A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

[Douggg]

When Satan sits in the Temple and demands allegiance from everyone, or death.

First, that is not an explanation of a fire coming up in the midst of Satan, and bring him to ashes... as it says in Ezekiel 28:16-19.

And secondly, the revealed man of sin in 2Thessalonias2:3-4 is a human being, not Satan.

Thirdly, when Satan is exposed for everyone present to see him they are going to be astonished, shocked. Verse 19 below.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[oikonomia]

Of course the living faithful Christians won't have to get their heads chopped off to qualify for the Wedding feast of the Lamb.
Nowhere is it said that ceremony will be in heaven. Rev 7 and Rev 19 both imply an earthly scene.

The sound of their rejoicing comes from heaven where they are.
After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven,. . . (19:1)

The marriage of the Lamb they say HAS COME at that time where they are.
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, . . . (v.7)

This celebration in heaven is different from what is said in Revelation 19:17,18 about "the great dinner of God" involving
birds devouring the corpses of Christ's enemies on earth.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come here; gather yourselves to the great dinner of God,

That you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of generals and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free and slave and small and great. (vs.17,18)

Such a thing is possible with God, but not scriptural, logical, or even sensible.

Selective pre-tribulation rapture is
scriptural and logical and sensible.

The principle that an apostle who was saved forever could be "disapproved" for reward is here:
But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved. (1Cor. 9:27)

And here we see all Christians may be saved but some suffer loss.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

And here we see Paul warning Christians in Corinth, Ephesus, and the churches in Galatia that such
lifestyles of believers will disqualify them from inheriting the kingdom. We must be transformed and sanctified.

Warning to Corinthian Christians:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards,
not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9,10)

Warning to Ephesian Christians:
But fornication and all uncleanness or greediness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints,
And obscenity and foolish talking or sly, filthy jesting, which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks.
For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolater) has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Eph. 5:3-5)

Warning to Galatian Christians:
And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects,
Envyings, bouts of drunkenness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand,
even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:19-21)

So to lose out on a pre-tribulation rapture as others enjoy one is scriptural, sensible, and logical.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (Matt. 24:42,44)

We are all needed here to be Gods people showing the nations the right way to live.

This fact does not mean God's cannot reward overcoming believers with pre-tribulation rapture.
There is no false dichotomy.

And we must endure until the end.

The Lord recognizes that SOME before the GT had already learned the lesson of endurance in their daily walk.
And He promises they will be kept put of the hour of world-wide trial.

Because you have kept the word of My ENDURANCE, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

Endurance works APPROVEDNESS. And not all Christians must wait to learn this in the GT.

And not only so, but we also boast in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance;
And endurance, approvedness; and approvedness, hope; (Rom. 5:3,4)

I appreciate your comprehensive reply, but haven't the time or inclination to respond to all of it. You have made it plain, that you would disagree anyway.
Isaiah 35:4-5 says that only after the Lord has sent His vengeance and wrath, will the eyes of the blinded be opened.

Isaiah 35:4-5 can be absolutely true and Rev. 3:10 be also true.

How does the promise to the watching to be raptured before the time of world-wide judgment
make this impossible to also be true?

Say to those who are of anxious heart, / Be strong; fear not; / Indeed your God / Will come with vengeance, / With the recompense of God; / He will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind will be opened, / And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped;

The two truths do not cancel out each other as if God would not do both.

 

[keras]

First, that is not an explanation of a fire coming up in the midst of Satan, and bring him to ashes... as it says in Ezekiel 28:16-19.

The Prophesies are clear; Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:10

And secondly, the revealed man of sin in 2Thessalonias2:3-4 is a human being, not Satan.

He will be a human who gets killed and his body taken over by Satan, Revelation 13:3-4

Thirdly, when Satan is exposed for everyone present to see him they are going to be astonished, shocked. Verse 19 below.

Maybe, but most people will worship the 'beast' and will take his mark. Revelation 13:14-16

I note that you haven't yet achieved your by-line objective!

