I need help from Christians well-versed in both philosophy and theology!

[Shaney77]

Haha there he is!! @Shaney77 , 2PhiloVoid and Silmarien are the best 2 philosophers in here who also know their general & Christian theology. I used to mostly think that philosophy & Christianity were opponents until mixing it up with those 2. Just to let you know however, you should probably create a new thread because after awhile Mods usually come in here to remind members that this section is only for introductions. Welcome to the forum!

I hope both can help me! That's great.

Is it possible to move the whole thread over? I don't really know where to put it.

 

[Shaney77]

Yep. Keep in mind that the only verses that talk of such a thing are in Revelation. Revelation is a vision and is all metaphore. The churches are not really lampstands, Jesus is not really a lamb, and the second death is not really a lake of fire. The lake of fire indicates that your soul will be destroyed. It is why that analogy is used. What happens to a living thing you throw into a lake of fire? It is reduced to ashes. It is no more. That is the image Revelation is projecting. And every time Jesus talked of hell, he did not say "hell". It is a made up word in english. He talked of an actual place that exists to this day. Gehenna. Again, it is an analogy or parable. It is a place where the rulers would sacrifice babies by throwing them into a fire. And when Jesus talks of the fire that is not quenched and the worm that does not die, he's saying that the two of them would do their job. And this is because a lot of animal corpses did not fully decompose there. Also, that worm/fire thing directly quotes the old testament when talking about dead corpses.

It's all really pretty simple. The body dies and is called the first death. The soul dying is called the second death. If you are born again, you have an eternal spirit (that is what was born) and you will live in eternity with Jesus. IF you don't, you don't. It is exactly what He warned Adam of way back in Genesis 3. Death. But Jesus came to "undo it" for those that accept His free gift. And that is basically the Gospel message

That is really interesting! Thank you for taking the time and explaining it to me.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I can see that... I am definitely in the sinner category. I think it was something about the sinner not being "ready" to see God since it would negatively affect their degree of humbleness? Maybe he means a slow growth is needed. Sanctification is somewhat related. And immature Christians needing milk instead of solid food? Those things may be unrelated. I also wonder about how we can have faith if God is totally obvious.

I used to be an atheist....if you see yourself asa sinner you are half way home....don’t waste time going around the neighborhood trying to act like Jesus.....unless perhaps if somebody strikes you , you will gladly offer the other cheek.....God is not not interested in “spiritual IMMITATION “. He is interested in “spiritual FRUITION”
It is vital to remember that “anybody can come to God,but NO ONE comes lest the Spirit call him” The initiative is in God’s hands ,not yours.....I suggest you read the Sermon on the Mound and then the first two chapters of Romans.Please let me know how it goes.......and get a Bible easy to read

 

[Halbhh]

I really like your approach here!

Back when I was younger, I tried to live for Christ, but it always felt so burdensome... There was all of this difficult "stuff" I felt he was telling me to do. For instance, I always had intense urges to share His word with strangers, but I always chickened out for fear of humiliation. Eventually I got very overwhelmed with all of the stuff that Christ might want me to do. The phrase "losing your life for Christ" is a very relevant deal here... If you tried to avoid sinning, your life would be completely gone. In my case, earlier in life, it meant that I was miserable. If I didn't do what I knew was right, in all circumstances, it was sin for me. Anyone who continually sins is not of God, and if you love God, you don't continue sinning - you'll know the elect by their good works.

Gosh, I am off on a rant. So test Jesus' words in my own life and see how I fare.

Yes, we can't really be the way we should be just on our own will power and effort. But His words (the actual words He spoke as recounted in the gospel accounts) have an affect on us, altering our feeling and attitude. Reading what He said with faith in Him is altering. And in time we can learn such things as how He said to pray -- which is so different than most spoken prayers in churches (one has to learn anew, fresh) -- and one is aided/changed by praying as He said to I found also. He is saving us in spite of our being so imperfect and often wrong. I know for sure He is just and merciful to forgive!

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us." -- 1 John chapter 1

So that walking, following Him, includes stumbling at times, but if we confess to God our sins, repenting, He forgives us! How to confess? -- from the heart, and a great example of real confession from the heart is given by Christ to us --

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

See, He is the one saving us. It's present tense -- we are being saved, as we continue to follow Him, over time.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think maybe if things happened to where calling them coincidences would be intellectually dishonest.

