I need to either find a spouse or learn how to be at peace with being single, how do I do that?

Not David

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Not sure if OP is still following this thread but you say that you are kind of awkward and you want someone who is chaste. Most of that kind of girls are traditional so you will need to improve your personality too since they will be looking for a man who can lead the relationship. Are you ready for that?
 
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Coolbutclueless

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Not sure if OP is still following this thread but you say that you are kind of awkward and you want someone who is chaste. Most of that kind of girls are traditional so you will need to improve your personality too since they will be looking for a man who can lead the relationship. Are you ready for that?


I'm still following the thread.

Its not so much that I'm awkward, I have a social life ( a decent one), I just don't know how to date.

I actually cringe when I hear people talk about "traditional" women. Most of the time what they consider "traditional" is just some weird version of puritan baggage. If we look at the lives of the saints or those in the bible who are women plenty of them are not "traditional" women. I'm looking for a partner, not someone who has to be lead all the time.
 
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Not David

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I'm still following the thread.

Its not so much that I'm awkward, I have a social life ( a decent one), I just don't know how to date.

I actually cringe when I hear people talk about "traditional" women. Most of the time what they consider "traditional" is just some weird version of puritan baggage. If we look at the lives of the saints or those in the bible who are women plenty of them are not "traditional" women. I'm looking for a partner, not someone who has to be lead all the time.
I believe you have a weird idea of "traditional", can you explain what you think about it?
 
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Coolbutclueless

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I believe you have a weird idea of "traditional", can you explain what you think about it?

Ok this is an example. A lot of people who talk about wanting a "traditional woman" and what they want isn't traditional at all. At least not traditional in the sense of orthodoxy.

Generally they want a very submissive wife who doesn't work, stays home, does the housework, is super soft spoken, ect.

Another example one that when I encountered it I was so frustrated I went and had a conversation with my priest and ask him if this was orthodox teaching, because it was being presented as almost dogma. He told me it in no way shape or form was. But the idea that women are to be "under" a man in some way in their life. The priest was teaching that a Man needs to ask the fathers permission to date his daughter. The daughter shouldn't be making the decision on her own. She shouldn't be living on her own AT ALL, and if she has to then it should be with a few other women. These arn't kids we are talking about but full grown women in their mid 20's who are self supporting. I will NEVER ask permission from a father to date his daughter, because I'm looking for someone to marry and raise kids with and if someone isn't mature enough to make their own decisions about who to go get a cup of coffee with then she absolutely isn't mature enough to handle the multitude of decisions involved in raising a child, she isn't a piece of property.

Those are not "Traditional", they are not even christian views. They are cultural views that are toxic. In many cases they are opposed to what the church and scripture teach.

Take a look at this passage from proverbs 31, it describes basically the type of woman someone should be looking for.

She considers a field and buys it;
From her profits she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength,
And strengthens her arms.
18 She perceives that her merchandise is good,
And her lamp does not go out by night.

Further down it also says

24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies sashes for the merchants.
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;
She shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,
And on her tongue is the law of kindness.

And as far as a "traditional" woman goes, thats a problem, Because this is not a housewife. This woman is of her own accord buying business investments, creating products, and selling those products. The modern equivalent would be be a woman who starts up and manages her own small business with a couple employees she has hired. This is a HARD WORKING woman, yes that passage has her doing other stuff, providing for her family's material needs, helping the poor, being kind, ect, but she is ALSO running a business. She is the exact OPPOSITE of the type of person that people are imagining when they speak of a "traditional woman" or a "traditional marriage".

You want to know what "traditional" marriage actually looks like? Historically the husband and the wife worked long grueling hours, generally doing manual labor in a field. If they weren't in a field then the wife was typically part of their husbands business, in many causes even taking over the business when they husband was sick or perished. Household responsibilities were split among them but it wasn't "women do all the cooking and cleaning while men bring home the bacon".

