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I struggle with...

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Kenny'sID

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My experience is that, even when presented with evidence that makes it totally obvious that mainstream science has generally got things right, people will go to extraordinary, fantastical lengths to deny its conclusions and cling to the account written by one particular little pre-scientific tribe many centuries ago.

While the exact same thing can be said about those that choose to "think" they have totally obvious evidence instead of them seriously considering something totally obvious/sensible that came way before their opinion of what is evidence.

I've seen the evidence you present more than once cross this site, and it simply does not prove evolution...no one here can do that. Then you say I cannot prove God either, as if the evidence isn't overwhelming from the time we open our eyes in the morning. But say we had no evidence either way, the common sense conclusion of a creator makes 100% more sense than "it just happened"

As a cop out, the evolutionists continue to hold to the idea that the beginning of life has nothing to do with the evolution process when it may well be the most important proponent. Not only is the beginning part of any process, It would tell us if we have reason to consider anything less than a creator to begin with. Yet one school of thought considers the beginning depending on they "don't know", or of all things coming out of nothing, something we have never seen happen, while we see things created all the time.

People refuse to acknowledge there is a God, make up the darnedest things to explain an alternative they can allow themselves to believe, then on top of all that, they pat themselves on the back for being part of the more advanced generation...smarter than those of the past and the small minded of the present, when in my view, for the very simple reasons I mentioned, they are far from it.

So, for those who do, laugh at the simple mindedness of the Christian while you can, pat yourselves on the back for being intellectually superior, and don't worry about it. I mean why try to convince people that choose to be ignorant? just leave us in it, that is unless there is some other reason why you need to convince us.

Believe it or not we'll all find out in the end, so if you are satisfied there is no God, then relax... thing is, you don't relax, but instead constantly try to reinforce your beliefs.
 
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Monna

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A man wakes up, and turns to his wife, and says, I'm dead!
His wife looks at him like he's nuts, and says, surely you're not dead.
The man says, of course I'm dead, look at me!

The man continues throughout his day, believing he is dead, when finally his wife convinces him to have a psych eval.
He does so, and the doctor looks at him, and trys to convince the man of one thing, only living people bleed.
Corpses do not bleed, and the doctor shows the man all the evidence he can, save cutting the man to show blood.
And the man finally concedes, and says, ok, only living things bleed.

The doctor finally plunges a pin into the man, to draw blood.
Stunned the man looked at it, in deep reflection and finally says... Great scott! I guess dead things bleed too!

No amount of evidence will ever convince the unwilling.

A nice story. But the lesson cuts both/all ways. We believe what we want to believe. While some will say "Seeing is believing, " the inverse is also true "Believing is seening."