Forgive me when I say that I think the idea of "things happening" is kind of a vague statement to make. If "some things" of a seemingly divine nature did happen, it would not only be difficult to sort out the specific significance of it all, but if God just "showed up," or one of His angels just "showed up," that would open a can of worms for which I don't think many of us in today's domesicated lifestyle are prepared for.

In other words, if God proved Himself to you in some kind of super-explicit way, you'll probably need to kiss your present lifestyle--and maybe your life--goodbye. Because, that's typically what's at stake for that kind of thing, biblically speaking. Are you sure you're up for all of this "laying down your life on behalf of Jesus" stuff?

When I was younger and trying to be a good Christian, I'd have a lot of signs like this. I'd pray and ask God to show me a sign if he didn't want me to do a specific thing, and it seemed to work. Nowadays I'd call this confirmation bias. We see what we are expecting to see. We are what our thoughts are. We're more open to seeing something if we commit our precious time to it, and that is because we are chin-deep in historical dedication.

From your description of it, it sounds like you had a much more charismatically oriented belief set than I've ever had. By contrast, I tend to assume that I'm lucky (or blessed) if I get to have just another, ordinary day. Moreover, I can't say that I've ever had what would amount to as a 'supernatural experience.'

Another point here is that I don't know if it's even Biblical to test God in this way. I don't know if it's Biblical to say that he even works on earthly affairs now.

As to the first statement, it probably isn't 'biblical' to test God, and you probably already know this since you sound fairly savvy about the things of faith. But as to the second statement, I'm inclined to think God does work within earthly affairs, but He tends to do so at the 'micro' level, involving His influence within the orchestration of everyday occurrences.

So, what philosophy and theology have you studied thus far? You made it sound kind of substantial.

 

[Dirk1540]

I hope both can help me! That's great.

Is it possible to move the whole thread over? I don't really know where to put it.

You can create a ticket with the Mods and ask, they do move threads over all the time.

Who knows maybe they won't even bother you at all.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Yes, we can't really be the way we should be just on our own will power and effort. But His words (the actual words He spoke as recounted in the gospel accounts) have an affect on us, altering our feeling and attitude. Reading what He said with faith in Him is altering. And in time we can learn such things as how He said to pray -- which is so different than most spoken prayers in churches (one has to learn anew, fresh) -- and one is aided/changed by praying as He said to I found also. He is saving us in spite of our being so imperfect and often wrong. I know for sure He is just and merciful to forgive!

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us." -- 1 John chapter 1

So that walking, following Him, includes stumbling at times, but if we confess to God our sins, repenting, He forgives us! How to confess? -- from the heart, and a great example of real confession from the heart is given by Christ to us --

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

See, He is the one saving us. It's present tense -- we are being saved, as we continue to follow Him, over time.

Great post!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

Where did Pascal say this specifically? But even if he did say this in the way that you think he did, did Jesus and the Apostles also say that you can't be moral without the Holy Spirit's help?

Moreover, you might consider the possibility that your being here, asking about how this 'conundrum' might be resolved, may also be a 'move' of the Holy Spirit to nudge you toward the light.

 

[Petros2015]

I can see that... I am definitely in the sinner category. I think it was something about the sinner not being "ready" to see God since it would negatively affect their degree of humbleness?

Perhaps. Disregard the fear of hell or the promise of heaven for a moment. Jesus said that 'it was the sick who needed a doctor.' Simply put, do you want to get better? If Christ was the Son of God, would you choose to follow? Or flee away?

As far as being ready to see God, Christ said no man comes to the Father save through me.

John 14:6

So... are you interested?

He put a lot of things on the table. If he wasn't who he said he was, those things mean nothing and he didn't have the authority to offer them. If He was who he said He was, they mean everything, and He did have the authority to offer them.

He said that there was something fundamentally wrong with the spirit of humanity, that it needed rescuing.

John 3:19-21

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

And he walked around speaking truth and doing miracles. People felt threatened. And for these things, we crucified Him. So it seems to me, he was correct about what He said.

And now it comes to the Resurrection.

Most people, when you kill them, they stay dead. But if he resurrected, then He was who He said He was. And when He says He offers eternal life, He means it, and He has shown He has the power to give what He offers. What does He ask? Repent, believe, worship, follow.

It's a different world. The Cross is the invitation. It's not inviting you to "be a better person". It's not there for fire insurance against a God you don't really believe in or acknowledge. It's inviting you to become something totally different.

