I used to believe in a rapture but.....

AVBunyan

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Been saved for over 33 yrs - nobody was stronger on believeing in a rapture or wanting one more than me. But then I started reading my bible. In the context I Thess. 4 deals with right before the second coming at the end of tribulation while I Cor. 15 deals with the resurrection of the dead.

I like Col. 3:1-3 but can't prove for sure it is a rapture. I'm open - please, somebody prove to me there is a pre-tribulation rapture - I'd love for you to. I don't believe the body of Christ is going thru the tribulation but just not sure how we get out unless it is we just die off and then transition, and then, tribulation.

So, please convince me - I won't be upset!! :wave:
 

Grafted In

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I Thess is not the second coming of Jesus. Those alive and dead who were/are true born again Christians will be raptured just prior to the 7 year great tribulation. Notice that it does not say He will set foot on the earth at the rapture. Then will the second coming occur and those raptured will return with Him. I have come to the point of being certain in my mind of a pre-tribulation rapture by studying The Seven Feasts of Israel. They are recorded in the Old testament book of Leviticus chapter 23. When Jesus became flesh He fulfilled the first 4 Feast in a manner most fitting to the nature of the feast celebrated by the Hebrew people. He was crucified on the first Feast, Passover. He was buried on the second feast day, Unleavened Bread, He rose from the dead on the 3rd feast, First Fruits, then He sent The Holy Spirit on the 4th feast, Pentecost. The very next feast to be unfulfilled is The Feast of Trumpets, thus the scripture in I Thess :
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

But, that's just my personal take. You will find MANY who will take exception to that.

I urge you to delve into the Feast days. Jesus filled me with a desire to study about them over 30 years ago and I've continued to learn each day. So very many nuggets of pure Truth in The Old Testament!!!
 
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Dispy

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Been saved for over 33 yrs - nobody was stronger on believeing in a rapture or wanting one more than me. But then I started reading my bible. In the context I Thess. 4 deals with right before the second coming at the end of tribulation while I Cor. 15 deals with the resurrection of the dead.

I like Col. 3:1-3 but can't prove for sure it is a rapture. I'm open - please, somebody prove to me there is a pre-tribulation rapture - I'd love for you to. I don't believe the body of Christ is going thru the tribulation but just not sure how we get out unless it is we just die off and then transition, and then, tribulation.

So, please convince me - I won't be upset!! :wave:

The distinction between the rapture and the second coming of Jesus is two separate events.

At the rapture the Church, the Body of Christ will meet the Lord in the air, and ever be with the Lord in heaven (cf. 1 Thess. 4:17, 2 Cor. 5:1, Phil. 3:20).

At His 2nd coming, Jesus will set His feet on the Mount of Olives, and establish His 1,000 year reign.
 
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Danoh

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I Thess is not the second coming of Jesus. Those alive and dead who were/are true born again Christians will be raptured just prior to the 7 year great tribulation. Notice that it does not say He will set foot on the earth at the rapture. Then will the second coming occur and those raptured will return with Him. I have come to the point of being certain in my mind of a pre-tribulation rapture by studying The Seven Feasts of Israel. They are recorded in the Old testament book of Leviticus chapter 23. When Jesus became flesh He fulfilled the first 4 Feast in a manner most fitting to the nature of the feast celebrated by the Hebrew people. He was crucified on the first Feast, Passover. He was buried on the second feast day, Unleavened Bread, He rose from the dead on the 3rd feast, First Fruits, then He sent The Holy Spirit on the 4th feast, Pentecost. The very next feast to be unfulfilled is The Feast of Trumpets, thus the scripture in I Thess :
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

But, that's just my personal take. You will find MANY who will take exception to that.

I urge you to delve into the Feast days. Jesus filled me with a desire to study about them over 30 years ago and I've continued to learn each day. So very many nuggets of pure Truth in The Old Testament!!!