The lives of the saints tell the same story. Look at st. Theodora. She came from basically nothing, but married the man who would become emperor. To straight up quote wikipedia

She shared in his plans and political strategies, participated in state councils, and Justinian called her his "partner in my deliberations."She had her own court, her own official entourage, and her own imperial seal.

When the revolt was happening and everyone (including the emperor) was preparing to flee she is the one who call them all to stand. She said

My lords, the present occasion is too serious to allow me to follow the convention that a woman should not speak in a man’s council. Those whose interests are threatened by extreme danger should think only of the wisest course of action, not of conventions. In my opinion, flight is not the right course, even if it should bring us to safety. It is impossible for a person, having been born into this world, not to die; but for one who has reigned it is intolerable to be a fugitive. May I never be deprived of this purple robe, and may I never see the day when those who meet me do not call me empress. If you wish to save yourself, my lord, there is no difficulty. We are rich; over there is the sea, and yonder are the ships. Yet reflect for a moment whether, when you have once escaped to a place of security, you would not gladly exchange such safety for death. As for me, I agree with the adage that the royal purple is the noblest shroud."

She did the opposite of what a "good traditional woman" would do. She should up, she spoke, she went against the social conventions of the time, she effectively shamed all the officials present (including her husband the emperor) and he speech so moved them that they stayed and they defeated the rebellion. She literally saved the throne. Specifically because she living not as a "traditional" woman but as a CHRISTIAN woman. She was a political powerhouse who got stuff done. She enacted laws to help give women more rights, she also played a major role in the religious upheaval of the time and helped to negotiate between the sides.

She was not a "traditional woman", she didn't have a "traditional marriage", and while she was far from perfect she had a deeply christian mindset and along with her husband is a saint of the church.

Maybe when you say traditional you mean something different that what I'm taking you to mean, but this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine because its so counter to our faith. Women are absolutely not called to be timid and mindlessly obey their husbands. They are called to work with their husbands for the salvation of both of their souls, the same as the husband is called to work with his wife. It is a partnership, not a dictatorship, not one person in power and the other obeying.
 
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Not David

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Ok this is an example. A lot of people who talk about wanting a "traditional woman" and what they want isn't traditional at all. At least not traditional in the sense of orthodoxy.

Generally they want a very submissive wife who doesn't work, stays home, does the housework, is super soft spoken, ect.

Another example one that when I encountered it I was so frustrated I went and had a conversation with my priest and ask him if this was orthodox teaching, because it was being presented as almost dogma. He told me it in no way shape or form was. But the idea that women are to be "under" a man in some way in their life. The priest was teaching that a Man needs to ask the fathers permission to date his daughter. The daughter shouldn't be making the decision on her own. She shouldn't be living on her own AT ALL, and if she has to then it should be with a few other women. These arn't kids we are talking about but full grown women in their mid 20's who are self supporting. I will NEVER ask permission from a father to date his daughter, because I'm looking for someone to marry and raise kids with and if someone isn't mature enough to make their own decisions about who to go get a cup of coffee with then she absolutely isn't mature enough to handle the multitude of decisions involved in raising a child, she isn't a piece of property.

Those are not "Traditional", they are not even christian views. They are cultural views that are toxic. In many cases they are opposed to what the church and scripture teach.

Take a look at this passage from proverbs 31, it describes basically the type of woman someone should be looking for.



Further down it also says



And as far as a "traditional" woman goes, thats a problem, Because this is not a housewife. This woman is of her own accord buying business investments, creating products, and selling those products. The modern equivalent would be be a woman who starts up and manages her own small business with a couple employees she has hired. This is a HARD WORKING woman, yes that passage has her doing other stuff, providing for her family's material needs, helping the poor, being kind, ect, but she is ALSO running a business. She is the exact OPPOSITE of the type of person that people are imagining when they speak of a "traditional woman" or a "traditional marriage".