John 1:11-13

11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name,
He gave the right to become children of God —
13 children born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but born of God

 

[Dirk1540]

I've came across this line of thinking before. I dearly hope you're correct!

The claim that Hell was just inserted into the Bible is to just make the Bible a grab bag for you to pick what you like and leave the rest. That would be throwing technical fields like textual criticism out the window in exchange for everyone just honoring their hunches. Now, we DO KNOW that there have been some things tampered with in the Bible THANKS TO textual criticism. So if there was a technical case to be made that Hell was simply added in that would be a different story, but there isn't a case for that.

What you would instead want to do is chew on some interpretation debates, and see which position makes most sense to you. The Bible has a sliding scale of difficulty level for interpretation. The interpretation questions of Hell are certainly higher up on the difficulty scale then basic, easily interpretated cornerstones of the faith such as Jesus was crucified, buried, then rose from the dead.

I often see this really bad habit where a skeptic will say "We're not exactly positive on the interpretation of this?? Ok then, this proves that EVERYTHING is unreliable!!" Even for a secular historian that is bad logic. Anyway, if you want to chew on some various interpretative opinions on Hell check out this thread...

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

 

[Shaney77]

I used to be an atheist....if you see yourself asa sinner you are half way home....don’t waste time going around the neighborhood trying to act like Jesus.....unless perhaps if somebody strikes you , you will gladly offer the other cheek.....God is not not interested in “spiritual IMMITATION “. He is interested in “spiritual FRUITION”
It is vital to remember that “anybody can come to God,but NO ONE comes lest the Spirit call him” The initiative is in God’s hands ,not yours.....I suggest you read the Sermon on the Mound and then the first two chapters of Romans.Please let me know how it goes.......and get a Bible easy to read

The Sermon on the Mount is certainly pretty. I just finished reading it. So it is up to God to convince me of His reality? I shouldn't be doing anything at all?

 

[Shaney77]

Yes, we can't really be the way we should be just on our own will power and effort. But His words (the actual words He spoke as recounted in the gospel accounts) have an affect on us, altering our feeling and attitude. Reading what He said with faith in Him is altering. And in time we can learn such things as how He said to pray -- which is so different than most spoken prayers in churches (one has to learn anew, fresh) -- and one is aided/changed by praying as He said to I found also. He is saving us in spite of our being so imperfect and often wrong. I know for sure He is just and merciful to forgive!

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us." -- 1 John chapter 1

So that walking, following Him, includes stumbling at times, but if we confess to God our sins, repenting, He forgives us! How to confess? -- from the heart, and a great example of real confession from the heart is given by Christ to us --

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

See, He is the one saving us. It's present tense -- we are being saved, as we continue to follow Him, over time.

Maybe I never read the Bible enough before. I did some! But maybe it wasn't with the right attitude like you mention here. I believe I did confess my sins, but I was stuck in habitual sin, so it felt wrong to keep confessing the same sin, you know? It got frustrating to not overcome what I wanted to.

 

[Shaney77]

I shall try to get back with everyone else either tomorrow or the next day. I'm suffering from a terrible sinus headache now, so I'm afraid I must go offline. I've read the rest of my responses, and there is quality stuff here.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I'm reluctant to answer due to the stipulations presented in the title, so here are just a few thoughts.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions)

Both you and God are on the same page there...shows he knew exactly what he was doing, and to your credit, if nothing else...smart move to heed the warning.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence.

Should or could not?

"Reason" did it for me. What is more likely for the onset of something so absolutely highly developed as everything in the universe...an accident/something from nothing, or otherwise? It's never really been a question for me that anything other than an supreme being could do that. As I've said before, we see things "created" all the time, just by man if nothing else, and nothing ever came from nothing, by accident, or for no reason at all.

These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made.

In your opinion.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

Not sure who that is, hence, if it is even valid...I'm thinking not, but I will say, I've seen Atheists more moral than some that claim to be Christians.

 

[Dirk1540]

The belief that saves us is a belief of the heart not the mind. You talk in this post about a belief of the mind. A belief of the heart is a determination, a covenant, a conscious decision to give God all that you are and seek Him with all that you hope to ever be.

Saving faith is not intellectual in nature but is only from the heart?