And the other feasts?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16
 
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Grafted In

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And the other feasts?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

Originally Posted by Grafted In
I Thess is not the second coming of Jesus. Those alive and dead who were/are true born again Christians will be raptured just prior to the 7 year great tribulation. Notice that it does not say He will set foot on the earth at the rapture. Then will the second coming occur and those raptured will return with Him. I have come to the point of being certain in my mind of a pre-tribulation rapture by studying The Seven Feasts of Israel. They are recorded in the Old testament book of Leviticus chapter 23. When Jesus became flesh He fulfilled the first 4 Feast in a manner most fitting to the nature of the feast celebrated by the Hebrew people. He was crucified on the first Feast, Passover. He was buried on the second feast day, Unleavened Bread, He rose from the dead on the 3rd feast, First Fruits, then He sent The Holy Spirit on the 4th feast, Pentecost. The very next feast to be unfulfilled is The Feast of Trumpets, thus the scripture in I Thess :
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

But, that's just my personal take. You will find MANY who will take exception to that.

I urge you to delve into the Feast days. Jesus filled me with a desire to study about them over 30 years ago and I've continued to learn each day. So very many nuggets of pure Truth in The Old Testament!!!
 
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I used to favor the post-trib rapture view until something was brought to my attention. This is the very thing that persuaded me to side with the pre-trib position.

Isa 65:20 ​​​​​​​​No more shall there be in it ​​​​​​​an infant who lives but a few days, ​​​​​​​or an old man who does not fill out his days, ​​​​​​​for the young man shall die a hundred years old, ​​​​​​​and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. ​​​

Isaiah 65:20 seems to teach that there will be flesh beings in the Millennial Kingdom. I'm convinced its talking about the Millennium and not the Eternity because it mentions that people "shall die". Obviously this has to be a future event because a 100 years old has not been considered a "young man" since Genesis, so apparently people are going to live much longer in the Millennium.

We know that when Jesus returns for his Church that all believers will be transformed into spiritual bodies (1Cor 15:52). We also know that in the Second Coming all the wicked will be destroyed or "Taken" like in the flood of Noah (Matthew 24:37-41). Contrary to what many pre-trib believers in the past have taught, it is the wicked who are taken and the righteous who are "left behind" in Matthew 24. I believe these events take place after the rapture has already happened.

Now, if the Church is raptured after the tribulation, then that will not leave any flesh beings to enter into the Millennium Kingdom because believers will be transformed into spiritual bodies and all the wicked will be destroyed. However, this difficulty is resolved if the pre-trib position is true because believers will be transformed into spiritual bodies before the tribulation, and those who are saved during the tribulation will remain in their flesh bodies at the Second Coming and they will be the ones who populate the Millennial Kingdom.

Hope that helps

I think there is room for disagreement regarding these matters, and every man has to be persuaded in his own mind.
 
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MWood

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Been saved for over 33 yrs - nobody was stronger on believeing in a rapture or wanting one more than me. But then I started reading my bible. In the context I Thess. 4 deals with right before the second coming at the end of tribulation while I Cor. 15 deals with the resurrection of the dead.

I like Col. 3:1-3 but can't prove for sure it is a rapture. I'm open - please, somebody prove to me there is a pre-tribulation rapture - I'd love for you to. I don't believe the body of Christ is going thru the tribulation but just not sure how we get out unless it is we just die off and then transition, and then, tribulation.

So, please convince me - I won't be upset!! :wave:


In my prescious opinion, which I value highly, we will not suffer the wrath of God during the tribulation period. We are sons of God, we are heirs of God, and co-heirs with Jesus our big brother. Jesus will not suffer the wrath. We are the members of his Body. We wont suffer either. We have been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom5:9.

1Thes1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised form the dead, even Jesus, which delievered us from the wrath to come.

1Thes5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Thirteen times in the book of Revelation, it speaks of the wrath of God. This is the times of the Tribulation. And since we are not given to the wrath of God, it just makes sense that we, the Saints of the Body of Christ, will be caught away to be with our Lord and live together with him.
So the catching away will have to happen before the Tribulation.

MPO
 
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AVBunyan

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Thanks folks for your thoughts - I also believe we are not going to experience any of the 7 years for the book of Revelation is a book about Israel primarily and the body of Christ is not there regardless of what fundamentalists teach.

As written in... "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord"...the word that tells me it is prior to the 2nd advent is the word "coming". It just seems when ever the word "coming" appears it is a reference to Christ's physical return to earth not an "appearing" in the clouds.

Now, I haven't figured out all those "appearings" in Paul's epistles - I know some refer to Christ's appearings to Paul to reveal truth to him - this I know.

Again folks - I understand the "rapture" and the 2nd coming of Christ are different events and there is no rapture in Matt. 24.