You want to know what "traditional" marriage actually looks like? Historically the husband and the wife worked long grueling hours, generally doing manual labor in a field. If they weren't in a field then the wife was typically part of their husbands business, in many causes even taking over the business when they husband was sick or perished. Household responsibilities were split among them but it wasn't "women do all the cooking and cleaning while men bring home the bacon".

The lives of the saints tell the same story. Look at st. Theodora. She came from basically nothing, but married the man who would become emperor. To straight up quote wikipedia



When the revolt was happening and everyone (including the emperor) was preparing to flee she is the one who call them all to stand. She said



She did the opposite of what a "good traditional woman" would do. She should up, she spoke, she went against the social conventions of the time, she effectively shamed all the officials present (including her husband the emperor) and he speech so moved them that they stayed and they defeated the rebellion. She literally saved the throne. Specifically because she living not as a "traditional" woman but as a CHRISTIAN woman. She was a political powerhouse who got stuff done. She enacted laws to help give women more rights, she also played a major role in the religious upheaval of the time and helped to negotiate between the sides.

She was not a "traditional woman", she didn't have a "traditional marriage", and while she was far from perfect she had a deeply christian mindset and along with her husband is a saint of the church.

Maybe when you say traditional you mean something different that what I'm taking you to mean, but this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine because its so counter to our faith. Women are absolutely not called to be timid and mindlessly obey their husbands. They are called to work with their husbands for the salvation of both of their souls, the same as the husband is called to work with his wife. It is a partnership, not a dictatorship, not one person in power and the other obeying.
You are making a lot of strawman about traditional marriage, the example of the saint you presented seems to be that the others weren't following their own roles so she had to step out.

God is the head of Christ yet he is not a dictator or something like that.

Being a traditional wife does not mean being only a housewife (which you make it sound like the worst thing in the world) but also helping the family unit.

I would not agree with your priest since I think men have to know the kind of women he will be married into and the same for the women with the men.

I would think Orthodoxy has more in common with traditionalism than feminism.
 
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bèlla

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I am single and living the lifestyle described in Proverbs 31. The text is describing behaviors she developed over time. It emphasizes her diligence and its benefit to those she encountered.

I an closely associated with many Christian entrepreneurs. Running a business while maintaining a marriage, household, and raising a family with no support is very hard. They don’t have the privilege of extra hands to handle chores or care for children. Everything falls in their lap.

Undertaking the things I have in a season of singleness without a spouse or children is a different reality. My posts sound a lot like that and you can find them in the Singles and Messianic forums. It is easy because I have no demands or responsibilities that compromise my focus. I have years of specialized training and experience for that reason.

Most women pursuing the same are working full-time and rising in the middle of the night to pursue their ventures. This isn’t the norm for anyone. Let alone a Christian woman. And it isn’t a lifestyle or pace most could keep up for long.

I don’t think the bible ever expected every woman to live that way. There’s a reason she isn’t referenced in the New Testament and why the words were addressed to a king. Not the average laborer.

What you’re speaking of takes time and planning. You’d need to prepare that in advance to marriage to guarantee a smooth transition and minimize the stress. I’m doing it with my daughter. But that isn’t the path for everyone.

I think its equally fine for a woman to devote her energy to marriage and family. If you’ve never juggled the demands you can’t know what you’re asking. I worked 80+ hours each week while raising a child. Most times it was 7 days and I took a taxi both ways. Sometimes I cooked and others I brought home dinner. I volunteered, attended cultural events, and dated too. I was always going.

That isn’t the life for everyone. I am a traditional woman who prefers male-led relationships. My gifts don’t diminish that truth nor do theirs. Perhaps a stay at home wife isn’t for you. But I wouldn’t call her choice untraditional. She’s chosen a noble path.
 
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ArseniusTheSilent

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Far too many people who talk about traditional marriages seem to refer to what the man should be to the women and utterly ignore the second half, what a man is supposed to be to a women. The scripture describes both sides of that relationship and it often gets ignored.
 
