I want to see timeline charts.....

[Douggg]

When the time clock begins in 457 BC (the time that the beginning of the building begins - Ezra 7:1-27).....69 weeks (483 years) brings the year to 27 AD. Are you sure you want to cut off those years (27 AD - 34 AD)?

457 BC + 483 years (69 weeks) = 27 AD

Using a calendar is a way which Christian apologists use to prove their point of Jesus being the messiah. Up to the point which Jesus was crucified.

We don't need to use a calendar here for that purpose - because we all believe in Jesus and that he was crucified (and rose from being dead).

27 AD to 34 AD is not for proving that Jesus was the messiah. It is mathematical fitting of the calendar, used by them who hold the view of the 70th week, or half thereof, being already fulfilled.

An apologist would not use 27AD to 34AD, because the opposition would quickly point out that the daily sacrifice continued decades after Jesus's death and resurrection.
_______________________________________________________

IF you want to employ 27 AD as the year Jesus rode into Jerusalem, on Palms Sunday, hailed as the messiah. And 4 days later, all in 27 AD, was crucified. I don't see any thing wrong with the concept.

 

[Douggg]

This is our basic disagreement.
I stand by the sequence as Written in Revelation; All the Seals first, then after the Temple is desecrated by the AC sitting in it AND his statue placed there, will commence the 1260 day period of the Great Trib, then Jesus will Return.
Matthew 24:29 refers to the just happened GT. Revelation 15:1

You don't see how there must be some kind of dramatic event to enable the establishment of a One World Govt, that will soon be ruled by a dictator.
Tis rather obvious that now, it won't be any leader of the nearly defunct European Union. Daniel 7:23 proves its worldwide rule.

So your 'chart' starts out wrong. It talks about a false king of Jewish Israel; that is never prophesied and the Jesus hating Jews are all gone as Jeremiah 12:14 and many other verses tell us.
Then you say there will be a 'rapture' in there somewhere. This idea is totally off the Biblical rails. It is a fable, a Satanic lie that is a serious indictment against those who teach it.
No much else is right either; but Jesus will Return and destroy the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word, THAT will happen!

Well, you don't have a chart, and I do.

And the narrative you have leaves out Matthew 24:29. And a lot of other important events as well.

 

[mkgal1]

Using a calendar is a way which Christian apologists use to prove their point of Jesus being the messiah. Up to the point which Jesus was crucified.

27 AD to 34 AD is not for proving that Jesus was the messiah. It is mathematical fitting of the calendar, used by them who hold the view of the 70th week, or half thereof, being already fulfilled.

An apologist would not use 27AD to 34AD, because the opposition would quickly point out that the daily sacrifice continued decades after Jesus's death and resurrection.

IF you want to employ 27 AD as the year Jesus rode into Jerusalem, on Palms Sunday, hailed as the messiah. And 4 days later, all in 27 AD, was crucified. I don't see any thing wrong with the concept.

Jesus began His ministry in 27 AD and was crucified in 30 AD (3.5 years later - in the middle of the seven years). Apologists DO use those years - for good reason.

He put an end to God's acceptance of sacrifices - and put an end to the annual Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement sacrifices for good, because those could no longer be performed with the torn curtain that occurred on the day of the Cross.

 

[mkgal1]

Using a calendar is a way which Christian apologists use to prove their point of Jesus being the messiah. Up to the point which Jesus was crucified.

Correct, that the calendar is a way to prove the point of Jesus as the Messiah. That's why I have such an issue with the belief of a gap in Daniel's timeline. It cuts off the entire ministry of Jesus.

Can you show me any apologist that has Jesus's birth different than 6 to 4 BC? Because that is the only way a gap would even work (but that just creates other problems).

 

[mkgal1]

IF you want to employ 27 AD as the year Jesus rode into Jerusalem, on Palms Sunday, hailed as the messiah. And 4 days later, all in 27 AD, was crucified. I don't see any thing wrong with the concept.

I don't understand the devotion to this idea?

Most apologists have Jesus's death on the cross as 30 AD. In 27 AD, Jesus was only 30 years old and just beginning His ministry. But, even so, by cutting off the 70th week....you are stopping the clock in 27 AD, leaving His ministry of any variety unfulfilled.

Can you cite one historian that dates Jesus's death as 27 AD?

 

[Douggg]

I don't understand the devotion to this idea?