 

[keras]

The sound of their rejoicing comes from heaven where they are.
After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven,. . . (19:1)

Yes, the martyrs killed for their faith, their souls are in heaven, they 'sleep' under the Altar. Revelation 6:9-11 I see their crying out at times, to be allegorical and is told to us as a way of reinforcing the fulfilment of Gods plan, for those dead people and for us; the living.
No one else is in heaven, that idea has to be assumed and guessed at.

So to lose out on a pre-tribulation rapture as others enjoy one is scriptural, sensible, and logical.

The loss of rewards, as Paul tells it in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, is because of peoples ungodly or valueless works.
This will happen on the Day of Judgment and punishment of the wicked and the great fiery test for the Christian peoples.
Our reward for standing strong in our faith and trusting in the Lord for protection, is to be given a position of priesthood or rulership in the coming Kingdom. Revelation 5:9-10

This fact does not mean God's cannot reward overcoming believers with pre-tribulation rapture.

How can we do what God requires of His human servants, if we are practising the harp in heaven?

The Lord recognizes that SOME before the GT had already learned the lesson of endurance in their daily walk.
And He promises they will be kept put of the hour of world-wide trial.

Nonsense, what trials have you had to endure? We all have to suffer loss and many have health issues, but we eventually die. That is our lot.
WE are the final generation, the ones who will see it all.
WE must go thru the great test of the soon to happen Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Zechariah 3:8
The Lord Promises that those who call upon His Name, will be saved. Kept safe as we pass thru the valley of the shadow of death. Isaiah 43:2. +

Isaiah 35:4-5 can be absolutely true and Rev. 3:10 be also true.

What is a fact is that the wise and learned are clueless about Gods Plans for our future. Matthew 11:25

 

[Douggg]

The Prophesies are clear; Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:10

All, not just Satan, who's name is not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire after the millennium.

So, no, that is not an explanation of a fire coming up in the midst of Satan, and bringing him to ashes...on earth.... as it says in Ezekiel 28:16-19.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

He will be a human who gets killed and his body taken over by Satan, Revelation 13:3-4

So when is the revealed man of sin's body untaken over by Satan ? At Jesus's return the beast-king (the revealed man of sin in his final stage) will be cast into the lake of fire. While Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit prison.

So, at some point the two must be separated. I am not really seeking an answer from you...

I will explain...
--------------------------------

Here is what will happen.

The Antichrist about three years into the seven years will be entered into by Satan temporarily only to carry out the act of betrayal against the Jewish people, called the transgression of desolation.

In 2Thessalonians2:3, the Antichrist for that act is called the son of perdition - just as Judas was called the son of perdition because Satan temporarily entered Judas to carry out the act of betraying Jesus.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood - will anger God and in Ezekiel 28:1-10 it reveals that God will have the revealed man of sin assassinated.

Then, the person, in Isaiah 14:18-20, God returns back to life, in disdain of him, and as the strong delusion that God sends to them who believe the Antichrist's claim of having achieved God-hood, the big lie, 2Thessalonians2:11.

Brought back life, he becomes the beast. The false prophet has an image made of him, and places it on the temple mount. Inanimate at first, lifeless.

Then when Satan is cast down to earth (Ezekiel 28:17 below), Satan indwells the statue image making it appear to come alive and speak. The false prophet will claim that he did it by a miracle - but it will be a lying wonder.

And people who name's are not written in the book of life will worship that image, unknowingly that they are worshipping Satan.

The day that Jesus returns, He will stare down the image, and in a blaze, turns it to ashes, exposing Satan there on the temple mount. Fulfilling Ezekiel 28:18.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

They among the people know him - simply because they will have been worshipping the statue image for over three years. But they will be astonished when they find out that day, that it was Satan they had been worshipping the whole time.

The exposure of Satan on the temple mount by Jesus that day will be one of the biggest events of the end times.

Maybe, but most people will worship the 'beast' and will take his mark. Revelation 13:14-16

I note that you haven't yet achieved your by-line objective!

Read what I wrote above.

