If everyone's saved, what's the point of being a Christian?

[Hmm]

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the older brother was annoyed that his younger brother was welcomed back by his father. This seems to make some sense because after all he had been the dutiful son and it must have seemed that his loyalty meant nothing to his dad.

But it also feels that this bitterness must be wrong somehow. Can bitterness and envy ever be right? So is not the meaning that the older brother's reaction was wrong and that he should have wanted what his father wanted? His human wanted his son back no matter he had done so isn't the lesson for us that we should try to see salvation as God does, that He wants to save all His children and He does not have favourites? Kim Jong Un may favour his acolytes but God doesn't. He wants us all to live life in all it's fullness and so you'd think the last thing He wants is that we become envious and bitter like the older brother.

Team Hell seems to get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the thought "I'm special and that's why God is saving me". This is shown here on CF by the number of times the question "What's the point of being a Christian if everyone's saved?" is asked. Exclusivity seems to be an essential part of their faith.

But if we see things as God sees them, we are all His children and as the Good Shepherd He doesn't give up on any one of His lost sheep and acts eternally until they are found.

Instead of resenting our Father's feelings for the prodigals amongst us and feeling under-appreciated and sorry for ourselves should we not want what makes Him happy, rather than what makes us happy? We may be happy if our father kicks the prodigal into touch and disinherits him but shouldn't we try to get out of God's way and let Him be a loving Father to all His children? And stop trying to redefine Him as someone who would rather torture a prodigal rather than rescuing them. It's not about what we want but about what God wants.

 

[Der Alte]

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the older brother was annoyed that his younger brother was welcomed back by his father. This seems to make some sense because after all he had been the dutiful son and it must have seemed that his loyalty meant nothing to his dad.
But it also feels that this bitterness must be wrong somehow. Can bitterness and envy ever be right? So is not the meaning that the older brother's reaction was wrong and that he should have wanted what his father wanted? His human wanted his son back no matter he had done so isn't the lesson for us that we should try to see salvation as God does, that He wants to save all His children and He does not have favourites? Kim Jong Un may favour his acolytes but God doesn't. He wants us all to live life in all it's fullness and so you'd think the last thing He wants is that we become envious and bitter like the older brother.
Team Hell seems to get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the thought "I'm special and that's why God is saving me". This is shown here on CF by the number of times the question "What's the point of being a Christian if everyone's saved?" is asked. Exclusivity seems to be an essential part of their faith.
But if we see things as God sees them, we are all His children and as the Good Shepherd He doesn't give up on any one of His lost sheep and acts eternally until they are found.
Instead of resenting our Father's feelings for the prodigals amongst us and feeling under-appreciated and sorry for ourselves should we not want what makes Him happy, rather than what makes us happy? We may be happy if our father kicks the prodigal into touch and disinherits him but shouldn't we try to get out of God's way and let Him be a loving Father to all His children? And stop trying to redefine Him as someone who would rather torture a prodigal rather than rescuing them. It's not about what we want but about what God wants.

A bunch of biased rubbish you don't know what anybody's motivation is.

 

[Hmm]

A bunch of biased rubbish you don't know what anybody's motivation is.

Helpful.

I'll try to post a bunch of unbiased rubbish in future if that will help.

 

[fhansen]

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the older brother was annoyed that his younger brother was welcomed back by his father. This seems to make some sense because after all he had been the dutiful son and it must have seemed that his loyalty meant nothing to his dad.

But it also feels that this bitterness must be wrong somehow. Can bitterness and envy ever be right? So is not the meaning that the older brother's reaction was wrong and that he should have wanted what his father wanted? His human wanted his son back no matter he had done so isn't the lesson for us that we should try to see salvation as God does, that He wants to save all His children and He does not have favourites? Kim Jong Un may favour his acolytes but God doesn't. He wants us all to live life in all it's fullness and so you'd think the last thing He wants is that we become envious and bitter like the older brother.

Team Hell seems to get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the thought "I'm special and that's why God is saving me". This is shown here on CF by the number of times the question "What's the point of being a Christian if everyone's saved?" is asked. Exclusivity seems to be an essential part of their faith.

But if we see things as God sees them, we are all His children and as the Good Shepherd He doesn't give up on any one of His lost sheep and acts eternally until they are found.

Instead of resenting our Father's feelings for the prodigals amongst us and feeling under-appreciated and sorry for ourselves should we not want what makes Him happy, rather than what makes us happy? We may be happy if our father kicks the prodigal into touch and disinherits him but shouldn't we try to get out of God's way and let Him be a loving Father to all His children? And stop trying to redefine Him as someone who would rather torture a prodigal rather than rescuing them. It's not about what we want but about what God wants.

What we know is that the prodigal returned. We don’t know if all will do so. And, yes, priggishness can be a quite common and ugly quality among believers.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Team Hell seems to get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the thought "I'm special and that's why God is saving me". This is shown here on CF by the number of times the question "What's the point of being a Christian if everyone's saved?" is asked. Exclusivity seems to be an essential part of their faith.

