A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

[oikonomia]

The Firstfruits in heaven on Mount Zion (Rev. 14:1-3)
AND
the Harvest taken to the air (Rev. 14:16-16)
are sepeated by time.

The man-child caught up the God and to His throne
AND
the end of the persecution of
"the rest of her seed" (Rev. 12:17-13:1) are also seperated by time.

These two events are also seperated by time.
At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. (Matt. 24:40)

AND

And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt.29,30)

These events are not to be confused as the same and have an interval of time between them.

Here are two other events which a seperated by a time of a least one thousand years.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:10,11)

AND

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. (Rev. 21:1)
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:7)

 

[oikonomia]

It is too bad that some Christians are more interested in Christians (alledgedly) building a physical temple
in Israel and them building the mystical habitation of God in spirit.

If someone tries to persuade you that the church is only built by Christ you
need to know the Christians must cooperate with the indwelling Christ to build up one another.

Here we see Jesus saying He promises that He will build His church.
Matt. 16:18b - I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

And here is where Paul says the church build up itself in love.
Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (Eph. 4:16)

So it is no wonder that some will procede to arrive at the fulfillment of this building as early overcomers.
Untul we all arrive does not mean necessarily that we all arrive at the same time.

For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,
Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (Eph. 4:12,13)

 

[oikonomia]

It is therefore understandable that early rapture of overcomers before the GT would signify that some
have inherited the primises and should be imitated.

That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises. (Heb 6:12)

And it is understandable that like Gideon's small army of 300 won a beachhead victory on behalf of the whole nation
so a remnant proclaim the kingdom and authority of Christ has come in them. Yet at least 3.5 years of persecution continue
to others believers.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:10-12)

 

[keras]

This threads name should be: Sermons by Oikonomia.
Sleeping pills are not required.

 

[oikonomia]

This threads name should be: Sermons by Oikonomia.
Sleeping pills are not required.

Now I'm not happy to hear that.

Growing in Christ for the building of the holy living house of God is exciting to some of us.
But if you are more interested in getting your tools to go over and work on Jerusalem's temple, I understand your boredom.

 

[oikonomia]

When one fails to refute the Bible's truth, one resorts to dismissing it as a "sermon."

 

[oikonomia]

So I'll deal with a few more objections from Keras.

Keras ==============================================
John 3:13 is a definitive statement. No change or rescindment is stated or even implied.
To consider it would change, there would have to be a clear scripture which says people will go to live in heaven. Can you quote one?
====================================================
The instances of people raptured to heaven even if temporary are in Revelation 12,14 and 19.

You'll read about the Firstfruits (ch.14),
the Man-child (ch.12),
and the Wife who has made herself ready who then
comes down from heaven with Christ as Christ's bridal army (ch. 19)

We could also add a number of saved which no one could count - chp 7.

Keras ===================================================
1 Timothy 3:18 ...the great mystery of our Christian religion; manifested in the flesh, vindicated in Spirit, seen by the angels, proclaimed and believed among the nations and raised to heavenly glory.
Our Lord; Jesus Christ, NOT the Church.
============================================================
Keras totally under estimates that the church shares Christ's glory into which it is called.

So that you might walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into His own kingdom and glory. (1 Thess. 2:12)

Keras=================================================
Then John 8:21-23. Is that a slam dunk for "No raptures!"?
Yes: Where He goes; that is: to heaven, we humans cannot come.
================================================

The Lord petitions the Father that in every way we the church may be where He is.

Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

Both spiritually and otherwise here are two groups of passages showing the believers where Jesus Christ is.
(even if only a preliminary remnant of overcomers then)

The corporate man-child in Revelation 12:
And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. (v.10)

The group of Firstfruits standing with Him in heaven:
And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.(Rev. 14:1)

Keras ===========================================
The 144,000 in Rev 7 and 14 follow the Lamb and obey His Commands, in a Spiritual way, as we all do now.
However, note that Jesus will be revealed to His own, 2 Thess 1:10 and Revelation 14:1. He will direct their paths., as they go out to proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19
=============================================

It escapes Keras that Christ could reward those on earth standing with Him "in a spiritual way" with a visit to Him while
He is in heaven before His descent to the earth.
Such is the case with the pre-tribulation rapture of the corporate man-child (Rev. 12)
Such is the case with the pre-tribulation rapture of the Firstfruits (Rev. 14)
Such also is the case with the remnant wife who has made herself ready. She too is rejoicing in heaven. (Rev. 19)

Beware, Keras will do everything to say none of those passages refer to rapture.

Keras ===========================================
The Lord will take His faithful peoples out of the hands of the 'beast;, by flying them to a distant place of safety. Revelation 12:14
A place on earth, proved by how the earth swallows the army sent after them. Rev 12:116
=================================================

Even if this is true it does not remove that those raptured to Heaven rejoice and those left on earth have woe.

