I want to see timeline charts.....

[Douggg]

Or it could be like Paul warned in Thess. when the man of sin sits on teh ark of the covenant mercy seat and declares Himself He is God! and maybe the statue the false prophet causes to come alive!

2Thessalonians2:3-4 is the transgression of desolation act. Whether the Antichrist sits on the ark or not - is not clear, because that would presume the ark will have been found and placed in the forthcoming temple. Or it might mean the Antichrist will sit on a bench where the ark would go, assuming it has not be found.

Either way, his act is not the abomination of desolation thing, something setup.

______________________________________________

I have been thinking carefully over Matthew 24:15.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

That does not necessarily mean inside the temple sanctuary building, but could be anywhere on the temple mount, on the temple grounds.

So the statue image of the beast, the abomination of desolation, could be placed on the temple grounds out in the open - where people will gather, and/or forced to gather, to worship it. Them who refuse to bow down will be killed. In similitude to the Nebuchadnezzar statue event.

Being out in the open would also explain how Satan, who will be incarnating the image after being cast down to earth, will be exposed to everyone at Jesus's return, Jesus standing on the mount of Olives, directly across from the temple mount. And the outer facade of the image is turned to ashes - exposing Satan to everyone in plain view there on the temple mount.

Fulfilling the Ezekiel 28:

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Douggg]

Straight out of Anderson and Schofields's playbook, but the 360-day year is a figment of their imagination. So, if you want to be a REAL non-dispensationalist, you need to follow real dates. Here they are on post #112 I want to see timeline charts.....

CG, the gregorian calendar was not developed accurately is the whole problem on both sides of our arguments.

No matter which base as the going forth of the command, Artaxeres in 445 BC or Artaxeres in 457 BC, if Jesus was crucificed/and rose from the dead at age 33, neither scenario works out of Jesus being born at the "0" starting of the gregorian calendar timeline.

Using the 483 years. Which some of those years, had 13 months, and the rest 12 months - which over the broad scheme of the 483 years - is still 483 years.

So we can go with the 483 years unit in adding to the base, either 445 BC or 457 BC.

445 BC + 483 years = 37/38 AD as the year of the cross
457 BC + 483 years = 26/27 AD as the year of the cross


__________________________________________
___

Sir Robert Anderson lived in the late 1800's. The gregorian calendar was developed at the time of Pope Gregory in the 1500's so we can't blame the in- accurate development of the Gregorian calendar on Sir Robert Anderson.

 

[Douggg]

@mkgal1

I changed my mind on the 476 years conversion of the 483 years, as being a necessity. In my post 144 of this thread.

It is not necessary to convert the 483 years, because some of those years would have had 13 months, and the rest 12 months - to get in line with the solar calendar.

That link did not take into account the 13 month adjustment years. They just treated every year as 360 days. Some of those years would have been 390 days. Thus, they made an error in their method of computation by treating all of the years as being 360 days long.

Overall as a unit - the 483 years is still 483 years.

__________________________________________________

I am going to make a correct chart of the 490 years and start a new thread. We are going to get to the bottom of this.

 

[mkgal1]

No matter which base as the going forth of the command, Artaxeres in 445 BC or Artaxeres in 457 BC, if Jesus was crucificed/and rose from the dead at age 33, neither scenario works out of Jesus being born at the "0" starting of the gregorian calendar timeline.

Using the 483 years. Which some of those years, had 13 months, and the rest 12 months - which over the broad scheme of the 483 years - is still 483 years.

So we can go with the 483 years unit in adding to the base, either 445 BC or 457 BC.

445 BC + 483 years = 37/38 AD as the year of the cross
457 BC + 483 years = 26/27 AD as the year of the cross

The trouble is......the year 26/27 AD doesn't identify the Cross.....the text says, "from the issuance of the decree until the Messiah" (Daniel 9:25). John the baptist said (on the day of Jesus' baptism.....believed to be in 26/27 AD), "Look....the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." (John 1:36). That was an important day and critical point of reference - that was the beginning of His public ministry (and Jesus was then of the age to teach with authority in the synagogues).

The ancient Jews weren't looking for a Cross.....they were anticipating their Messiah. John's entire ministry was to pave the way and prepare them for the coming - longed for and anticipated - Messiah.

Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,

Acts 10:37-38
You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.



​

 

[Douggg]

the Messiah

"the" Messiah is the King of Israel.

In John 12:12-15 Jesus entering Jerusalem is hailed as the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[BABerean2]

"the" Messiah is the King of Israel.

In John 12:12-15 Jesus entering Jerusalem is hailed as the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Messiah is the Son of God, as was announced by His Father at His baptism.


Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

.

 

[Douggg]

The Messiah is the Son of God, as was announced by His Father at His baptism.


Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

.

Jesus is the Son of God.

"the" messiah is the one God chooses to be the King of Israel during the messianic era of peace and safety when men will beat their swords into plowshares and will learn war no more.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus is the Son of God.

"the" messiah is the one God chooses to be the King of Israel during the messianic era of peace and safety when men will beat their swords into plowshares and will learn war no more.

If you are correct Peter was very confused on the Day of Pentecost.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


He was already both "Lord" (ruler), and "Christ" (Messiah) on the Day of Pentecost.

If you have to disagree with the word of God to make a man-made doctrine work, you may want to try something different.

Jesus Christ is both Lord, and Christ, now.
.

 

[mkgal1]

"the" Messiah is the King of Israel.

Jesus is the Son of God.