I’m not quite sure who this member of “Team Hell” who also asks “what’s the point of being a Christian” might be… do you have any example posts as reference?

When I attend the “Team Hell” clubhouse meetings - I am their Treasurer after all - I see a lot of Evangelicals, Reformed, Calvinists, even the occasional RCs and EOs that we haven’t rooted out and excluded yet. None of these folks come within a country mile of “what’s the point of being a Christian”.

 

[Der Alte]

Helpful.
I'll try to post a bunch of unbiased rubbish in future if that will help.

Please don't do that. If you post something rational and reasonable, I might go into cardiac arrest. My picture over there <= is me at age 1 when FDR was president.

 

[Hmm]

What we know is that the prodigal returned. We don’t know if all will do so. And, yes, priggishness can be a quite common and ugly quality among believers.

I think that goes to the heart of the matter: Do "universalist" passages such as this suggest that all prodigals return, eventually?

"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
Romans 14:11"

And why wouldn't they? Like most I guess, every time I've strayed, it's been horrible.

 

[Hmm]

Please don't do that. If you post something rational and reasonable, I might go into cardiac arrest. My picture over there <= is me at age 1 when FDR was president.

Well, I don't want to cause a cardiac arrest or anything requiring an ECT ECG scan and I look forward to seeing your pic. at 100 years of age. Who will be president then? After Trump, the mind boggles.

 

[Hmm]

When I attend the “Team Hell” clubhouse meetings - I am their Treasurer after all

Are receipts up or down?

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the older brother was annoyed that his younger brother was welcomed back by his father. This seems to make some sense because after all he had been the dutiful son and it must have seemed that his loyalty meant nothing to his dad.

But it also feels that this bitterness must be wrong somehow. Can bitterness and envy ever be right? So is not the meaning that the older brother's reaction was wrong and that he should have wanted what his father wanted? His human wanted his son back no matter he had done so isn't the lesson for us that we should try to see salvation as God does, that He wants to save all His children and He does not have favourites? Kim Jong Un may favour his acolytes but God doesn't. He wants us all to live life in all it's fullness and so you'd think the last thing He wants is that we become envious and bitter like the older brother.

Team Hell seems to get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the thought "I'm special and that's why God is saving me". This is shown here on CF by the number of times the question "What's the point of being a Christian if everyone's saved?" is asked. Exclusivity seems to be an essential part of their faith.

But if we see things as God sees them, we are all His children and as the Good Shepherd He doesn't give up on any one of His lost sheep and acts eternally until they are found.

Instead of resenting our Father's feelings for the prodigals amongst us and feeling under-appreciated and sorry for ourselves should we not want what makes Him happy, rather than what makes us happy? We may be happy if our father kicks the prodigal into touch and disinherits him but shouldn't we try to get out of God's way and let Him be a loving Father to all His children? And stop trying to redefine Him as someone who would rather torture a prodigal rather than rescuing them. It's not about what we want but about what God wants.

I refute universalism quite frequently but I’ve never wanted anyone to burn in the lake of fire. It’s not a matter of what I want it’s a matter of what God said He would do regardless of what we want. My sister is an atheist, do you think I want her to be thrown into the lake of fire? Of course not I want her to repent before it’s too late. So when people start giving unbelievers a false sense of security that they don’t have to repent in this world and they will still be saved that greatly concerns me because it takes away the necessity to repent in this world and can ultimately result in their destruction. I want people to know the truth of God’s word so that they know the consequences that might urge them to reconsider and repent before it’s too late. That’s what loving Christians do.

EDIT: And it’s not ok for people to just believe whatever they want. Christianity is not a matter of “well I don’t like this so I’m not going to believe in it, I want to believe in this instead”. That’s not how Christianity works. There is only ONE TRUTH and it is NOT SUBJECTIVE. God gave us the scriptures so that we will know His expectations and know who He is and also so that we will know the consequences of our sins.

 

[Der Alte]

I think that goes to the heart of the matter: Do "universalist" passages such as this suggest that all prodigals return, eventually?
"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
Romans 14:11"
And why wouldn't they? Like most I guess, every time I've strayed, it's been horrible.

That is what many who reject God and Jesus will be doing when God makes them Jesus's footstool. It must be very important it is repeated seven times in the Bible. Maybe you have read it once or twice while you were searching for a UR verse?

1. Psalms 110:1
(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts 2:34-35
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
6. Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:13
(13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

 

[Der Alte]

See previous post #11, above.
In the same chapter where the writer of Hebrews said, "From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool."
He also wrote.

Hebrews 10:26-31
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite [insulted] unto the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
"Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.... The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ​

Does not sound like universal reconciliation to me.

 

[Petros2015]

I think that goes to the heart of the matter: Do "universalist" passages such as this suggest that all prodigals return, eventually?