Most apologists have Jesus's death on the cross as 30 AD. In 27 AD, Jesus was only 30 years old and just beginning His ministry. But, even so, by cutting off the 70th week....you are stopping the clock in 27 AD, leaving His ministry of any variety unfulfilled.

Can you cite one historian that dates Jesus's death as 27 AD?

You are basing 27 AD as being the end of the 483 years. I think you wrote this ....69 weeks (483 years) brings the year to 27 AD.

If you want to employ 27 AD (the end of the 483 years) as the year Jesus rode into Jerusalem, on Palms Sunday, hailed as the messiah. And 4 days later, all in 27 AD, was crucified. I don't see any thing wrong with the concept. I don't vouch for the accuracy of the calendar though.

I did not stop any clock 27 AD, then 28, 29, 30, 31.......all the way to today 2021 AD...and the clock is still ticking.

The length of Jesus's ministry is not a block of time in the Daniel 9:25-27 prophecy.

Jesus's anointing for his burial, from being cutoff, is the woman
in Mark 14:3-9.

8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.

9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

 

[Douggg]

He put an end to God's acceptance of sacrifices - and put an end to the annual Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement sacrifices for good, because those could no longer be performed with the torn curtain that occurred on the day of the Cross.

What makes you think that the curtain was not repaired?

 

[keras]

Well, you don't have a chart, and I do.

And the narrative you have leaves out Matthew 24:29. And a lot of other important events as well.

I shredded your 'chart'. It is full of error.
Has anyone ever said to you that it helped their understanding of the end times?
More like; helped their confusion.

I kept my timeline short, with all the major events listed. 40 scriptures support it.
Any details missed can be read by people in their own Bibles.

Why is Matthew 24:29 so important? It merely says that Jesus will Return AFTER the Great Tribulation.

 

[mkgal1]

You are basing 27 AD as being the end of the 483 years. I think you wrote this ....69 weeks (483 years) brings the year to 27 AD.

Not just me, this is the typical dating (including secular historical dating). The clock began with the rebuilding of the temple and the city - that, historically, is dated at 457 BC. Add 483 years to that, and you're at 27 AD. Show me one historian that allows for a 27 AD crucifixion date.

 

[Douggg]

I kept my timeline short, with all the major events listed. 40 scriptures support it.
Any details missed can be read by people in their own Bibles.

You missed stating when the Abomination of Desolation is setup to trigger the beginning of the Great Tribulation. (You actually described the Transgression of Desolation as what triggers the Great Tribulation in error).

You did not mention the person killed and brought back to life to become the beast - a major event.

 

[mkgal1]

I did not stop any clock 27 AD, then 28, 29, 30, 31.......all the way to today 2021 AD...and the clock is still ticking.

By saying the 70th week is left unfulfilled and that there's a gap between the 69th and 70th week - that is "stopping the clock". What would you call it?

 

[Douggg]

Not just me, this is the typical dating (including secular historical dating). The clock began with the rebuilding of the temple and the city - that, historically, is dated at 457 BC. Add 483 years to that, and you're at 27 AD. Show me one historian that allows for a 27 AD crucifixion date.

mkgal1, okay, you want to get into all kind of complications centered on calendars. Which I don't see any sense for.

...but you can go to this link.
Mathematical Bible Prophecy

- Add 7 + 62 weeks = 69 weeks of years

- Multiply 69 (weeks) x 7 (years) = 483 years (of lunar years, my comment)

- Multiply 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days

To convert the 173,880 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) ...

173,880 days ÷ 365.25 (days per year) = 476 yrs

Now take the 476 years in this prophecy and simply start counting from March 14, 445 B.C. (when the command to rebuild the city Jerusalem and its wall was given) and you end on the exact year (even the very day) Jesus (Yeshua) rode 'triumphantly' into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday), being praised as King and Messiah by thousands upon thousands of the Jewish people who had gathered from all over for the Passover Holidays. Honored, yet lowly, riding on a donkey - exactly as another prophet, the prophet Zechariah, said He would ...

"Rejoice greatly,

O daughter of Zion (Israel)!

Behold, your King (Messiah)

is coming to you;

He is just and having salvation,

yet He is lowly and riding on a donkey."

(Zechariah 9:9 ... written around 500 B.C.)