 

[Douggg]

Nonsense, what trials have you had to endure? We all have to suffer loss and many have health issues, but we eventually die. That is our lot.
The Lord Promises that those who call upon His Name, will be saved. Kept safe as we pass thru the valley of the shadow of death. Isaiah 43:2. +

1Corinthians15:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[oikonomia]

Yes, the martyrs killed for their faith, their souls are in heaven, they 'sleep' under the Altar.

My replies this time will give more emphasis to the OP. Details here and there about eschatology will take a back seat.

The bride is also a warrior. Ephesians discribes the church in a number of aspects, The last two are that she is a wife to her husband Christ
(Eph. 5:23-32) and a warrior fighting with Him His spiritual enemies (Eph. 6:1-20).

That a remnant become the bride without spot or wrinkle - glorious binds Ephesians 5:23-32 together with Revelation 19:7-9.
That the same remnant become His acompanying warrior to Armageddon binds Ephesians 6:10-20 together with Revelation 19:14.

The qualification for them to be at the marriage - righteousnesses shown by linen bright and clean. (Rev. 19:7,8).
. . . for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.
And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints. (v.8)
Her wedding garment of righteous deeds also qualifies her to be His fighting army as a fighting garment. (v.14)
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

The bottom line is that her overcoming for marriage is also her overcoming to fight with Christ.

Revelation 6:9-11 I see their crying out at times, to be allegorical and is told to us as a way of reinforcing the fulfilment of Gods plan, for those dead people and for us; the living.
No one else is in heaven, that idea has to be assumed and guessed at.

It is so easy for Christians to get distracted from the OP's truth to these matters of "soul sleep," "under the altar," matters.

My OP here is going to stick to the overcomers in Christ are both His romantic counterpart as well as His fighting counterpart.
Therefore the stronger part (the man-child) of the universally bright woman being raptured for spiritual warfare and also
marriage of Christ is consistent, scriptural, and very logical.

The man-child is resurrected, transfigured, glorified, and caught up to heaven.
She cannot be Christ's bride in the old body, soul sleeping, or not glorified in transfiguration.

Jesus took the LEAD to be resurrected, glorified, ascended as the Firstborn Son of God. He even
used "a man is born into the world" to signify His resurrection and transfiguration.

A woman, when she gives birth, has sorrow because her hour has come; but when she brings forth the little child, she no longer remembers the affliction because of the joy that a man has been born into the world. (John 16:21)

To match Him as His bride the overcomers must go through the same process.
Though only a remnant are seen as His wife who made herself ready before the millennium afterwards
one thousand years latter every single saved one JOINS this Wife as the full New Jerusalem, the Bride.

After the millennium time -
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:1,2)

Bottom line here - at the end of the church age at the start of the millennium only a REMNANT are rewarded.
At the end of the millennium in the new heaven and new earth the ENTIRE rest of all saints receive the gift promised all.

This is consistent with too much of God's way in history and in the Bible. That is a remnant like trailbazers gain the beachhead
for the rest of the body of saints.

AndI have to suspend for the morning. Talk more latter.

 

[oikonomia]

Because the stronger part of the woman, the man-child, is such a concern with the Devil, he especially does
not him to come forth.

And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. . . . And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (See Rev. 12:3-5)

 

[oikonomia]

Questions to all (like Douggg) who believe the entire church on earth has a pre-tribulation rapture in Matt.24:40-42:

1.) Do you think that Christians who are still ensnared in such lifestyles will be taken when Jesus says
". . . one is taken and one is left" ? (Matt. 24:40)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards,
not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9,10)

2.) Do you also think that Christians still habitually defeated by these lifestyles will be considered as watching when Jesus teaches -
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt.24:42)

But fornication and all uncleanness or greediness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints,
And obscenity and foolish talking or sly, filthy jesting, which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks.
For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolater) has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Eph. 5:3-5)

3,) Do you think that Christians who have not been able all their spiritual lives to overcome these failures
will be autmomatically raptured pre-tribulation?

And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects,
Envyings, bouts of drunkenness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand,
even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:19-21)

 

[keras]

1Corinthians15:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 14:50-56, is a Prophecy about what will happen at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
Proved by how Death will be no more. 1 Cor 15:55 and Revelation 21:4 are parallel prophesies.

