I need help from Christians well-versed in both philosophy and theology!

[razzelflabben]

I really like your approach here!

Back when I was younger, I tried to live for Christ, but it always felt so burdensome... There was all of this difficult "stuff" I felt he was telling me to do. For instance, I always had intense urges to share His word with strangers, but I always chickened out for fear of humiliation. Eventually I got very overwhelmed with all of the stuff that Christ might want me to do. The phrase "losing your life for Christ" is a very relevant deal here... If you tried to avoid sinning, your life would be completely gone. In my case, earlier in life, it meant that I was miserable. If I didn't do what I knew was right, in all circumstances, it was sin for me. Anyone who continually sins is not of God, and if you love God, you don't continue sinning - you'll know the elect by their good works.

Gosh, I am off on a rant. So test Jesus' words in my own life and see how I fare.

where it is true that the believers life is one without sin, it is equally true that it is about a relationship with the Living God who equips you to live a life without sin. If you were doing it on your own power it explains a lot.

 

[harko]

I've came across this line of thinking before. I dearly hope you're correct!

Me too! I have a problem with governments etc etc I tend to think when the bible was being translated by those in authority it is very possible they invented or deliberately interpetated things to suit themselves!! What I am sure of is that Gods nature was shown to us when he became flesh . Very loving full of goodness and forgiveness . I like to think that even the most vile sinner can be saved because of the blood of Jesus. Therefore eternal damnation doest seem to fit my Gods nature. How could God damn his own creation? God is eternally working for every soul to experience heaven

 

[klutedavid]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

Hello Shaney77.

Is Jesus Christ the ruler of heaven and earth?

The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

God is not hidden.

Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was a throne, the color of blue sapphire; and on that throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. Then I noticed from the appearance of His waist and upward, something like polished bronze that had fire all around and fire within it, and from the appearance of His waist and downward, I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. (Ezekiel 1:26-27)

That man on the throne is Jesus Christ, the authentic ruler of heaven and earth.

 

[Petros2015]

Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person.

Let's take Pascal off the table from the Christian perspective. At least as far as Jesus is concerned, it is not true. Quite the opposite.

Luke 5:31-23

31 Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Now... which category would you place yourself in - the righteous, or the sinner?

 

[Shaney77]

It is. As I recall, he examines pagan ideas about life after death first, such as those in the Iliad. Then he examines Jewish ideas about life after death, such as those in Old Testament and those in the Apocrypha. Then finally, he examines the New Testament and contrast the Christian idea of the resurrection of Christ with pagan and Jewish ideas of a resurrection. It's a great book.

I looked it up on Goodreads and might have suddenly figured out what is wrong with me. It's probably OCD skepticism... I can see myself skimming through the book, finding points that are proven and well-accepted by historians, but asking myself if maybe they made a mistake somewhere. There's always a little doubt in all I come across. For example, I'm very preoccupied with authenticity, and nothing will convince me that a coin bought online is real. I am the person who must dig it straight from the ground, see all sorts of damage on it, find other period items near it, know about an original house foundation is nearby, weigh it, check if it's similar in design to other examples, etc. It's just... my skepticism is out of hand, and I know it, but I can't...seem to...move out in faith, even on high probabilities of accuracy.

 

[Shaney77]

If you don't want to know truth I don't know...truth is important to everything we do. WE can as someone else said "test" for God. I personally believed unto salvation because I was looking for the power I needed to survive and even thrive in an environment meant to kill me. We are all looking for something different that only God can provide...let me ask you what you are looking for?

What am I looking for... hmm. Maybe just happiness. I don't want to die and end up somewhere bad, you know? Yet I am not motivated enough to really search for much. Physical and mental exhaustion plagues me, so it's hard to even respond to everyone here. I get little wisps of inspiration, and then they quickly die away.

 

[Shaney77]

Why is it you can find it within yourself to have some sort of belief in hell but not some sort of belief in Christ?

I guess I am open to the idea of Christ, but because I focus mostly on the "worst," "pessimistic" stuff, I think of hell a lot more than I think of Christ.

 

[Shaney77]

Hello Shaney77.

Is Jesus Christ the ruler of heaven and earth?

God is not hidden.

Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was a throne, the color of blue sapphire; and on that throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. Then I noticed from the appearance of His waist and upward, something like polished bronze that had fire all around and fire within it, and from the appearance of His waist and downward, I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. (Ezekiel 1:26-27)

That man on the throne is Jesus Christ, the authentic ruler of heaven and earth.

I guess I mean in terms of how, if someone was thrown into this world randomly, grown up, they wouldn't immediately know what was going on. It looks hectic... known freak occurrences such as someone accidentally falling into a hydraulic garbage compactor... Or rows of dead kids' bodies after a war-related gas attack. There is no rhyme or reason here.

 

[Shaney77]

where it is true that the believers life is one without sin, it is equally true that it is about a relationship with the Living God who equips you to live a life without sin. If you were doing it on your own power it explains a lot.

Yes, exactly, the Holy Spirit is supposed to grant you the power to live right. I think?

 

[grasping the after wind]

I guess I am open to the idea of Christ, but because I focus mostly on the "worst," "pessimistic" stuff, I think of hell a lot more than I think of Christ.

I tend to be very much more optimistic about life in general, including the eternal variety, while maintaining skepticism about what people try to tell me they know to be absolutely true. I never give hell a second thought and think about, more like talk to than think about actually , Christ a lot. I am fairly certain that, despite my faults and the innumerable times I have fallen short of the mark, God is not mad at me and won't leave me stranded in a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. As someone said earlier , though, I probably ought not be discussing these things here as it is the place for welcoming. You ought to go an area of this site that is designed for these kind of discussions to get more feedback on your thoughts.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

Hello Shaney77! It sounds to me like you're in a similar epistemological place to the one that I am in. However, I'm wondering why a supernatural occurrence would convince you?

 

[Shaney77]

Let's take Pascal off the table from the Christian perspective. At least as far as Jesus is concerned, it is not true. Quite the opposite.

Luke 5:31-23

31 Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Now... which category would you place yourself in - the righteous, or the sinner?

I can see that... I am definitely in the sinner category. I think it was something about the sinner not being "ready" to see God since it would negatively affect their degree of humbleness? Maybe he means a slow growth is needed. Sanctification is somewhat related. And immature Christians needing milk instead of solid food? Those things may be unrelated. I also wonder about how we can have faith if God is totally obvious.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Yes, exactly, the Holy Spirit is supposed to grant you the power to live right. I think?

That is a debatable proposition. By his own admission, Paul never seemed to get that power. He surely had the Holy Spirit right there with him.

 

[Shaney77]

I tend to be very much more optimistic about life in general, including the eternal variety, while maintaining skepticism about what people try to tell me they know to be absolutely true. I never give hell a second thought and think about, more like talk to than think about actually , Christ a lot. I am fairly certain that, despite my faults and the innumerable times I have fallen short of the mark, God is not mad at me and won't leave me stranded in a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. As someone said earlier , though, I probably ought not be discussing these things here as it is the place for welcoming. You ought to go an area of this site that is designed for these kind of discussions to get more feedback on your thoughts.

I wish I could have your optimism with eternal things. It'd be hard for me to do so because I find that it's safest to always expect the worst: when the worst happens, it doesn't hurt as much. Strangely, there are two areas where I am optimistic, and those are with finding a nice life partner and eventually getting the career I want. Why it's this way, I do not know. Eternal damnation is more important than those things, but I just feel doomed. Maybe it's me being selfish.

I think the intro here is a fine place to talk. I can't keep up with the responses as it is!

 

[Almost there]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

I actually strongly relate to your conundrum. This will clear a lot of it up:
jewishnotgreek.com.

The bible does not teach that a torturous hell awaits. It teaches that if you do not choose to receive the free gift of God's grace, you will live 'till you die. And then your soul also dies. i.e. you perish.

Jesus calls us to follow him because we desire to have a relationship with our maker, not because we're scared to death of what he's going to do to us if we don't.

 

[Shaney77]

Hello Shaney77! It sounds to me like you're in a similar epistemological place to the one that I am in. However, I'm wondering why a supernatural occurrence would convince you?

I think maybe if things happened to where calling them coincidences would be intellectually dishonest. When I was younger and trying to be a good Christian, I'd have a lot of signs like this. I'd pray and ask God to show me a sign if he didn't want me to do a specific thing, and it seemed to work. Nowadays I'd call this confirmation bias. We see what we are expecting to see. We are what our thoughts are. We're more open to seeing something if we commit our precious time to it, and that is because we are chin-deep in historical dedication.