When I was young, and was taught the creationist 6-day account in Genesis, there were a number of important implications, and those who taught me did so from their own perception of God - this perception being partly what they had received from their parents and teachers, and partly what they found attractive to believe. The Bible scholars among them also felt impelled to present a consistent understanding of the nature of God as presented throughout the Bible. (The specific processes by which the Bible came to be, and how different concepts developed through time, was never presented or explained.) From what I can today put together of this, which may help answer the original question I would say the following:
Literal creationists believe as they do (and I admit there are variations among them) because:
- their view of God includes his omnipotence - he is the almighty and as such possesses infinite energy. As such, Einstein's conclusion that matter and energy are interchangeable does not negate God's ability to say the word and transform some of his energy into matter. In fact it confirms it.
- their view of God, as presented elsewhere in the Bible, is that he is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is immutable. So when Genesis talks of creatures reproducing "each after its kind" this aspect of creation (as they see it) is entirely consistent with God's only unchangeable nature.
- their view of God is that he is creative, in the true sense, being able to produce not only something out of nothing (i.e. materially) but also something that is not like anything else before. This doesn't jibe well with the idea of chancey natural selection. Nor does it fit well with general ideas of God being in total and minute control and following a preordained plan.
- the idea of God saying the word and the creature appearing, is for them something that supports their conception of his transcendence of normal processes of nature - the miraculous, the stupendous, the awe-inspiring, the (if you will) unbelievable. This enhances, in their minds, his glory as well as his power.
- the idea that on the sixth day, God did something a little differently, taking time to fashion mankind out of clay, and in the second account, fashioning Eve from one of Adam's ribs, is also consistent with other bible verses that place humankind in a very special light with respect to the creation.
"(NIV)Psalm 8: 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?
5 You have made them a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet:
7 all flocks and herds,
and the animals of the wild,
8 the birds in the sky,
and the fish in the sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas.
9 Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!
Most ordinary creationists are not (I would argue) specifically or intentionally believing this because they want to legitimise the rampant rape of the world by human kind, but this aspect of creation is used by some Christians to behave as it they have a God-given right to treat the rest of the creation anyway they like, or at least not to actively curtail acts that destroy the environment and drive other creatures into extinction. (In fact, given the creationist's reasoning and claims to follow the bible literally, there is an amazing blind spot to the idea that God has made mankind accountable for the care of his earth - that's a different story).
- the story's portrayal of Adam and Eve being the original couple, told to multiply, is also bound up with the 'normal' evangelical Christian view of God's will for the family unit, explicitly consisting of a heterosexual couple, with children.
- the story presents a "proper" hierarchy - God, Man, Woman, other creature. The story of the Fall that follows is basically one in which a creature (the serpent) convinces the woman to eat the fruit, she convinces the man, and together they rebelled against God. The humans think they have taken a place (at the top) that only God had and have usurped his place, while in fact they have made themselves subservient to the creature. They have allowed "the animal" in them to usurp "the spiritual" and turned God's order upside down. (This incidentally, ties in with other parts of the Bible, that insist that until there is willingness within a person's mind to truly open itself to God, there is no way that person will be able to understand God. Believing is the key to seeing!)
- the creationist account of direct detailed creation places God outside and beyond the creation itself. In entrusting humankind with the care of the creation, he also makes a clear distinction between humans and the rest (as above), with several other implications for attitudes towards other religions: there is only one God (a triune God came much later in religion's development); creation is not part of God; nor are each and every species or creature a god in itself; and conversely, God is not like any creature, including humankind, - i.e. God is not a superhuman, he is beyond our capacity to truly and wholly know; nor has God created the universe and all in it and then abandoned it to its own fate - rather he was eminently satisfied with what he did (he saw that it was very good), loved and loves it, and continues to be very interested and active in what happens to it. Many of the early scientists (and many today) pursue(d) their professions because they were very curious to explore the hidden workings of God in natural sciences. When Christians speak of their relationship with God, it is precisely this active participation in world/personal affairs that they are talking about. Their belief (as a basic premiss) gives them a perspective that sees God's working in them and around them, so often and so consistently, that they cannot statistically accept it as coincidence or chance.

Hopefully this will give you some simple reasons why some creationists hold the beliefs they do. I cannot speak for any or all of them, on this thread or elsewhere, and no doubt some here will object to what I have written. And make clarifications.

For myself, when I read the verse that underpins many Christians' confidence in the inerrancy of the Bible (All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...) I pay careful attention to the rest of the verse,which says what the scriptures are good and profitable for. In the list there is no mention of scientific or historical accuracy, geology, cosmology, biology, archeology or anything in what we call the sciences today. And therefore, I have ceased to see creationism versus any other account of creation as an issue for myself. Instead I focus on the deeper meanings of the text and find it has a lot for me in my daily life.
 
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Monk Brendan

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For even a single cell to just form would be phenomenal, but for what we are today to just happen?
Correction, it's impossible.

God is able to do anything, and I think you'll agree with me on that point, then NEVER say that something is impossible. If God wanted it to happen, you might call it miraculous, but never impossible. Can you agree with me on that?

(Careful what you say. If you say yes, then it is opening up the thin edge of the wedge to full blown evolution. If you say no, they you are denying God's ability to do anything.)

But to come back to the point of creating a single cell, when God created the heavens and the earth, then, to keep things operating, He would have had to create a bunch of single celled organisms. Worms in the ground, snakes, insects (even the Anopheles Mosquito), all were put here on the earth before God created man, a multi-celled organism.
 