Speaking as a person who is intellectually satisfied with Christianity (but who was a non-believer that took an extremely long time to reach that point) I find that I've kept gravitating towards this belief more & more in my recent past. I 'Logically' grasp this concept, however I seem to be very hard headed at putting it into practice. Christianity to me is totally dominated by the intellectual discussion of it, and as a distant 2nd I practice the peaceful connection to Jesus aspect of it.

Sometimes I almost think that I should start slapping myself in the face until I wake up lol. It's not that I'm saying that the intellectual aspect of Christianity needs to take a hike (no way!), it's just that I have it all upside down...the PRIMARY concern should be your connection to Jesus, and your secondary concern should be technical studies. I continue to have it reversed.

When we give this to God He does something supernatural within us that is really hard to deny or dismiss for we become new, restored, reconciled in a way that only faith/belief can do.

Again, speaking as a non-believer who took forever to become a believer I'm very familiar with viewing these statements from both lenses, from the 'Skeptical' lens and the 'Faith Lens.' I know first hand that this quote sounds completely absurd through the skeptical lens, it sounds like a brainwashing tactic, and it sounds totally void of critical intelligence.

But the crazy thing is that I've experienced it through the other lens, I've experienced this actually working. It does sound logically insane! But the thing is is that it can only be comprehended via experience, not by analytical investigation. It really does sound like a trippy brain teaser, or it sounds like nothing but a cliche or Christian platitude, but it's not it actually does work. Depending on how much of the New Testament you (Shaney77) have read something might be on the tip of your tongue as your reading this, and that would be the term that gets thrown around in the NT called...'Spiritually Discerned.' It is actually a true concept that I have experienced. And before I ever experienced it I thought the term was just an insult to a person's intelligence.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

Hi, there; Hebrews chapter 11 - all about the principle of faith that God rewards - is an excellent guide to the subject you have broached.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I'm reluctant to answer due to the stipulations presented in the title, so here are just a few thoughts.



Both you and God are on the same page there...shows he knew exactly what he was doing, and to your credit, if nothing else...smart move to heed the warning.



Should or could not?

"Reason" did it for me. What is more likely for the onset of something so absolutely highly developed as everything in the universe...an accident/something from nothing, or otherwise? It's never really been a question for me that anything other than an supreme being could do that. As I've said before, we see things "created" all the time, just by man if nothing else, and nothing ever came from nothing, by accident, or for no reason at all.



In your opinion.



Not sure who that is, hence, if it is even valid...I'm thinking not, but I will say, I've seen Atheists more moral than some that claim to be Christians.

I certainly agree with your last sentence......multitudes of what the world considers “good and moral “ people are lost and many “ungodly” like me will make it.did you receive the apology I sent you? I also attempted to answer your question but Ihave not heard a response.....do you remember what thread we had our discussion in? I got so much stuff going on in here and I am too senile to keep everything straight .....God bless
“

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

The Sermon on the Mount is certainly pretty. I just finished reading it. So it is up to God to convince me of His reality? I shouldn't be doing anything at all?

The sermon on the mount is pretty in places,but how about those warning verses about hatred and lust? Jesus threw them in there to show the utter impossibility of reaching Gods true level of “righteousness” by law-keeping.you wisely said you were a sinner,but until we see ourselves as “lost” sinners,we are living in a fool’s paradise. We are sinners who need a Saviour.....that is the starting point of Christianity.that is why I wanted you to read Romans first two chapters and the Sermon on the Mound.i did not recommend them because they were “pretty”...... lol......pray that God will convict your heart that you need a Savior......if you get to the point of conviction by the Holy Spirit where you can cry out like the publican did.....Lord,have mercy on me a sinner...God will ha ve mercy on you and you will be saved. Rom10:13—“anybody that asks to be saved WILL be saved” good works will follow the Salvation experience.Don’t put the cart before the horse.when somebody tells you Jesus Saves— BUT— . Run , don’t walk away! Good luck and may God bless

 

[Little Lantern]

Greetings, and welcome to CF, @Shaney77. May you find godly encouragement, good fellowship, and engaging discussion here.

How on earth can someone magically choose to believe?

There is no magic in God. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, and must be understood spiritually-- not philosophically or even theologically for that matter (John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 2:14,
Acts 4:13). If you desire to come to faith in God, simply humble your heart and ask Him to draw you by His Spirit (Matthew 18:3).

 

[Radagast]

The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

Romans 1:20: For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.

Is it possible to move the whole thread over? I don't really know where to put it.

"Exploring Christianity" is the obvious place.