I just believe that in Thessalonians (which is an early, really early Acts epistle) those folks seem to be waiting for Christ's physical return for in Acts Christ could have come back then and they were looking for that coming.

Remember folks - not fighting the rapture here - I want to leave - my body is falling apart and I'm ready so I hope I am wrong and you are right.

God bless :wave:
 
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Biblewriter

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For Christians of the present time, all other prophetic events pale into nothingness beside this one great event, which the scriptures speak of in numerous places.

Jesus spoke of it, saying, “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” (John 14:2-3)

But we also read, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." (1 Thessalonians 3:13)

In the first passage above our Lord says “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” The second one speaks of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” It is obvious that His coming to receive us to Himself has to take place before His coming “with all His saints.” The words used by the Holy Spirit do not allow any other conclusion. But how long before “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” will He “come again and receive” us to Himself?

The answer to this question begins with the promise, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)
The Greek word translated "from" in this verse is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) which indeed means from, but in the sense of away from or out of.

Some imagine that this only means out of after being in the “hour of trial.” But Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines ek, as it is used in Revelation 3:10, to mean “to keep one at a distance from.” Indeed, this becomes obvious when we consider the word “keep” in this phrase. This word is from the Greek word tereo (word number 5083 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.) It literally means to guard, but in the scriptures was usually used in the sense of our English word keep, and is so translated more than two-thirds of the times tero occurs in the Greek text of the New Testament. So it is clear that the real meaning of this promise is to be kept out of “the hour of trial.”

But what is this “the hour of temptation” that they will be kept out of? The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of temptation.” It is specifically called “the hour,” for the word “the” is in the Greek text, as the word ho. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary - Unlike English, in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew, definite articles are normally used only for stress. If the word “the” is in the original text, it means the thing being referred to is a particular thing, not just something in general.) But what “hour of temptation” is this specific time that they are they promised to be kept out of? It is “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

There is a specific “hour of trial” coming “to try them that dwell upon the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of temptation.” For the Greek word translated to temptation here, peirasai, (word number 3985 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) literally means to test. So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to try those who dwell upon the earth.” Its purpose is not to test the saints of God, but “those who dwell upon the earth.” This is a moral class, those whose hearts are on the earth, rather than on heaven. They are mentioned in these words eight times in the Revelation, (See Revelation 3:10, 11:10, 13:8, 13:12, 13:14 (twice) 14:6 and 17:8 See them also as “inhabitants of the earth” in Revelation 12:12.) and always negatively.

To really understand this, we need to consider another promise made concerning a similar time period. The Lord said to Israel, “Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." (Jeremiah 30:6-7 ) In this case, the Hebrew word translated saved is yasha’, (word number 3467 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) this Hebrew word means saved in the sense of succor. In the KJV, this Hebrew word is rendered save 149 times, deliver 13 times, help 12 times, and once as rescue. We notice this to clearly understand that this Hebrew word carries an entirely different sense from the Greek word tereo used in Revelation 3:10. In one case, the Lord promised to help some of His own get through their designated time of trouble. In the other, He promised to keep others of His own out of a time of testing designed for others.

(continued)
 
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Biblewriter

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We are also told where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon all the world.” The Greek word translated all in this clause is holos (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing. So there is coming a specific time of testing, and it is coming upon the entire world. But the Lord’s own are promised that they will be kept out of that time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the entire world, but the Lord’s own will be kept out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing. So we see that Revelation 3:10 tells us that the Lord’s own will be removed from the earth before this time of testing begins.

We see this again in a passage about Noah and Lot. “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (2 Peter 2:4-9)

Here the Holy Spirit gives us two specific examples, Noah and Lot, both of whom were physically removed from the scene of judgment before it took place. Then, in the context of these two examples, the He said, “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (2 Peter 4:9)

Thus the Holy Spirit showed His intention to “deliver the godly out of temptations” by physically removing them from the scene “of temptations” before they take place, just as He did for Noah and Lot. The Greek word here translated from is the same ek, that we saw in Revelation 3:10, whose normal meaning is from in the sense of away from or out of, and the Greek word translated temptations is peirasmou, the singular form of the peirasmon that we saw in Revelation 3:10 This Greek word does not mean, or even imply, trouble, but literally means testing. There are no accidents in the precise wording of scripture. The fact that the Holy Spirit used these same two words in these two parallel passages is highly significant.