Thinking this could happen in any form, before the final Judgment, is error and confusion.

 

[keras]

The bottom line is that her overcoming for marriage is also her overcoming to fight with Christ.

I do not see humans in any way; being involved with destroying Satans armies. Revelation 19:19-21

I read Ephesians 6 again. It refers to our Spiritual battles here and now, nothing about fighting with Jesus when He Returns.
The idea of humans being part of heavens armies, is sci-fi gone mad and impossible because the Bible nowhere says that anyone will go to live in heaven in the first place.

It is so easy for Christians to get distracted from the OP's truth to these matters of "soul sleep," "under the altar," matters.

Yes, because those dead peoples souls simply have the honor of being kept under the Altar in heaven. ALL dead souls return to God, who made them.

at the end of the church age at the start of the millennium only a REMNANT are rewarded.
At the end of the millennium in the new heaven and new earth the ENTIRE rest of all saints receive the gift promised all.

This I agree with.
Those who endure until the end, keeping their faith and trust in the Lord, will be rewarded with positions of authority in the Millennium.
Then; after the thousand years; ALL whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality at the GWT Judgment.

Do you think that Christians who have not been able all their spiritual lives to overcome these failures
will be autmomatically raptured pre-tribulation?

And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects,
Envyings, bouts of drunkenness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand,
even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:19-21)

Good points.
This truth virtually precludes any one from any 'rapture to heaven'. We are all guilty of some kind of transgression.
Only by proving our faith as we pass thru all that must happen, will we become worthy to be with Jesus into the Millennium.

 

[oikonomia]

I do not see humans in any way; being involved with destroying Satans armies. Revelation 19:19-21

I will lean again towards my OP.

God can do anything unilaterally and alone. He CHOOSES not to do so.
He chooses to wait for His people on earth to echo His desire, reflect it, request it, and Amen it.

I do not for an instant imply humans can do anything apart from abiding in Him.
If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. (John 15:7)

Do you remember Joshua and his army being helped by God by causing the sun and moon to stay in place ? (Joshua 10:13,14)
And the sun was still, And the moon stayed, / Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies.
Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stayed in the middle of the heavens, and it did not hurry to set for about a whole day.
And there was never a day like that day, before it or after it, when Jehovah listened to the voice of a man; for Jehovah fought for Israel.

Do you remember God assisting the army of Israel by raining down ROCKS from the sky on thier enemies ?
And while they fled from before Israel, when they were on the descent of Beth-horon, Jehovah sent large stones upon them from heaven as far as Azekah, and they died. There were more who died because of the hailstones than the children of Israel slew with the sword. (Joshua 10:11)

These OT examples show that when God's people are in harmony He will go to no end to help them FIGHT His and thier opposers.
A problem is that Pentacostal preachers have cheapened this matter crying out for trivial stuff, like the lengthening of legs or
supposed filling of teeth with gold.

These accounts of Divine / human cooperation are for great matters of His will being done for His kingdom.
It is a matter of HARMONY between the will of God and the will of His people.

This is what the Devil wants to keep hidden from the church.

Please read of God being limited in the His desire to defeat completely Syria the because the half-hearted
Joash king of Israel. The dying prophet Elisha told Joash to strike the arrows on the ground to symbolize Israel's victories over
the Syrians.

And Elisha said to him, Take a bow and arrows; and he took a bow and arrows to him.
And he said to the king of Israel, Grasp the bow; and he grasped it. And Elisha put his hands over the hands of the king,

And he said, Open the window toward the east; and he opened it. And Elisha said, Shoot; and he shot. And he said, Jehovah’s arrow of victory, an arrow of victory against Syria; for you will strike Syria in Aphek until you have consumed it.

And he said, Take the arrows; and he took them. And he said to the king of Israel, Strike the ground; and he struck the ground three times then stopped.
And the man of God became angry with him and said, You should have struck it five or six times; then you would have struck Syria until you had consumed them. But now you shall strike Syria only three times. (2 Kings 13:15-19)

There are lessons in these stories. God awaits the harmony and one accord of His people to carry out His will on earth.

