believe in Christianity because I don't believe that Christianity is likely to be true.

I reject the Christian world view because I find it to be unethical.

 

[Conscious Z]

How is this topic a philosophical topic? It belongs in a Christian theology forum.

 

[Xalith]

I'll take this as an admittance that you have no argument. That you don't know why it is ethical for us to be cursed with a taint based on the actions of our ancestors.

"Ethical" ... by whose standards? Yours? Those of other Men? Are you truly saying that you think yourself to be a better judge of ethics and standards than a being like God?

I'm not going to apply my flawed reasoning of "ethics" to anything God does -- that is not my business, that is not my place. That is for God Alone to do.

Yes. Part of being human is to question. God's plan, by your own assertion directly causes the eternal suffering of billions of people. That is something that should not be glossed over or ignored.

He does not directly cause the eternal suffering of billions of people, or even one person. Every person who suffers Eternity in Hell does so of their own free will. God said we must do one thing, and one thing only: Obey Him. His commands to us change over time, as He teaches us, but at the core of it, is "Obey Me". If you created something that had its own free will, would you not want it to obey you? What would you think, if it decided that its reasoning was better than yours, even though it were not as smart as you?

You do not choose to believe in things. Belief is a conclusion effected by one's own exposure to specific evidence and reasoned argument. I cannot just believe that 1+1 = 3. I have to be convinced that such is true. Similarly I would have to be convinced that Christianity is true before I could accept vicarious redemption.

You can start with the Scriptures. Did you know that the Christian Bible is the only religion's Holy Scriptures that cannot be proven false by true science? Did you know that the Christian Bible explains things (in loose terms) that Humans wouldn't come to know or prove on their own for quite a while longer? This could be expanded, but I'll just leave it go at that.

I have no reason, from my perspective, to preference Christianity over Islam. That you do yourself is, by your own argument taking a risk and betting against Islam being true.

If Islam turns out to be true does that mean you deserve eternal torment?

If Islam were true, then yes. However, I know that it isn't true, as some of their writings can be proven false.

Do not accuse me of lying. I do not believe that Christianity is true.

I also will not be intimidated, threatened into pretending otherwise.

I never accused you of lying; I merely wanted you to step back and think for a moment as to your real reasons you disbelieve.

Nor did I ever attempt to intimidate or threaten you to "pretend" anything.

An entity that institutes a scenario where billions of people are tortured for eternity is an entity not worth worshiping.

I do not think you truly grasp the implications of what you believe. If it is true that Hell exists and that all Non-Christians (Or Non-Muslims if Islam is true instead) are destined to enter hell by consequence of being imperfect then we have a situation where billions upon billions of people are being tortured, for eternity. Nothing in the history of human endeavour comes close to the carnage of such a system. You believe that to be just. You believe that the systematic torture of an entire species, for the crime of being that species deserves to be tortured for eternity. You believe that the only way out of that torture is to believe a specific story and pledge your allegiance to the protagonist of that specific story. This 'solution' causes the ignorant and the skeptical to be abandoned to their fate of being tortured for eternity.

Again, you've got this odd notion that these "billions upon billions of people" are being tortured because of something they had no control over. Ever since the very start of Human History, God has always made Himself known to his Chosen People and asked them to spread the word about Him so that others would come Home as well. However, the power in the world (Satan) is always working to cause disbelief and dissent, and attacks those trying to spread the good Word. This has gone on for as long as human history existed.

Nowadays... the Gospel has been spread to the far corners of the Earth, the Bible has been translated into pretty much every known modern language, and the Gospel is known by just about everybody.

Choosing not to believe in it, is not God's fault.

I don't believe in Christianity because I don't believe that Christianity is likely to be true.

Again, just start with the Bible and go from there. God said from the Beginning at his Word breathed is True. You know how many hundreds of years people have been trying to disprove the Bible? Well.... they haven't. Nor will they. It alone is the only Scriptures that no one can disprove. There's a reason for that.......

I reject the Christian world view because I find it to be unethical.

Unethical... again, you apply your own standards in the place of God's. But, if that is your choice, that is your choice. We cannot see the whole picture like He does. There are things our reasoning cannot handle, there are things our limited intelligence can't figure out.

Again: We have no business attempting to apply our standards and ethics against God's actions. It doesn't matter if you believe in Christianity or not, most people believe in some sort of Divine Being, or Creator. If you believe in such a Being existing, what makes you think your mortal mind can ever hope to comprehend on said Being's level?