Thus, on the 10th day of Nisan ("Palm Sunday") 32 AD ... 476 years after the command was given to rebuild the city and its wall ... Jesus (Yeshua) made His famous "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey. It was the only day that He ever allowed Himself to be honored as Messiah or King (Mark 11:1-12) as the people of Israel cried out and sang "Hosanna to the Son of David (this is a Psalm of the Messiah), blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!" from Psalm 118 ... (and all this took place just a few days before He was "executed" exactly as Daniel's prophecy said He would!)
_________________________________________________

I said to early on in this discussion - that I did not want to get into calendar debates. Now you see why. It gets tedious and does not change that the messiah, Jesus, rode into Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah. And 4 days later was cutoff. Why can't we just go with that (in blue), without the calendar issues?

Jesus was not cutoff in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

By saying the 70th week is left unfulfilled and that there's a gap between the 69th and 70th week - that is "stopping the clock". What would you call it?

I would call it a gap between the 69 weeks (of years) and the 1week (of years).

Would you say the clock stopped ticking for the gap between Jesus's first coming and Jesus's second coming? I would not.

 

[mkgal1]

mkgal1, okay, you want to get into all kind of complications centered on calendars. Which I don't see any sense for.

No, I see no reason for going through converting the years into days and so on....all I asked for is:

Show me one historian that allows for a 27 AD crucifixion date (please cite your source).​

 

[mkgal1]

simply start counting from March 14, 445 B.C. (when the command to rebuild the city Jerusalem and its wall was given)

Where are you getting this date from? The date was 457 BC when the rebuilding of the temple and city began.

The calculations you've used are off by a total of 9 years (476 vs 483 and 2 years here). Does this information come from a Jewish source, by chance?

 

[mkgal1]

Why can't we just go with that (in blue), without the calendar issues?

Jesus was not cutoff in the middle of the 70th week.

Because we need the measurements of time in order to state accurately whether or not a specific time has passed.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus was not cutoff in the middle of the 70th week

This is an example of why a calendar is important.

He was. 30 AD.

Have you found a source that supports your earlier date for the Cross? Prior to 27 AD?

 

[mkgal1]

Would you say the clock stopped ticking for the gap between Jesus's first coming and Jesus's second coming? I would not.

I wasn't aware of a timeline relevant to the time between His first advent and His second coming?

 

[Douggg]

Where are you getting this date from? The date was 457 BC when the rebuilding of the temple and city began.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


It is not when the rebuilding of the city began, but when the command went forth to do so.

And of particular concern, there is apparently only one command that included the rebuilding of the city and its wall.



From that same link...

The Commandment ...

This prophecy of the coming Messiah is both remarkable and extremely precise. There were other orders to rebuild the Temple, but, there was only one commandment to restore Jerusalem and its wall. On March 14th, 445 BC, as confirmed by modern archaeology, King Artexerxes I of Persia issued the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and specifically included its wall (Nehemiah 2:2-9 records and details all the events surrounding the rebuilding of this wall.)

(As a note, in 2007 archeologists in Israel found, uncovered, and excavated this ancient wall, sometimes translated "moat," which Nehemiah rebuilt around Jerusalem.)
_______________________________________________

mkgal1, here is from Nehemiah 2: 8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

_________________________________________________

So 445 BC, is when to start adding time to.

 

[Douggg]

This is an example of why a calendar is important.

He was. 30 AD.

Have you found a source that supports your earlier date for the Cross? Prior to 27 AD?

View attachment 279557

I was not arguing for an earlier date that 27 AD for the cross. The argument is that 27 AD is not relevant to the prophecy of the arrival of the messiah into Jerusalem.

The date (year) for the cross is 32 AD.


In my post #135 this thread, from that link, it I cites Jesus arriving as the messiah on Psalm Sunday,"on the 10th day of Nisan ("Palm Sunday") 32 AD" and cutoff a few days later.

So 32 AD for the cross.

_______________________________________________

The 27 AD calendar date you are using is for the argument of Jesus's baptism by John event being the start of his ministry. The flaw with that argument is that there is nothing in Daniel 9:25 about the start or length of Jesus's ministry. Therefore, 27 AD is not relevant to the Daniel 9:25 prophecy.

And from 27 AD to the stoning of Stephen in 34 AD - is what your side is arguing is the confirming of covenant for 7 years, in Daniel 9:27. The gospel to the gentiles is also not part of the Daniel 9:24-25 prophecy.

Your chart has the cross on 31 AD (only one year difference from 32 AD). 31 AD if using your calendar system - would be the year the messiah arrived into Jerusalem. 4 days later was crucified.

Your chart, more readable...right click and choose "view image"