"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
Romans 14:11"

Hmm. With a little more context... I don't think it suggests that all prodigals return, I think it suggests that all give an account of their time returned or not or back and forth to a God that they now understand as G-O-D. It's easy not to acknowledge God on Earth or to stand before a God who doesn't seem to be present. Impossible to do either in front of the judgement seat.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is what many who reject God and Jesus will be doing when God makes them Jesus's footstool. It must be very important it is repeated seven times in the Bible. Maybe you have read it once or twice while you were searching for a UR verse?

1. Psalms 110:1
(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts 2:34-35
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
6. Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:13
(13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

Amen 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 is also evidence to support this. Personally I think it’s likely that those who are thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed leaving only those who are in subjection to Him left. Since this takes place after Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. I believe that Hades refers to the wicked and unrepentant residing in Hades. So naturally if the unrepentant are destroyed in the lake of fire then only those who are in subjection to God will remain.

“For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭25‬-‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So this is a reference to what will take place after the unrepentant and death is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20.

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Der Alte]

Amen 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 is also evidence to support this. Personally I think it’s likely that those who are thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed leaving only those who are in subjection to Him left. Since this takes place after Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. I believe that Hades refers to the wicked and unrepentant residing in Hades. So naturally if the unrepentant are destroyed in the lake of fire then only those who are in subjection to God will remain.
“For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭25‬-‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
So this is a reference to what will take place after the unrepentant and death is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20.
“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I have a different view of "hell and death"
Death is the point in time end of life. It has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. "Hell" is either the grave or the place of punishment. If "the grave," they will be empty. Empty can't be thrown anywhere.
There is a "Death and hell" which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell can be literally thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

 

[Andrewn]

It really is straight forward:

Joh 11:25 Jesus then said to her,

“I am the resurrection and the life.
Whoever believes in me,
even though he dies, will live,
26 and everyone who lives
and believes in me
will never die.
Do you believe this?”

According to Cambridge Commentary, ‘He that believeth in Me, even if he shall have died (physically), shall live (eternally). And every one that liveth (physically) and believeth in Me, shall never die (eternally).’

It seems that one can come to believe _after_ physical death. There is no salvation except through the Lord Jesus:

John 14:6. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Not all humans are God's children. To become a child of God a person must be born again. To be born again a person must meet the only condition God has given to receive His (God's) free gift of Eternal Life and that is to believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have a different view of "hell and death"
Death is the point in time end of life. It has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. "Hell" is either the grave or the place of punishment. If "the grave," they will be empty. Empty can't be thrown anywhere.
There is a "Death and hell" which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell can be literally thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

I think Hell is, in most cases, an inaccurate translation of Hades, the place of torment in Sheol where the wicked go after they die. I believe that Hell is a different place than Hades and that the lake of fire is in Hell because Gehenna (the metaphorical name for Hell) is often referred to as the place of torment in eternal fire and destruction in the scriptures as opposed to Hades which is the temporary place of torment.

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9‬:‭43‬-‭48‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Our body & soul are not destroyed in Hades since Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. If death was riding upon the horse and brought death to those whom he encountered then Hades would naturally follow death in the sense that after the people died they would then go to Hades. I see that some translations say that “authority was given to THEM” but the same word that is translated to “them” is also used in the same verse translated as “him”. So I’m not convinced that Hades refers to an actual being. Outside of Revelation every use of the word Hades is always in reference to a place not a being. In Revelation 1:18 Jesus says that He has the keys to death and Hades. So I don’t think that Hades is an actual being but instead a place that follows death for the wicked.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I think that goes to the heart of the matter: Do "universalist" passages such as this suggest that all prodigals return, eventually?

"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
Romans 14:11"

And why wouldn't they? Like most I guess, every time I've strayed, it's been horrible.

Thank you for clarifying. This is about Universalism. A fringe doctrine at best, heretical at worst. The prodigal son represents the repentant sinner. That is all.
Blessings.

 

[Der Alte]

I think Hell is, in most cases, an inaccurate translation of Hades, the place of torment in Sheol where the wicked go after they die. I believe that Hell is a different place than Hades and that the lake of fire is in Hell because Gehenna (the metaphorical name for Hell) is often referred to as the place of torment in eternal fire and destruction in the scriptures as opposed to Hades which is the temporary place of torment.
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9‬:‭43‬-‭48‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
Our body & soul are not destroyed in Hades since Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. If death was riding upon the horse and brought death to those whom he encountered then Hades would naturally follow death in the sense that after the people died they would then go to Hades. I see that some translations say that “authority was given to THEM” but the same word that is translated to “them” is also used in the same verse translated as “him”. So I’m not convinced that Hades refers to an actual being. Outside of Revelation every use of the word Hades is always in reference to a place not a being. In Revelation 1:18 Jesus says that He has the keys to death and Hades. So I don’t think that Hades is an actual being but instead a place that follows death for the wicked.

There is an actual hell. The Jews called it both "sheol" and "Gehinnom" in the OT.. It was written as "hades" and "Gehenna" in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
That being said there was a sentient being called "hell" which followed the angel of death. Rev 6:8
The word translated as "power" in Rev 6:8

ἐξουσία exousia ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.​