 

[GillDouglas]

We don't worry. Christianity is untrue to me. I don't toss and turn at night sweating over the prospect of heaven or hell anymore than I do concerning Islam.

The problem is that what you believe in, what you endorse is morally reprehensible. If it is true that Hell exists and that all Non-Christians (Or Non-Muslims if Islam is true instead) are destined to enter hell by consequence of being imperfect then we have a situation where billions upon billions of people are being tortured, for eternity. Nothing in the history of human endeavour comes close to the carnage of such a system. You believe that to be just. You believe that the systematic torture of an entire species, for the crime of being that species deserves to be tortured for eternity. You believe that the only way out of that torture is to believe a specific story and pledge your allegiance to the protagonist of that specific story. This 'solution' causes the ignorant and the skeptical to be abandoned to their fate of being tortured for eternity.

This isn't ethical. If your belief system is true I see no reason why your God is worthy of worship and no reason why I should consider you an effective ambassador of morality.

Anyone whom God has chosen can be saved regardless of their race, gender, sex, and previous religious affiliations. Even atheists! If you reject Him then you spent eternity separated from Him. The only one to blame for ones eternal suffering are those hard of heart and stubborn.

So are you saying it was a good thing that your mother committed suicide? That there was no better outcome in that scenario?

Really? You do not think I'd wish for my mother to still be here? But that would be selfish of me anyway, and it's not my choice. It is good that she has moved on from this broken world. I'm more of a big picture kind of guy and I'm able to put my faith into something bigger than me.

Presumably you really mean "trust in God's plan or suffer eternally forever".

What I mean is have faith in the work of Jesus who died for the sin we inherited and trust in His plan for us or reject His free gift and suffer eternally.

 

[Skavau]

"Ethical" ... by whose standards? Yours? Those of other Men? Are you truly saying that you think yourself to be a better judge of ethics and standards than a being like God?

If that entity believes it acceptable to curse people with eternal torture for the 'crime' of being imperfect on the basis that our ancestors did something then yes.

I'm not going to apply my flawed reasoning of "ethics" to anything God does -- that is not my business, that is not my place. That is for God Alone to do.

Then on what basis can you reasonably argue that you are moral? You just follow orders.

He does not directly cause the eternal suffering of billions of people, or even one person.

Yes he does. He sets out the standards for entry to hell and he approves of the institution. He is the one being that could end it but elects not to.

Every person who suffers Eternity in Hell does so of their own free will.

I do not believe in hell. I cannot choose to go to a place that I do not believe in.

God said we must do one thing, and one thing only: Obey Him. His commands to us change over time, as He teaches us, but at the core of it, is "Obey Me".

That's not ethical, that's just following orders.

Would you do anything that God asked you to?

If you created something that had its own free will, would you not want it to obey you?

No. To demand that of a sentient species is otherwise referred to as slavery.

What would you think, if it decided that its reasoning was better than yours, even though it were not as smart as you?

I'd think that was entirely understandable and expected given that I endowed my creation with free-will.

You can start with the Scriptures. Did you know that the Christian Bible is the only religion's Holy Scriptures that cannot be proven false by true science?

Muslims claim much the same thing. I doubt it on both counts. In any case Christianity is set out primarily to be unfalsifiable which is not an argument in its favour.

If Islam were true, then yes. However, I know that it isn't true, as some of their writings can be proven false.

What kind of a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Why, if Islam was true, do you deserve eternal torment? What would you have done to deserve that?

I never accused you of lying; I merely wanted you to step back and think for a moment as to your real reasons you disbelieve.

I do not believe in Christianity because of the lack of evidence and good argumentation I've seen towards it and this stands on both an evidential basis and ethical basis.

Nor did I ever attempt to intimidate or threaten you to "pretend" anything.

Appealing to Pascal's Wager, as you did, is indirectly threatening people with hell.

Again, you've got this odd notion that these "billions upon billions of people" are being tortured because of something they had no control over. Ever since the very start of Human History, God has always made Himself known to his Chosen People and asked them to spread the word about Him so that others would come Home as well.

Even if belief was a choice, which it is not, those billions of people do not deserve to be tortured for eternity for having the temerity to reject Christianity. However obvious you think God is, he is not obvious to most of the planet. Muslims have no reason, from their perspective, to accept Christianity as true. Do they deserve nothing but fire and brimstone at death?