"the" messiah is the one God chooses to be the King of Israel during the messianic era of peace and safety when men will beat their swords into plowshares and will learn war no more.

There is no distinction. There is no other "coming Messiah"......as Daniel 9 states one of the aspects of that prophecy was to "seal up vision and prophecy". If ALL hasn't been fulfilled in Daniel 9 - then it'd be questionable whether salvation has been completed (because we see in several passages that the followers of Jesus in the first century were waiting for salvation to be completed). To "seal up" means to fulfill....to complete (as per all the commentaries I've read).

Daniel 9:24 ~ “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.

​

 

[mkgal1]

"the" Messiah is the King of Israel.

In John 12:12-15 Jesus entering Jerusalem is hailed as the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Who was John the baptist? Was he NOT Jewish? Notice his name over to the lower right corner?

 

[Douggg]

There is no distinction. There is no other "coming Messiah"

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[mkgal1]

An article from Zondervan about John the baptist:

From the linked article:
John was born into a pious Jewish home, grounded in the messianic promises of the Scriptures and looking for the hope of Israel. The parents were delighted with the baby John because he represented the rebirth of prophecy and the fulfillment of the eschatological hope.

The parents of John recognized from the outset the relative greatness of Jesus over John. And because Mary was related to Elizabeth, Jesus had not only a tie with the house of David through Joseph (possibly through Mary too—see more about the genealogy of Jesus), but also with the line of Aaron through both Zechariah and Elizabeth.

All the data suggests that both John and his followers welcomed the advent of Christ and readily gave way to his leadership. ~ Who Was John the Baptist? | Zondervan Academic​

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:24 ~ “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.

The KJV....
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[mkgal1]

There is no other "coming Messiah"

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

You'd written in your earlier post that God is going to choose a future coming Messiah for Israel. John wrote that these false messiahs came in their own name.

This - what you quoted from John 5 - was something Jesus said to the religious leaders of His time.....His first advent. There were other false Messiahs (antichrists) of that time......and Paul warned of them and so did Jesus (in Matthew 24:26).....but that was the first century, not the future. Same thing as the quote from 1 John.....that was for that time....not the future.

1 John 2:18 ~ Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared. From this we know that the last hour has come.​

Ray Vander Laan has, what I believe is, excellent information in order to inform us of what the story is behind the biblical story - what was seething in the first century Jerusalem.

From RVL:
THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response.

The Zealots, an ultra-nationalistic group, proclaimed revolution to be God's solution (Acts 5:37). The Essenes withdrew, waiting anxiously for the Messiah to lead a violent overthrow of the Romans and their Jewish supporters. The Sadducees apparently practiced a form of cooperation since it was Rome who kept them securely in their position over the Temple and therefore over the people (John 11:49-50). The Herodions appeared satisfied with the Herod dynasty (Matt. 22:16). The Pharisees, condemning Rome's pagan excesses, were removed from politics and viewed the foreign oppressors as God's hand punishing his people for their unfaithfulness to the Torah. The country was in turmoil, each faction longing in a different way for the freedom they desired. To this climate of confusion, hatred, and division, many so-called messiahs came, each preaching his own brand of salvation (Acts 21:38). Jesus presented his unique message of redemption. Some followed his lead, but many did not. During feast days, especially Passover, tensions reached fever pitch and the Romans increased their military presence to prevent open revolt. The climate existed, however, for revolution to begin. ~ The Jewish Revolts​

 

[mkgal1]

The KJV....
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

You don't believe "the MOST holy" has been anointed? I'm not clear on what you're inferring.

Whether you go by "most hold PLACE" or merely, "most holy"....I see it as the same thing. The point was.....He (Jesus) was completing the promise that God would dwell with His people (previously that had been His presence between the cherubum covering the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant). The ark had disappeared when Babylon defeated/destroyed Jerusalem the first time. God renewed His promise to dwell with His people....

Ezekiel 37:26-27 ~ And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

John 1:14 ~ The word became flesh and dwelt among us​

 

[Douggg]

You don't believe "the MOST holy" has been anointed? I'm not clear on what you're inferring.

It is talking about the person of Jesus, not the temple. The Jews have not received Jews as the messiah, Savior to their souls, nor as the messiah the King of Israel.

Jesus was anointed by the woman for his burial before he went to Jerusalem.

Mark 14:6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.

7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.

9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus is the Son of God.

"the" messiah is the one God chooses to be the King of Israel during the messianic era of peace and safety when men will beat their swords into plowshares and will learn war no more.

If you are correct Peter was very confused on the Day of Pentecost.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Something else to notice about what BABerean2 is sharing.......pay attention to whom Peter was speaking:

Acts 2: ( <------full chapter there from link) some other key phrases and verses): v 5: dwellingb in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. v 14: Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem

v 37-39 ~ When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

 

[mkgal1]

It is talking about the person of Jesus, not the temple. The Jews have not received Jews as the messiah, Savior to their souls, nor as the messiah the King of Israel.

Keep reading.

They did......and those that didn't, under the Old Covenant, experienced the consequences under the Old Covenant....but that ended in 70 AD

 

[Douggg]

Something else to notice about what BABerean2 is sharing.......pay attention to whom Peter was speaking:

Acts 2: ( <------full chapter there from link) some other key phrases and verses): v 5: dwellingb in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. v 14: Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem

v 37-39 ~ When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

3000 Jews became Christians that day. Now just another 14 million to go.

 

[Douggg]

Keep reading.

They did......and those that didn't, under the Old Covenant, experienced the consequences under the Old Covenant....but that ended in 70 AD

A small percentage.