I read Ephesians 6 again. It refers to our Spiritual battles here and now, nothing about fighting with Jesus when He Returns.

Keras, everything is not always said in every part of the Bible. It is enough that we are told this.

For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies. (Eph. 6:12)

After so many aspects of the church (chapters 1 - 5) the last aspect Paul comes to in Ephesians is about spiritual warfare. (Chapter 6)

In the inception of the churchwhen the apostles were threatened they cried out in one accord and God empowered them shaking the house in which they prayed.

And when they heard this, they lifted up their voice with one accord to God and said, Sovereign Master, You are the One who has made heaven and earth and the sea and all things in them, . . . etc. etc. etc. . . . And when they had so besought, the place in which they were gathered was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness. (See Acts 4:24-31)

The master key is oneness with God in harmony and one accord among the saints.
Now you know the MAIN reason Satan seeks ever to keep believers unsanctified in living and divided.
He knows that the prevailing church will crush him under their feet in harmony with the God of peace.

Romans 16:20 - Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Now is the time for believers to realize we can turn this age with spiritual coordination with the Triune God.
The greater things the Lord said we would do are about the bringing in of His kingdom though our living and our oneness.

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves.

Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also; and greater than these he shall do because I am going to the Father.

And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. (John 14:11-14)

Pray for this. Ask the Lord if He wants you to be a part of this.
And good reading on this is "The Prayer Ministry of the Church" by Watchman Nee.

 

[keras]

Ask the Lord if He wants you to be a part of this.

The Prophesies about the soon to happen Day when the world will be dramatically changed, make it clear that the Lord will instigate it Himself. Zephaniah 3:8, Isaiah 30:26-30, is the one which tells us what He will use to literally fulfil the over 100 Prophesies about that terrible Day.

He did use other peoples in the past, He also used natural events. It is thought that the 185,000 Assyrian troops were killed by toxic gas venting up from the earth.
An explosion on the suns surface, a Coronal Mass Ejection, of unprecedented magnitude, is the only event which can and will literally cause all the things described for that Day. A 24 hour period.
Scientists have warned us for years about the high likelihood of such a disaster.

 

[Douggg]

Questions to all (like Douggg) who believe the entire church on earth has a pre-tribulation rapture in Matt.24:40-42:

1.) Do you think that Christians who are still ensnared in such lifestyles will be taken when Jesus says
". . . one is taken and one is left" ? (Matt. 24:40)

I believe that the rapture may happen pre-70th week or it may happen after the 70th week begins. But it has to happen before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

I think that the one taken, one left verse(s) is talking about believers vs non believers.

The criteria for believers is that Jesus made a comparison between a good servant and evil servant. Regarding the evile servant...

Matthew 24:
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[oikonomia]

I believe that the rapture may happen pre-70th week or it may happen after the 70th week begins. But it has to happen before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

First, after re-study of a few things I wrote I need to correct or adjust some things. (I think more to keras)

As I read along, when the rapture is secondary to my MORAL question of readiness.
Let me see if you more directly address the moral aspect of the issue rather than the calender timing of the issue.

I think that the one taken, one left verse(s) is talking about believers vs non believers.

So the clear warnings in 1 Cor. 6:9,10, Eph. 5:3-5, Gal. 5:19-21 make no different for you in rapture.
Then "watching" is irrelvant. Whether one does so or totally neglects to do so, he will be taken.

Would you count a habitually sanctified Christian working in the field with a clear conscience and
a fleshy, habitually backslidden Christian in that field, perhaps living in fornication, as both equally watching?

Would you consider the servant taking advantage of his master's delay to be watching?

But if that evil slave says in his heart, My master delays,
And begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with the drunken,

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,

And will cut him asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.
In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 24:48-51)

Your specific answer is expected.
Is such a Christian takng advantage of Jesus's delay ready for rapture and to inherit the kingdom of God?
What does your Christian conscience say if the Bible is not clear?