Nowadays... the Gospel has been spread to the far corners of the Earth, the Bible has been translated into pretty much every known modern language, and the Gospel is known by just about everybody.

Known of, but not believe. Most of the world are Non-Christians.

Choosing not to believe in it, is not God's fault.

Belief is not a choice and even if it was choosing to not believe in Christianity is not solid grounds to be tortured.

Again, just start with the Bible and go from there. God said from the Beginning at his Word breathed is True. You know how many hundreds of years people have been trying to disprove the Bible? Well.... they haven't. Nor will they. It alone is the only Scriptures that no one can disprove. There's a reason for that.......

This is absurd. Muslims can make the same useless claim. How do you objectively determine that something has not been disproven?

Unethical... again, you apply your own standards in the place of God's. But, if that is your choice, that is your choice. We cannot see the whole picture like He does. There are things our reasoning cannot handle, there are things our limited intelligence can't figure out.

Again: We have no business attempting to apply our standards and ethics against God's actions. It doesn't matter if you believe in Christianity or not, most people believe in some sort of Divine Being, or Creator. If you believe in such a Being existing, what makes you think your mortal mind can ever hope to comprehend on said Being's level?

You're not giving me a good argument as to why I deserve to be tortured for eternity for not believing in God.

 

[Skavau]

Anyone whom God has chosen can be saved regardless of their race, gender, sex, and previous religious affiliations. Even atheists! If you reject Him then you spent eternity separated from Him. The only one to blame for ones eternal suffering are those hard of heart and stubborn.

You've missed my point entirely. Non-Christians, from their perspective, have no reason to believe Christianity is true. They do not believe in heaven, or hell, or God, or vicarious redemption and many even believe a different religious philosophy. Why if they die do they deserve to be tortured for eternity? For being wrong? For being imperfect? How can you justify this?

Really? You do not think I'd wish for my mother to still be here? But that would be selfish of me anyway, and it's not my choice. It is good that she has moved on from this broken world. I'm more of a big picture kind of guy and I'm able to put my faith into something bigger than me.

The self-loathing of humanity and this life is one the abhorrent traits of many Christians that I find thoroughly off-putting. Life means nothing to you. This is just a staging ground.

What I mean is have faith in the work of Jesus who died for the sin we inherited and trust in His plan for us or reject His free gift and suffer eternally.

So how is that ethical? Why is moral for people who can't garner enough faith, can't believe in Christianity or have faith elsewhere to be tortured for eternity?

Most people don't believe that this "free gift" exists.

 

[Xalith]

@Skavau:

Start at 6:30 and John MacArthur explains how we can prove all Holy Books false except the Christian Bible.

Islam's flaw?

Islam's Qu'ran claims the Earth is flat and that the sky is held up by Allah so that it wouldn't fall and crush the flat Earth.

We obviously know that is false.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I dunno where to begin on this thread so I'll start here

Who are we, with our flawed minds, to question the ethicality of God, or His reasoning?

What makes us unqualified to do so?

He had an eternal plan from the start of Everything.

Which includes atheists knocking down Christianity's credibility, despite fundies doing it more efficiently, one mockery at a time.

Can we really question what He wants to accomplish with this plan? He allows what He does for reasons only He knows.

Yes. If the so called plan involves me I have every right to question it. I can question the motives, the goals, and the means because I'm directly involved.

Again, our flawed minds do not have any business whatsoever questioning a Being like God.

I don't care if my mind is flawed I'm appalled by your characterization of humans but it's so commonplace on this site I should be used to it.

God spread his Gospel to the ends of the Earth for this very reason.

Ends? You know we're a sphere right?

Now, the Bible makes small hints (I don't really have the time to dig up specific passages) that those who have not heard the Gospel before their death are treated differently than those who have heard it.

How nice of you.

If you've heard the Gospel, and you've chosen to reject Christ, then you get your just rewards at the end, like everybody else does.

I find it weird I can be a terrible person and accept Christ and get goodies.

Nobody goes to Hell without knowing why.

Why was hell created?

If you heard the Gospel and chose not to believe, that isn't His fault, but yours.

What if these gospels are just unbelievable?

If you choose to not believe in Christianity, that is a risk you take, despite all of the evidence out there that points to what the Bible says as being true.

Like what? Give some examples of things THAT ARE NOT COMMON SENSE that the bible explains.