Again, we read of the coming of “the man of sin.” The Holy Spirit said “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 ) In this scripture the Holy Spirit said “you know what withholdeth.” He did not say “you should know,” or “you ought to know.” He said “you know.” This makes it plain that he was speaking of Himself. No other possible withholder could be so obvious he did not need to be named.

We are told that “he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” How can this be, when Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:16-17) One scripture tells us “the Spirit of truth”is given “that He may abide with you forever.” The other says that He will be “taken out of the way.” How can one who will “abide with you forever” be “taken out of the way?”

We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of truth,”is truly given “that He may abide with you forever.” But Jesus, “the Lord Himself,” will also “descend from heaven” and catch us up “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This event has to be the time when the Holy Spirit is “taken out of the way.” This is because the saints of God will be removed from this earth, yet the Holy Spirit will be with them forever. It is therefore plain that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” at the same time the Saints of God will be “caught up... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But it is only after that happens that “that Wicked will be revealed.” For we remember that “the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) So this scripture, which shows that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” before the Antichrist, “that Wicked,” will be revealed thereby shows that the rapture has to take place before that time.

We see this again in the parable of the ten virgins, where we read that “the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see “they that were ready” taken into the wedding while “the other virgins” are held outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. The fact that the door remains closed for those that were not “ready” is highlighted in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, where we are told that “they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” That is, at the time of the rapture.

Finally, in Revelation 4:4 we read, “And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.” As there were twelve tribes in Israel and twelve apostles, this appears to indicate the presence of all the Old Testament and New Testament saints of God already in heaven before the beginning of the seal and trumpet visions of Revelation six through nine.
 
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Grafted In

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There are seven feasts: you left out Atonement and Tabernacles.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16


Please read again my first post. Everything you've asked of me I have already addressed. You must read in a way similar to myself. I skim through something, then have to go back and read it several times again. It gives me comfort (not pleasure) to know that others struggle with the same thing. We be identical brothers in Christ in that respect.
 
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CalvinistSamurai

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I've been a dispensationalist for like 20 years, and this is the least problematic view on the rapture that I've seen thus far is from Michael Svigel, the Eschatology professor at Dallas Theo. CF won't let post links yet, but do a search on Google for "Michael Svigel Rapture" and it should be the first link.

It's a tad lengthy, but I think his conclusions are well thought out and less problematic than other schemes. The only thing is that he doesn't prove the timing, although it does seem to favor a pretrib rapture.
 
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AVBunyan

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I've been a dispensationalist for like 20 years, and this is the least problematic view on the rapture that I've seen thus far is from Michael Svigel, the Eschatology professor at Dallas Theo. CF won't let post links yet, but do a search on Google for "Michael Svigel Rapture" and it should be the first link.

I will search for it right after I leave this forum - thanks. :wave:

Like I said before - I want there to be a rapture or catching away - I believed it for 30 years but now I'm rethinking.
 
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I think the identification of the male child as the church is the view that is the least problematic. The view that the child is only Jesus just doesn't fit the bill. I always had a problem with that text because Jesus just didn't seem to fit, but the view that it's the church being raptured as the dragon goes to make war on the seed that remains in the tribulation seems to make the most sense and has the fewest difficulties.
 
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Danoh

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Please read again my first post. Everything you've asked of me I have already addressed. You must read in a way similar to myself. I skim through something, then have to go back and read it several times again. It gives me comfort (not pleasure) to know that others struggle with the same thing. We be identical brothers in Christ in that respect.


I was hoping you would elaborate on those that I might then address it all from the Mid-Acts Perspective I study Scripture from (that Church which is His Body, began in Acts 9, with the salvation of its first member, the Apostle Paul, as, by then, God had once more TEMPORARILY set aside His PROPHESIED Plan and Purpose FOR THE EARTH through a one day redeemed Israel OVER the nations, ONLY, THIS TIME AROUND He began to reveal His KEPT SECRET Plan and Purpose FOR THE HEAVENLIES via and in A NEW CREATURE: the Body of Christ).

From this, "the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY" Israel's feasts, its promise, its coming refiner's fire, culminating in the Lord's return TO that nation has nothing to do with His coming FOR His Body, prior to said day of His wrath.

From the perspective of this Mystery, only Romans through Philemon address the Rapture of His Body by Him, and it is not Pre-Trib, but more along the line of pre His Prophetic Program's clock's ticking once more.