And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:11,12)

 

[oikonomia]

Do any here believe that one of the purposes for which God created
man is to deal defeat to Satan?

Is there anyone would agree with me that in the mandate of God's creation of man
was God's inclusion of the purpose to crush a pre-adamic enemy to God?

 

[keras]

As for refuting your post #247, the thread The Alternative to a rapture does that.

Gods Purpose for Mankind:
Long ago, God, who has existed forever, formed the angelic beings, in order to serve Him in the Heavenly realms. There are a great number of angels and they have varying degrees of powers. The most powerful of these is Lucifer. [the light bearer]

It was a sad day for God when Lucifer began to aspire to take over God’s kingship. Lucifer said; “I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:12-14. Then he convinced a third of the other angels to go with him in rebellion against God.

God had a dilemma. He couldn’t simply wipe out those beings that He had created, because as a perfect and righteous God, to arbitrarily destroy them would not prove His just sentence against them.
What was required were witnesses – intelligent, unbiased and independent jurors to sit at this trial of Lucifer and his followers, so that the defendants could not say to God- you are unjust. Job 34:10-12

So God thought about that universe that He had created in another dimension and tidied up a suitable planet in it. He prepared a beautiful garden, and then formed a man and a woman in His likeness. They were given free will over their actions.
God may have been quite happy had Adam and Eve continued in obedience to Him. However, I guess God knew that they wouldn’t and sin came into this world, which does give humans the choice between good and evil.

And so, the first civilization gradually fell into worse and worse sin, until God wiped them out with a great flood, saving only one family.

Once again, the population increased and God decided that one righteous man would father a nation that would become “a light to all nations” in order to show the world His ways and be a people who would become His jurors and His friends. Isaiah 43:10-11

God showed His love for these people by rescuing them from bondage in Egypt, giving them His laws and settling them into the Promised Land. According to His plan, they divided into two Kingdoms - the House of Judah and the House of Israel. 1 Kings 12:24

Sadly, even these peoples backslid into apostasy and idolatry. So, ‘God flung them out of His presence.’ Jeremiah 23:39 They went into exile among the nations of the world. The House of Judah remains a visible entity, but the House of Israel is lost to our knowledge – only to be identified when all twelve tribes are gathered into the Land. Isaiah 11:11-12, Romans 9:24-26

Into Judah, God sent His Son, Jesus, to clearly tell all who would listen how to live righteously in God’s sight.
But; In order to atone for men’s sins, there has to be a sacrifice.
Jesus made that sacrifice for all those who accept Him as saviour, by His death on the Cross. He also demonstrated God’s power over death and Lucifer/Satan, by rising to life again.

Now, nearly two thousand years later, most of Judah still refuse to recognise the Messiah, but Righteous Israel – those who love God and follow in His ways – await their redemption. Soon the Promised Land will be cleared of all wicked peoples, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, and His Christian people will gather in it with great joy and gladness. Isaiah 35:10.
Some years later Jesus will Return and take up His throne of world dominion. Only those who have proved their faith and trust in Him , will go into the Millennium.
After the thousand years has ended, God will sit on His Great White Throne and Judge Satan, his minions and every human who has ever lived. His jury, of humans who have free will and unbiased beliefs, will confirm His Judgment and the sentence of the guilty.
All the unrighteous and ungodly will go into the Lake of Fire, a euphemism for annihilation, and those whose names are found in the Book of Life will become immortal, as Paul Prophesies in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.

The amazing state of Eternity is described in Revelation 21 to 22 It will be Gods heaven on a new earth.
Nothing unclean or false, shall enter. Only those whose Names are inscribed in the Book of Life. Revelation 21:27

 

[keras]

Ignore and start another thread, The common response to a post of Bible truths which don't suit peoples set beliefs.

If anyone is interested, I have 2 more parts to my article in #249.

 

[oikonomia]

Ignore and start another thread, The common response to a post of Bible truths which don't suit peoples set beliefs.

If anyone is interested, I have 2 more parts to my article in #249.

You invite ignoring you with certain comments of a dismissive and disrepectful nature.

It seems to be on purpose to me to sweep other posters off to the corner.

 

[oikonomia]

There is no need to start another thread on this subject.
I accept disagreement. But I don't see any that is as convincing as what I pointed out.

Walking backwards from Revelation 13 just a few logical steps,
we see that the catching up of the man-child to God and His throne results in the GT.
"Brothers" "they" "thier" "them" in 12:9,10 all mean the man-child.

Dispute is over what that man-child represents I have read and considered.
I don't see a case for it being only Jesus.
I don't see a case for it being Jews left on earth.
I don't see a good case for it as anything except a remnant of God's people from
the larger total body of His people.