You've been told of the consequences of unbelief, so there are no excuses once you're there. I don't say this to be mean, I'm saying this lovingly hoping that you will re-think your stances on this.

It's a threat. And if your plan is to have fun heaven while people burn and are tortured for simple disbelief you're not a good person.

What are your true reasons for disbelieving?

It's not believable! Simple!

He does what He does for a reason.

Being?

He created all things, and He does with his creation as He wills. And I still think you've a bit of a sour mindset about the whole thing, and I'm trying to understand why. You're deliberately twisting words around to make God sound bad or something,

Any mass murdering jealous dictator is bad in my book.

as if you've something personal against Him. I'm just trying to understand where all of the snide language and anger towards Him is coming from.

Mockery my dear friend. It makes you and any look so trivial.

Again -- why do you truly reject Him?

Because the idea of a sky fairy is unbelievable.

Is it because you don't like the idea of living a live away from the sins you've come to enjoy?

Don't take medicine for a disease you don't have.

Is it because you have a misunderstanding about what Christian Life is really supposed to be about?

33,000 choices or eat this steak? Sorry, you lose to steak.

Is it because you just want to be rebellious?

How many people have you killed?

Is it because you just simply hate those who call themselves Christian?

Why would I hate someone who calls themselves Christian? I come from a Christian family.

I'm trying to understand here...

You don't do it very well.

 

[Xalith]

Ends? You know we're a sphere right?

Ever hear of a figure of speech? How about this... "the ends of the continents"? Does that work better for you? (Note: In translations, English has a word for "ground" and "Planet" and they can both be "Earth").

How many people have you killed?

What does that have to do with anything?

Mockery my dear friend. It makes you and any look so trivial.

Mockery? I'm not getting where you're saying I'm mocking anybody.

Why was hell created?

I'll leave off with this, and I'll explain it thusly:

Imagine a person who is out there alone in a huge vast plain. Nothing but rolling plains as far as the eye can see. Let's imagine this person has magical powers, and manages to make a small species of animal, let's say, I don't know, cats. This person lives inside a house they built for themselves, and it is absolutely spotless and clean in every imaginable respect.

This person makes a yard for said cats outside of the house, because the person was lonely and they like to watch the cats at play in the yard. Let's say the person has also made, I don't know, small birds that fly about the house maintaining the house for him.

One day, one of the birds (Satan) decides he's jealous of the man, and decides to rebel. The man angrily throws the bird and a third of all the birds, the ones who followed the first, out of the house and forbids them to enter into the house, ever again.

The bird named Satan is angry with the man, beyond rage and decides that from now until Eternity, he is going to have his revenge against the man. So he flies out to the yard where the cats are at play, and starts corrupting the cats, one by one. It was the man's original plan, that when the cats fully grow up, that they'd be allowed into the guy's huge mansion, but they can't come into the mansion until this happens.

But now that the cats are corrupt, let's say the birds put mud all through their fur and made them act rowdy, and gave them foul food so that they go puking every now and then.

The Man doesn't want these things in his perfect pristine mansion; they'll defecate on the floor, they'll puke everywhere, and they're covered in mud.

The man then places a basin of water in the cat's yard, and says "Jump in this basin of water, and stay away from mud and I'll let you in the house when you grow up". Most of the cats refuse to jump in the basin of water (cats hate water, right?). A few do, but most don't.

Those who don't, the man takes and tosses them out because he can't have them in his house, and they have grown past the yard, he needs to move them to make room for new kittens. So he takes them to the edges of his property, and releases them outside the fence. Those who jumped in the basin, are washed of their mud and display their obedience. These cats, he washes the rest of the way, and welcomes into the house.

Those outside the fence... they get lonely, they have no food, and they are forever separated from their maker. The man is sad over the fact, but all they had to do was jump in the basin... but they refused, and as such, don't love the man, and don't want to be with the man.

Is he supposed to force them to go into the house anyways, filthy as they are, disobedient as they are? They don't love the man, so why would they want to go into the man's house?

Now, if we go back to Reality...

Why would God bring an unbeliever into Heaven? Heaven is a spotless place, without sin, without pain, without death, without evil. Those who are disobedient to God don't Love God, they don't desire God, and would have no place being with God.

Let me ask you a question...

Suppose for a second Heaven is real and you were going there, and let's say God asked you, "What do you want to have in Heaven?"

What would your response be?