The Mystery alone clears these issues up - Acts 3 and 15 in light of Romans 2; Romans 9-11, and Romans 15:8-12 and its division from verse 13 forward in light of their dividing line - Romans 11:25-27.

In other words, study all those passages out in light of the following dividing line: on the one hand, Romans 15:8-12......in the middle, Romans 11:25-27.....on the other hand, Romans 15:13-21.

Then, read Romans 2 and 9-11, and then Acts 2 and 15.

By the way, the grafting in is not the grafting in of the Gentiles but of the opportunity to hear the gospel of OUR salvation, Ephesians 1:13.

This grafting in - of The Offer of A Salvation to the Gentiles DIRECTLY, rather than, AS PROPHESIED - Through Israel - NOW on hold til the the fulness of this Gentile offer be come in - is why ITS APOSTLE - OF THE GRNTILES - is able to declare what he does in Romans 11 about the need to fear its cutting off.

It is the opportunity to get saved DURING THIS AGE OF GRACE AND PEACE ON GOD'S PART IN HIS SON that will be cut off, just it was Israel's opportunity to hear the gospel of THEIR salvation that was cut off, NOT Israel, for God is a God of His Word, Romans 11:25-27.


In His keeping of His prmises, of His having given His Word to that nation as much beloved by Him as it is for their father's sakes- for His promise to Israel's fathers, He "changeth NOT" Malachi 3:6 is VERY clear on this.

We rob Him of His Word to that nation to apply HIS promises TO THEM to the Body. We have our own promise - Romans thru Philemon.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16
 
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notreligus

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Been saved for over 33 yrs - nobody was stronger on believeing in a rapture or wanting one more than me. But then I started reading my bible. In the context I Thess. 4 deals with right before the second coming at the end of tribulation while I Cor. 15 deals with the resurrection of the dead.

I like Col. 3:1-3 but can't prove for sure it is a rapture. I'm open - please, somebody prove to me there is a pre-tribulation rapture - I'd love for you to. I don't believe the body of Christ is going thru the tribulation but just not sure how we get out unless it is we just die off and then transition, and then, tribulation.

So, please convince me - I won't be upset!! :wave:

There will be a rapture, but it will be when God's own unrestrained wrath is unleashed upon the Earth. God will protect His own by taking them away unto Himself.
 
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PeterAV

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Been saved for over 33 yrs - nobody was stronger on believeing in a rapture or wanting one more than me. But then I started reading my bible. In the context I Thess. 4 deals with right before the second coming at the end of tribulation while I Cor. 15 deals with the resurrection of the dead.

I like Col. 3:1-3 but can't prove for sure it is a rapture. I'm open - please, somebody prove to me there is a pre-tribulation rapture - I'd love for you to. I don't believe the body of Christ is going thru the tribulation but just not sure how we get out unless it is we just die off and then transition, and then, tribulation.

So, please convince me - I won't be upset!! :wave:
There is no pre-trib verse, otherwise it would have been quoted thousands of times each day. I never believed in the pre-trib rapture but was never shown anything to the contrary. I had to take some time to research the bible. Initially, for a short term, I became mid-trib, or a post trib-pre-wrath.
But even those got swallowed up by the truth of God's pure word.
Post trib is the only definitive form that the Bible makes no bones about.
Immediately after the tribulation,
After that man of sin be revealed,
After the falling away,
After the sun, moon, stars,
After the heavens be no more,
At the last trump,
After the plagues
*******
Behold, I am coming as a thief. Revelation 16:15 then Armageddon.
Clearly post trib.
Matthew 24 = Revelation 6 to 8 in the same order.
*******
Matthew 24 ******* = ******* Revelation 6 to 8
False Christs 24:5 ******* ***6:1,2 1st seal [Anti-Christ]
Wars ******* 24:6 ******* *** 6:3,4 2nd seal [red horse, wars]
Famines *** 24:7 ******* ***6:5,6 3rd seal [famine]
Killed & hated 24:9 ******* ***6:7,8 4th seal [death, kill with sword]
Death *** 24:22 ******* ***6:9 5th seal [martyrs]
Sun Moon & Stars 24:29 ******* 6:12-17 6th seal [Sun, Moon & Stars]
The rapture*** 24:30,31 ******* 7:9-14 [The multitude in heaven]
The wrath of God 24:37-39 ******* 8:1-7 [Wrath of God]
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
 
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