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Coolbutclueless

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You are making a lot of strawman about traditional marriage, the example of the saint you presented seems to be that the others weren't following their own roles so she had to step out.

God is the head of Christ yet he is not a dictator or something like that.

Being a traditional wife does not mean being only a housewife (which you make it sound like the worst thing in the world) but also helping the family unit.

I would not agree with your priest since I think men have to know the kind of women he will be married into and the same for the women with the men.

I would think Orthodoxy has more in common with traditionalism than feminism.

I am single and living the lifestyle described in Proverbs 31. The text is describing behaviors she developed over time. It emphasizes her diligence and its benefit to those she encountered.

I an closely associated with many Christian entrepreneurs. Running a business while maintaining a marriage, household, and raising a family with no support is very hard. They don’t have the privilege of extra hands to handle chores or care for children. Everything falls in their lap.

Undertaking the things I have in a season of singleness without a spouse or children is a different reality. My posts sound a lot like that and you can find them in the Singles and Messianic forums. It is easy because I have no demands or responsibilities that compromise my focus. I have years of specialized training and experience for that reason.

Most women pursuing the same are working full-time and rising in the middle of the night to pursue their ventures. This isn’t the norm for anyone. Let alone a Christian woman. And it isn’t a lifestyle or pace most could keep up for long.

I don’t think the bible ever expected every woman to live that way. There’s a reason she isn’t referenced in the New Testament and why the words were addressed to a king. Not the average laborer.

What you’re speaking of takes time and planning. You’d need to prepare that in advance to marriage to guarantee a smooth transition and minimize the stress. I’m doing it with my daughter. But that isn’t the path for everyone.

I think its equally fine for a woman to devote her energy to marriage and family. If you’ve never juggled the demands you can’t know what you’re asking. I worked 80+ hours each week while raising a child. Most times it was 7 days and I took a taxi both ways. Sometimes I cooked and others I brought home dinner. I volunteered, attended cultural events, and dated too. I was always going.

That isn’t the life for everyone. I am a traditional woman who prefers male-led relationships. My gifts don’t diminish that truth nor do theirs. Perhaps a stay at home wife isn’t for you. But I wouldn’t call her choice untraditional. She’s chosen a noble path.

Far too many people who talk about traditional marriages seem to refer to what the man should be to the women and utterly ignore the second half, what a man is supposed to be to a women. The scripture describes both sides of that relationship and it often gets ignored.

So one thing I need to probably say about my remark is that it was more than a little emotionally charged. I just get tired sometimes of what people put across as "traditional" when it isn't traditional.

I have absolutely NO problem with the idea of a woman being a housewife and raising children at home. My problem is with the idea that a housewife is somehow a more Godly way of living than a woman who works a job. Or the idea that the man HAS to make more money than her. Look if end up marrying someone and she ends up making a lot more than me I don't really care as its unimportant.

I think the most important thing is that both spouses put effort into the relationship, make major decisions together, and mutually respect each others strengths and tries to supplement the others weaknesses. Both need to be intimately involved in the raising of the children and taking care of the chores.
 
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bèlla

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My problem is with the idea that a housewife is somehow a more Godly way of living than a woman who works a job. Or the idea that the man HAS to make more money than her. Look if end up marrying someone and she ends up making a lot more than me I don't really care as its unimportant.

As believers we must be willing to move beyond our reactions to offensive statements to get to the hidden issues they spring from. It is very easy to write someone off when we hear unpleasant statements.

But if we’re patient and willing to listen we may discover the reasons behind them aren’t selfish, judgmental, and so on. Oftentimes they’re coping mechanisms for bad events.

God knows what’s best for each. Its important both are yielded to Him and willing to encourage one another to stay the course. We can’t allow biases to become stumbling blocks.

The greater our flexibility the bigger our growth and impact. If you’re comfortable with either it will be a blessing to your spouse. :)
 
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