 

[Skavau]

Imagine a person who is out there alone in a huge vast plain. Nothing but rolling plains as far as the eye can see. Let's imagine this person has magical powers, and manages to make a small species of animal, let's say, I don't know, cats. This person lives inside a house they built for themselves, and it is absolutely spotless and clean in every imaginable respect.

This person makes a yard for said cats outside of the house, because the person was lonely and they like to watch the cats at play in the yard. Let's say the person has also made, I don't know, small birds that fly about the house maintaining the house for him.

One day, one of the birds (Satan) decides he's jealous of the man, and decides to rebel. The man angrily throws the bird and a third of all the birds, the ones who followed the first, out of the house and forbids them to enter into the house, ever again.

Why did the man angrily throw out a third of the birds for the act of one bird?

The bird named Satan is angry with the man, beyond rage and decides that from now until Eternity, he is going to have his revenge against the man. So he flies out to the yard where the cats are at play, and starts corrupting the cats, one by one. It was the man's original plan, that when the cats fully grow up, that they'd be allowed into the guy's huge mansion, but they can't come into the mansion until this happens.

Why does the man (God) let the bird corrupt the cats?

But now that the cats are corrupt, let's say the birds put mud all through their fur and made them act rowdy, and gave them foul food so that they go puking every now and then.

The Man doesn't want these things in his perfect pristine mansion; they'll defecate on the floor, they'll puke everywhere, and they're covered in mud.

The man then places a basin of water in the cat's yard, and says "Jump in this basin of water, and stay away from mud and I'll let you in the house when you grow up". Most of the cats refuse to jump in the basin of water (cats hate water, right?). A few do, but most don't.

If you're trying to be accurate to reality here you'd have to note that most of the cats are unaware of the basin of water, or believe that another basin will clean them.

Those who don't, the man takes and tosses them out because he can't have them in his house, and they have grown past the yard, he needs to move them to make room for new kittens. So he takes them to the edges of his property, and releases them outside the fence. Those who jumped in the basin, are washed of their mud and display their obedience. These cats, he washes the rest of the way, and welcomes into the house.

Your analogy has broken down. God doesn't just exile people who aren't saved. According to you God tortures us for not being saved.

Those outside the fence... they get lonely, they have no food, and they are forever separated from their maker. The man is sad over the fact, but all they had to do was jump in the basin... but they refused, and as such, don't love the man, and don't want to be with the man.

If you're trying to be accurate then the exiled cats likely don't know that their maker exists. They were 'corrupted' without any knowledge of said maker.

Why would God bring an unbeliever into Heaven? Heaven is a spotless place, without sin, without pain, without death, without evil. Those who are disobedient to God don't Love God, they don't desire God, and would have no place being with God.

No-one's asking for heaven. We're saying that we do not deserved to be tortured for eternity.

Also it is obvious nonsense to assume that everyone who does not believe in God somehow would not believe in God if they were convinced. Your analogy does not take into account Muslims, Sikhs, Baha'i, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Shinto etc.

 

[GillDouglas]

You've missed my point entirely. Non-Christians, from their perspective, have no reason to believe Christianity is true. They do not believe in heaven, or hell, or God, or vicarious redemption and many even believe a different religious philosophy. Why if they die do they deserve to be tortured for eternity? For being wrong? For being imperfect? How can you justify this?

It's not my place to justify God's plan. But you missed my original point. If Non-Christians, from their perspective, have no reason to believe Christianity is true and they do not believe in heaven, or hell, or God, or vicarious redemption. Why concern yourselves with what we believe to be true when one dies? If your way of thinking is true, wouldn't everyone be just fine or whatever it is you believe happens after death?

The self-loathing of humanity and this life is one the abhorrent traits of many Christians that I find thoroughly off-putting. Life means nothing to you. This is just a staging ground.

So you're pro-life then? That's good! So am I.

So how is that ethical? Why is moral for people who can't garner enough faith, can't believe in Christianity or have faith elsewhere to be tortured for eternity?

Most people don't believe that this "free gift" exists.

God created us to have a relationship with Him for eternity. If you rejected your earthly father can you expect him to still give you all the things you think you deserve for a 'comfortable' life?

Most people are wrong about a lot of things.

 

[Xalith]

Why did the man angrily throw out a third of the birds for the act of one bird?

Because that third of the birds were aiding and abetting, and were allies with the one who turned evil.

Why does the man (God) let the bird corrupt the cats?