The criteria for believers is that Jesus made a comparison between a good servant and evil servant. Regarding the evile servant...

Matthew 24:
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

How is the unregenerated unbeliever a servant thinking about his Lord's coming ?

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

How does an unregenerated, unredeemed disbeliever is the Son of God have "fellowservants" ?
He is not the Lord's servant himself.

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

How can Jesus be "the lord of that sevant"? He is an unbeliever who does not own Christ as Lord.

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If the unbeliever is already asunder and apart from the Son how can Jesus "cut him asunder"?

And no doubt unbelievers who are unsaved will weep and regret.
Do you think it is impossible for the Christian for whom Paul said -
not . . . will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9,10)
has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Eph. 5:3-5)
those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:19-21)
could not also weep and have regret at missing rapture?

The remedy is for them to FINALLY receive grace to overcome those disquaifying habits.
They may have a chance through the time of being left to pass through the GT. The matter is now no longer optional.

And being left with the worldly people with whom they have little difference in living, it is easy to see
why they are now among them experiencing their portion.

Your specific answers would be appreciated.

 

[oikonomia]

The interpretation of Matthew 24 that all Christians are taken allows these errors.

1.) All the world's people are servants of Christ.

2.) Since being taken is automatic based upon being a Christian there is no need to watch,

3.) All the exhortations urging living in the Spirit sanctfied lives of service to the Lord Jesus are frivolious.

4.) God has no purpose to make us Christ-like. His only purpose is to forgive all sins.

5.) Both the righteous living Christian and the unrighteous living Christian will inherit the millenial kingdom.
The warnings to Christians in 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Eph. 5: 3-5; Gal. 5:19-21 are frivolous and of no consequence.

6.) God's hands are tied so that He has no way to discipline unruly children of His.

7.) All the majority of immature believers are raptured out so God may produce another crop of immature believers.

Does the parable of the development of the kingdom of God and harvest of ripened believers match this untrustworthy
interpretation?

And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth,

And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens — how, he does not know.

The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.

But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, BECAUSE THE HARVEST HAS COME. (Mark 4:26-29)

 

[Douggg]

So the clear warnings in 1 Cor. 6:9,10, Eph. 5:3-5, Gal. 5:19-21 make no different for you in rapture.
Then "watching" is irrelvant. Whether one does so or totally neglects to do so, he will be taken.

Would you count a habitually sanctified Christian working in the field with a clear conscience and
a fleshy, habitually backslidden Christian in that field, perhaps living in fornication, as both equally watching?

Would you consider the servant taking advantage of his master's delay to be watching?

I think it is evident that what Jesus said was not to be living a mean spirited, reckless lifestyle. The scriptures you referenced go into the details of what to avoid.

In Luke 21:34-36, Jesus said not only to be watching, but also to be praying.

If a person becomes too legalistic in their criteria, they move their conscience from saved by grace to saved by works... and become self righteous.

The idea in Christianity in my view is to encourage other Christians not in a condescending way, but in a BLT way and love their neighbor as they would themselves.

I am saying your questions, devised for the sake of argument, lean too much to the legalistic approach - of where is the line drawn, as to who is taken and who is not.

Obviously, the two working in the field in your one vs the other are not equally watching. But what you left out is that they are not equally praying. By encouraging others to pray, it would open their hearts for the Holy Spriit to work in their life's to move them in the direction of not doing those things listed in the scriptures your referenced.

 

[keras]

Here is my tuppence:
There will not be a 'rapture to heaven', of the Church, not now and not ever.

It is possible for people to renounce that false teaching, some have that I know of. It's difficult because of peer pressure, but mostly because God has locked people into their delusions.
He does this in order to test His people, will they keep firm in their faith when disaster strikes and what they expected does not happen?

Matthew 24:37-51 is a homily, a warning for all to be ready and prepared; mostly spiritually for the soon to happen - terrible Day when the Lord will destroy His enemies; in all of the Holy Land and many around the world. Jeremiah 25:33
The physical preparation is to have a plan for a suitable place to shelter from the extreme heat, the violent earthquakes and powerful winds, that will continue for 24 hours. Zephaniah 2:3, Isaiah 17:14

 

[oikonomia]

I think it is evident that what Jesus said was not to be living a mean spirited, reckless lifestyle.