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Wolfe

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God is able to do anything, and I think you'll agree with me on that point, then NEVER say that something is impossible. If God wanted it to happen, you might call it miraculous, but never impossible. Can you agree with me on that?
I was saying in terms of the secular worldview, a single cell of any kind would have been impossible.
I don't know how God did it, I don't really care, just that he did it.

If that way is evolution, fine, I don't adhere to evolution, but that isn't religion based.
If that way was creation, fine again.
 
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Wolfe

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Sam91

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@Barry Desborough
At the beginning of my Christian walk I believed that Genisis was a metaphor. However, I now know that God is all powerful. I also know that He wirks in my life and the lives of Christians all over the globe, that is a huge feat.

So He infact could have done it in one literal week. I choose to believe the Bible. I have heard other Christians say that a day in the bible is sometimes a Thousand years so they believe that.

I trust that Genesis is accurate out of choice. The odds of God creating everything in a single week is a lot less and far more believable than everything occuring by itself. That to me must be statisticly impossible.
 
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Kenny'sID

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God is able to do anything, and I think you'll agree with me on that point, then NEVER say that something is impossible. If God wanted it to happen, you might call it miraculous, but never impossible. Can you agree with me on that?

(Careful what you say. If you say yes, then it is opening up the thin edge of the wedge to full blown evolution. If you say no, they you are denying God's ability to do anything.)

Then how bout I just say, sure, God can do anything, he already said what he did and evolution wasn't it...period.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Then how bout I just say, sure, God can do anything, he already said what he did and evolution wasn't it...period.

And I guess that you believe He created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, right?
 
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chriscomplex

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...trying to understand the creationist mentality. I've been struggling with this for years. Is anyone prepared to give an honest, clear explanation as to why they believe in creationism?
Yes.

You see Christians must uphold the creation story, because without it there would be no fall and no need for Jesus to die for their sin nature.
 
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mnorian

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This thread has been closed
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Carry on.
 
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Paidiske

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MOD HAT ON
This thread has been moved to the Creation & Evolution forum. It has also had a clean.
Please note the Statement of Purpose of this forum, and CF's rules on flaming.
I do not wish to have to struggle with further posts which break the rules.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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AV1611VET

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...trying to understand the creationist mentality.
It's really quite simple:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created ...

There you have it! It's so easy, a child can understand it.
Barry Desborough said:
I've been struggling with this for years.
The struggle is not with evolution, per se; the struggle is with God -- as even theistic evolutionists are creationists.
Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism, or evolutionary creationism ...

SOURCE

So anyone who believes in God is a creationist in the broadest sense of the term.
Barry Desborough said:
Is anyone prepared to give an honest, clear explanation as to why they believe in creationism?
Yes. I believe in creationism because I believe in God.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why believe something just because the Bible teaches it?
That's how it works, my friend. We subordinate ourselves to the teachings of the Scriptures and then let God lift us up.
 
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AV1611VET

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It's such an alien mentality.
Perhaps that's because God is an alien to you; did you ever think of that?

Did you ever read Chariots of the Gods?, by Erich von Däniken?

If so, why is it he didn't struggle with that mentality, but you do?
 
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AV1611VET

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Using a word like 'faith' doesn't help explain anything. To me, it's just a noise.
Then at least acquire a working definition of the term and go from there.

You can use the dictionary as a start, or you can make a definition up.

I define FAITH as: Believing the Bible, even if science says otherwise.

Failure to have at least a working definition will result in ... as you put it ... noise.
 
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What is alien to me is how anyone can believe a woodenly literal interpretation Genesis.
Jesus believed in a literal interpretation of Genesis; why shouldn't I?
 
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Sorry. This may as well be in a language I don't have. It looks like English, but carries no meaning for me.
Grace is defined as: unmerited favor, or a free gift.

As an acronym, it stands for: God's Riches At Christ's Expense.

There are three major types of judgments from God:
  1. Justice = getting what you deserve
  2. Mercy = not getting what you deserve (Hell)
  3. Grace = getting what you don't deserve (Heaven)
 
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