Perhaps he wants to test the cats to see what they will do? Perhaps he knows that the cats who overcome the trials will be his absolute best friends?

Your analogy has broken down. God doesn't just exile people who aren't saved. According to you God tortures us for not being saved.

A lot of people will tell you that Hell is a place of torture... and you use the word torture a lot.

The only person to speak about End Times Hell (which is not the same as Hell before the End Times!), speaks of the "Outer Darkness", and "Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth" and it is once referred to as "A Lake of Fire".

Some preachers believe that God Himself doesn't directly torture people, it is merely the separation from God that does that. A lot of Christians talk about a "God-Shaped Hole" that every man and woman were designed with, and the longer we're away from Him, the more we turn to the World to fill that hole, but nothing in this world could ever do it effectively. That's why a lot of unbelievers are constantly twitchy and itchy, going this way and that, looking for that something to scratch the itch they know they have, but can't find or get.

It varies from person to person, some people are always moving around between homes, some are buying new cars constantly, some are constantly going from job to job. Others yet, the Bible talks about "seared consciences" who are more comfortable living in the world.

Either way, Hell is more about being separated from God and the Life that He gives. In the analogy I told above.. the cats in the wild are lonely because they were given regular food and water from the Man, and they end up wandering aimlessly among the vast rolling empty plains.

If you're trying to be accurate then the exiled cats likely don't know that their maker exists. They were 'corrupted' without any knowledge of said maker.

Again, most people believe in some sort of divine being. Surely you don't think this is mere coincidence? There are people who lived in isolation who believe there's a God out there somewhere. It comes back to that "God-Shaped Hole" that people talk about. We were designed with it, so that we might seek Him naturally. Of course, Satan steps in, and creates a bunch of false religions to throw the vast majority off track. But like anything Satan creates, it will 1). Lead people away from God, and 2). Deny Christ, because that's He's the singular way to find God, and 3). Be mostly truthful, but have a lie hidden in there somewhere.

It is a common saying that Satan is usually 99% truth and 1% lie. The 1% lie is what kills you.

No-one's asking for heaven. We're saying that we do not deserved to be tortured for eternity.

Could you please answer the question, anyways? I'm curious as to what you'd ask for, if you could ask for anything in such an environment.

Also it is obvious nonsense to assume that everyone who does not believe in God somehow would not believe in God if they were convinced. Your analogy does not take into account Muslims, Sikhs, Baha'i, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Shinto etc.

It does, actually. In my analogy, assume the Evil Bird (Satan) convinces the cats that the Basin of Water is bad and that rolling around on the ground, rubbing up against the fences, etc can cleanse the mud and make them acceptable to the man instead.

That's basically what Satan does in real life today through false religions (refer to that video I posted above, where he easily proves the biggest few wrong in just a few minutes).

 

[Skavau]

It's not my place to justify God's plan. But you missed my original point. If Non-Christians, from their perspective, have no reason to believe Christianity is true and they do not believe in heaven, or hell, or God, or vicarious redemption. Why concern yourselves with what we believe to be true when one dies? If your way of thinking is true, wouldn't everyone be just fine or whatever it is you believe happens after death?

I've already answered that. Because I believe it to be disturbing that there are people, like you, that are apparently in favour of torturing most of the human population for not believing in God. You may not want it to happen but you endorse such a circumstance as just. That is disturbing to me.

Would you be comfortable with someone who told you that if you die tomorrow then you deserve to be tortured?

So you're pro-life then? That's good! So am I.

No you're not. You just called it as a good thing that your mother moved on from this "broken world".

God created us to have a relationship with Him for eternity. If you rejected your earthly father can you expect him to still give you all the things you think you deserve for a 'comfortable' life?

I would not expect my earthly father to torture me. If I rejected my father, now, it wouldn't give him the right to come to my house, take all my belongings and torture me. That would be are more appropriate analogy.

In any case if I genuinely did not know who my father was how would it be logical for him to hold that against me?

Most people are wrong about a lot of things.

None of them deserve to be tortured for that.

 

[Skavau]

Because that third of the birds were aiding and abetting, and were allies with the one who turned evil.

You did not specify that part.

Perhaps he wants to test the cats to see what they will do? Perhaps he knows that the cats who overcome the trials will be his absolute best friends?

That's not moral. That's treating the cats as guinea pigs. Testing their reactions and exiling them if they don't satisfy is unstated criterion.