Yes. But the context is to His disciples, to believers, to those who are His.
I don't think He as teaching that unbelievers need not believe in Him as long as they are watchful.

Your view amounts to that.

The scriptures you referenced go into the details of what to avoid.

Yes. To the believing disciples who own Him as their Lord, thier soon to come master they should AVOID this or that.
That also is if they are serious about the kingdom of God - His government, His administration over our lives in this age and the next,

But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.

Who better fits the analogy of a house holder wary of a thief coming to take away what is precious?
The believer in Christ or the unbeliever?

Ie. "Righteous living is precious to the Righteous Son of Man, my Lord Jesus."
Or
"I don't believe Jesus is God's Son and care not for what He would have considered precious."

I think the first case better fits the analigy - . . . if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched ..

Furthermore the dramatic descending of Christ with trumpet blast does not fit well with a thief unaccnoucnced stealthily catching
one off guard. What thief blows a trumpet and a SHOUT to signify his arrival?

First Thess. 4:16a - Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, . . .

This in Matthew 24:40-42 is the pre-tribulation of the vigilant as a reward - unexpected, at any time, after those who live as if He could arrive at any second.

In Luke 21:34-36, Jesus said not only to be watching, but also to be praying.

By watching praying even without ceasing is implied by the details of the epistles.

First Thess. 5:16-19 - Always rejoice, UNCEASINGLY PRAY,
In everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
Do not quench the Spirit;

This kind of praying becomes like a breathing - habitual and even unconscious.

It may be a simple keeping one's heart turned to the Lord.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, . . . (2 Cor. 3:18)

While one is working or even sleeping his heart is turned and opened to the Lord's Spirit.
I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:34)

One is breathing the Lord's presence, calling with whispered prayer or meditation to the living God.
You have heard my voice; do not hide / Your ear at my breathing, at my cry. (Lam. 3:56)

The habit of abiding in Him has been built up and become daily, hourly, moment to moment and even barely conscious at times.
This is what is meant by watching there. It includes touching His presence within.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6)

Watching there is not gazing up into the clouds. It is watching to enjoy the drinking of the Holy Spirit and the breathing in
of the life giving Spirit. And that while carrying out legitimate duties in the office, on the construction site, preparing meals,
even dreaming while asleep in bed. (Luke 17:34)

It is the watching of having built up the unconscious habit of denying the self to enjoy being led by the Holy Spirit.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Rom. 8:14)

So we need practice. So we need like any other habitual way to live PRACTICE every day.
Sudden vigilance at the last moment is risky. Continued practice from the time one is saved throughout his Christian walk
is better.

It is not grevious either. We learn of Him that His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
This habitual way will even be rest unto our troubled souls.

Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. (Matt. 11:28-30)

If a person becomes too legalistic in their criteria, they move their conscience from saved by grace to saved by works... and become self righteous.

I agree that lifeless, Spiritless legalism is to be avoided.
By telling the Lord "Lord Jesus, O Lord I love You." God becomes an enjoyment rather than a code of laws.

The idea in Christianity in my view is to encourage other Christians not in a condescending way, but in a BLT way and love their neighbor as they would themselves.

I cannot do that without being filled with the Spirit of Jesus the loving One.
Left to myself I only care for myself. We need to be filled with the Spirit

He is in us as the bountiful supply of divine life and grace.
For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, (Phil 1:19)

I am saying your questions, devised for the sake of argument, lean too much to the legalistic approach - of where is the line drawn, as to who is taken and who is not.

I think you may be HEARING them that way. We ought to be careful how we listen. (Luke 8:18)

But let's say partial rapture as reward is all wrong.
Isn't it benefitial to God's kingdom that we live watching, abiding in the Lord, anyway?

Disagree with selective rapture. But to watch is superior to neglegience anyway.
The former meets our joy plus God's purpose for us.