A lot of people will tell you that Hell is a place of torture... and you use the word torture a lot.

Yes I do.

The only person to speak about End Times Hell (which is not the same as Hell before the End Times!), speaks of the "Outer Darkness", and "Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth" and it is once referred to as "A Lake of Fire".

Some preachers believe that God Himself doesn't directly torture people, it is merely the separation from God that does that. A lot of Christians talk about a "God-Shaped Hole" that every man and woman were designed with, and the longer we're away from Him, the more we turn to the World to fill that hole, but nothing in this world could ever do it effectively. That's why a lot of unbelievers are constantly twitchy and itchy, going this way and that, looking for that something to scratch the itch they know they have, but can't find or get.

Whether or not God directly or indirectly tortures is irrelevant. Whether or not God directly sends people there personally is irrelevant. Whether or not the torture is more akin to psychological torment or anguish is irrelevant. God allows billions of people to go to a realm of suffering simply for the crime of being born human.

Again, most people believe in some sort of divine being. Surely you don't think this is mere coincidence?

No, I don't yet that most people do believe in a divine being isn't good enough for God. No, according to you they must believe specifically in him and no-one else.

There are people who lived in isolation who believe there's a God out there somewhere. It comes back to that "God-Shaped Hole" that people talk about. We were designed with it, so that we might seek Him naturally. Of course, Satan steps in, and creates a bunch of false religions to throw the vast majority off track. But like anything Satan creates, it will 1). Lead people away from God, and 2). Deny Christ, because that's He's the singular way to find God, and 3). Be mostly truthful, but have a lie hidden in there somewhere.

Then God could take some of the responsibility for allowing Satan to have such an impact on humanity.

God could always of course not set out the circumstances for entering hell to be so wide, so easy and issue a pardon and allow people regardless of their religious beliefs to avoid hell.

It is a common saying that Satan is usually 99% truth and 1% lie. The 1% lie is what kills you.

Why does God make it so easy to enter hell?

Could you please answer the question, anyways? I'm curious as to what you'd ask for, if you could ask for anything in such an environment.

To be allowed to say "Non Serviam" without being tortured for it. That's all.

It does, actually. In my analogy, assume the Evil Bird (Satan) convinces the cats that the Basin of Water is bad and that rolling around on the ground, rubbing up against the fences, etc can cleanse the mud and make them acceptable to the man instead.

So why should the cat be punished simply for being wrong? Their intentions are good.

 

[katerinah1947]

I deny Jesus as a savior of mankind, but I do think historically speaking, he was a real person. I find it extremely unlikely there is a God of any kind, even more unlikely a god that actually "loves" his creation and for some reason cares so much if people love him back. And to make it clear too, I don't believe in the devil either. I'm an honest and caring person, I've never done an "evil" thing my entire life. With that all said, would I go to hell?

Hi Dear,
Really it makes no difference now, for you have said these words: "I'm an honest and caring person, I've never done an "evil" thing in my entire life. ", and I have checked and you are no Troll.
I will reveal this to you, and you probably cannot believe it, yet it is so. I am a mystic to God, and in a way that I am told has no words. I am not a mystic at all like you hear of or think of when that word is used. Objectively, Two Psychiatrists and one Ph.D. psychologist and some more people have had to convince me of this.
Now, you are going to heaven. It is set for you. In my world this is what happened to you, just a bit ago. God had me read your site, and then had me put in the work, for Him and really by Him, to make sure you go to heaven when you die.
I did ask Him, when the thought came to do this for you. I said to Him "If......then." The then happened, so I did my part. You by the way, are not the first person, who God sent me in on like this. You are the second, that I know of. The first one I had much more time with, and wondered just why God had sent me to him to put the work in for him also. I soon learned. To him, he couldn't even imagine anyone being dishonest, and he also was pretty sure God was not provable. It is his attitude, that God respected loved and honored.
I say, without knowing you more, you and that other man are the same.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[GoldenBoy89]

God didn't create us to fail. God didn't create us to fall short of His expectations. We weren't "born sick and ordered to be well".

God created Adam and Eve to be perfect, "in His image"

Were they perfect when He created them and then somehow lost their perfection?

. This included a free will. God gave Adam one single commandment: "Do not eat the Forbidden Fruit of the Knowledge of Good & Evil".

Well, so much for perfection...

Satan, who existed before Adam, enticed Eve to break the Commandment,

One minor detail God must have overlooked...

and then Eve convinced Adam to do the same, an in doing so, bestowed themselves with the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Of course, the woman messed things up... What more could I expect from an old book?

God then pronounced a curse on the Earth, the curse of Death, and ever since, the Sin Nature is passed down from Parents to Offspring, for the rest of human history.

He couldn't just forgive them? I mean... It was one mistake and it wasn't even their fault, really. They were duped by the talking snake. If you ask me, it sounds like they were set up by God and the snake was in on it too. Those two are probably working together against us.

However, even though He cursed the Earth, He still loved his creation.

But not enough to forgive.

He gave Commandments unto Moses (Mosaic Law) of things they could do to please Him, and to atone for the Sin Nature they inherited from Adam and Eve's transgression of eating of the forbidden fruit.

That He set up for them to eat. Another thing, why not bring a savior in right away? Why did He wait so long to bring in Jesus?

However, He did so to teach us that Laws and Works can't save us. It didn't take long for Israel, His chosen people, to backslide and debase themselves with a multitude of sins.

And He didn't see this coming? Again, why wait for it to happen? This is a very shortsighted being you're describing here.

God eventually destroyed most of Israel, saved a remnant of the people, and gave them every opportunity to repent and turn back towards Him. A few did.

Awhile later, he sent Jesus Christ to the earth, the Son in human flesh, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, and to establish a New Covenant. God Knows that Man cannot be Holy on their own. It is impossible -- all mankind is corrupted with sin (thanks to Adam and Eve).

Thanks guys. Way to screw over the entire human race and mess up all of creation. Even though we all know they were deceived, that's still their fault somehow.

God didn't create this sin, Satan did.

Where did Satan come from? Was he not created by God?

After showing us why we needed a savior (the fact that our Sin Nature inherently tells us to rebel against laws, therefore making laws is the wrong thing to do), He sent the Savior, so that we could have THE easiest way to find Him in Heaven after our Earthly life is done.

So easy, it took Him a thousand years to figure it out!

He made it so ridiculously easy... you just accept Christ, Repent for your sin, and have faith that He will wash all of your sins away and all will be forgiven.

Awesome. I just have to give up my intellectual integrity and lie to myself so I can be saved. Hallelujah!

That's all you need to do. Believe He died on the cross as the Perfect Sacrifice for our Sin, and Repent for said Sin, and He will take care of the rest. He'll send the Holy Spirit to dwell within you, which will act as your guide and comforter, which will justify you and save you from His judgment, and over time, the Holy Spirit will sanctify you, making you more and more like Him.

And why do I want any of this?

The whole thing about Christ is the idea of cleansing ourselves from the Sin Nature that we all have from birth. God didn't create this Sin Nature; He wants to save us from it. However, He also wants all mankind to have free will, to choose their own destiny.

Quite the pickle He's in. How ever would an infinitely able being resolve this?

Those who choose to keep their Sin Nature will reap the "rewards" that brings -- an Eternal separation from God in the "Outer Darkness" where there will be "Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth", the very same place Satan and all of the Demons will eventually end up.

Why? Why must it be that way? That seems so utterly pointless, petty, evil, and thoughtless that I don't even want to worship or get to know such a being who would damn His creation to their worst fears for ever and ever because they don't believe that an invisible man exists. What a terrible, horrible doctrine to accept as reality.

It isn't "He made us sick and orders us to be well", it is more like "He made us perfect, Satan corrupted us, He wants to heal us, and He gave us an easy remedy, but most don't want to believe in something so simple so they refuse to take the said Remedy".

It isn't so much "I don't want to take the remedy." As it is "I don't think this remedy these people are offering is going to solve any problems in the afterlife because I don't believe there is any afterlife."

 

[Lukaris]

I deny Jesus as a savior of mankind, but I do think historically speaking, he was a real person. I find it extremely unlikely there is a God of any kind, even more unlikely a god that actually "loves" his creation and for some reason cares so much if people love him back. And to make it clear too, I don't believe in the devil either. I'm an honest and caring person, I've never done an "evil" thing my entire life. With that all said, would I go to hell?

John 5:26-30 New King James Version (NKJV)

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

 

[znr]

Oh gawd, not another one of these threads.

 

[Skavau]

Oh gawd, not another one of these threads.

I'd say the contentious nature of it makes a pretty big block in preventing people from being Christians. It is a topic that will always resurface.