Obviously, the two working in the field in your one vs the other are not equally watching.

Okay. That is a start. Obviously the reward of watching is contrasted to the misfortune of apathy.
That's a start.

Now we know by sad experience - Not all Christians can be said to be living such watchful lives.
You and I are both justified by faith and have the gift of eternal life. And yet if we are honest we too do not live as watching for Him.

So we need practice, patience, endurance, continuousness and that either way- full rapture, partial rapture, no rapture, before, during, or after the GT.

But what you left out is that they are not equally praying.

So you are saying ALL Christians because they are praying will be taken in this rapture.
This is simpy not realistic.

You see the simple fact though sad, is that some believers are perpetually defeated and fewer have the
custom of overcoming.

In Corinth Paul said emphatically they all were one Body in Christ. Right?
Yet it is unavoidable the some "approved" are manifested among some "disapproved."

For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and some part of it I believe.
For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you. (1 Cor. 11:19)

On the day or evening of pre-tribulation sudden rapture, Jesus will determine (not anyone else)
who has been manifested as "approved." Though all have the gift of eternal redemption, not all are manifested as approved.

Remember the principle with the taking away of Enoch. He bore testimony beforehand that his living was righteous - well pleasing to God.

By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For before his translation he obtained the testimony that he had been well pleasing to God. (Heb. 11:5)

Now of course to have faith that Jesus is Son of God is well-pleasing to God.
But to live a life gradually being conformed to His image in practical living is the well-pleasingness affecting rapture.

Why would a Christian want to be taken where he would be BORED to go?
What, you know of no such Christians ??

Douggg - what OUGHT to be with His people and what IS with His people are not always the same.

By encouraging others to pray, it would open their hearts for the Holy Spriit to work in their life's to move them in the direction of not doing those things listed in the scriptures your referenced.

Total agreement from me here. And we need to be examples of overcoming.
May God have mercy upon us to grow into this more and more.
And we need oneness and one another to succeed.

 

[oikonomia]

Here is my tuppence:
There will not be a 'rapture to heaven', of the Church, not now and not ever.

You have strongly asserted this. But your arguments examined do not do that well.
So this is just will power to say your view is just true on your insistence.

Having said that. I am not sure where the marriage feast takes place.
But I think it is before the General Husband and Bridegroom takes out the trash on earth at Armageddon.

It is possible for people to renounce that false teaching, some have that I know of. It's difficult because of peer pressure, but mostly because God has locked people into their delusions.
He does this in order to test His people, will they keep firm in their faith when disaster strikes and what they expected does not happen?

If what I teach - selective pre-tribulation rapture as a reward is NOT TRUE,
to live vigilantly, watching in Spirit, abiding in the indwelling Spirit of Christ lives, is a winning truth regardless.

When the Lord says "But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36) does the sovereign Lord have the right to answer such obedience with pre-tribulation rapture as the avenue of escape?

If He came for you pre-GT to the answer of such obedient petitioning would you respond - "No Lord Jesus, You are not allowed to
take me. You see I prefer to not escape all the things which are about to happen."

Isn't this a foolhardy attitude?

Homily- a religious discourse that is intended primarily for spiritual edification rather than doctrinal instruction; a sermon.

The lesson of the discourse if only a homily is this - Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (v.42)

I think you imply that Jesus adds impossible and untrue details which He knew were not going to happen in service of His
"homily." That is unlikely as He said heaven and earth would pass away but His WORDS would not pass away.

Matthew 24:37-51 is a homily, a warning for all to be ready and prepared;

But to you it is not a TEACHING also to be ready and prepared.
In fact it seems you believe it is a homily bolstered up by Jesus with FALSE teaching which will not happen in order to edify.

I don't take it like that. I take it as exhortation teaching which the saved may either take for granted and ignore or give
vigilant attention to. And rapture will tell the difference.

Given the whole Bible incentive to go God's way is not without sober fear of Him.
Love, dedication, are indeed motives to live unto God.
Sober fear of discipline is ALSO added throughout both OT and NT.

Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, . . . (2 Cor. 5:11)