Another point here is that I don't know if it's even Biblical to test God in this way. I don't know if it's Biblical to say that he even works on earthly affairs now.

 

[Dirk1540]

Hello everyone,

I came here to share a personal predicament and hopefully get some life-changing advice.

Basically, I am in a sort of existential crisis. I see myself as a soft agnostic, so I am skeptical of almost everything. To me, there are two very simple reasons that this is a rational stance: expert disagreement and the sheer complexity of existence. I want to know the ultimate truth of reality, but I don't see how anyone could possibly ever know such a thing.

The main reason this is so pressing is because of the Christian hell threatening me (not to mention "hells" of other religions).

Christianity says that if you don't "believe," you perish. How on earth can someone magically choose to believe? Sure, I can go to church, talk with believers, pray, and "live the life," but rather than this bringing about evidence of something real, how is this not merely facilitating psychological manipulated belief? I could do the same with any other religion and end up with some sort of belief in it as well. It'd be due to processes such as wish fulfillment and confirmation bias.

No external "evidence" or type of natural theology should convince anyone of God's existence. These areas are hotly debated by elite philosophers on both sides, and no positive ground is ever made. The world is religiously ambiguous and God is essentially "hidden," per major Christian philosophers.

This leaves us to rely on supernatural occurrences from God. I can safely say that only a supernatural occurrence will convince me of anything. Yet how can I somehow get God to grant me this? Pascal seemed to believe that if a person wasn't moral, God would hide himself from that person. I can't possibly be moral without the Holy Spirit's help (per scripture), and the Holy Spirit won't come until belief is had. There is no way to win!

In the end, I wonder if belief will always elude me. Death is scary when of the knowledge that hell might await.

Hello Shaney77! It sounds to me like you're in a similar epistemological place to the one that I am in. However, I'm wondering why a supernatural occurrence would convince you?

Haha there he is!! @Shaney77 , 2PhiloVoid and Silmarien are the best 2 philosophers in here who also know their general & Christian theology. I used to mostly think that philosophy & Christianity were opponents until mixing it up with those 2. Just to let you know however, you should probably create a new thread because after awhile Mods usually come in here to remind members that this section is only for introductions. Welcome to the forum!

 

[Shaney77]

I actually strongly relate to your conundrum. This will clear a lot of it up:
jewishnotgreek.com.

The bible does not teach that a torturous hell awaits. It teaches that if you do not choose to receive the free gift of God's grace, you will live 'till you die. And then your soul also dies. i.e. you perish.

Jesus calls us to follow him because we desire to have a relationship with our maker, not because we're scared to death of what he's going to do to us if we don't.

I will check that site out, thanks! I mostly agree with what you said here. So you believe that the soul will be destroyed rather than existing in eternal fire?

 

[Shaney77]

Me too! I have a problem with governments etc etc I tend to think when the bible was being translated by those in authority it is very possible they invented or deliberately interpetated things to suit themselves!! What I am sure of is that Gods nature was shown to us when he became flesh . Very loving full of goodness and forgiveness . I like to think that even the most vile sinner can be saved because of the blood of Jesus. Therefore eternal damnation doest seem to fit my Gods nature. How could God damn his own creation? God is eternally working for every soul to experience heaven

It certainly does seem true to the character of Jesus. I think what worries me are those verses about how only a "few" will make it and how the road to life is very hard.

 

[Almost there]

I will check that site out, thanks! I mostly agree with what you said here. So you believe that the soul will be destroyed rather than existing in eternal fire?

Yep. Keep in mind that the only verses that talk of such a thing are in Revelation. Revelation is a vision and is all metaphore. The churches are not really lampstands, Jesus is not really a lamb, and the second death is not really a lake of fire. The lake of fire indicates that your soul will be destroyed. It is why that analogy is used. What happens to a living thing you throw into a lake of fire? It is reduced to ashes. It is no more. That is the image Revelation is projecting. And every time Jesus talked of hell, he did not say "hell". It is a made up word in english. He talked of an actual place that exists to this day. Gehenna. Again, it is an analogy or parable. It is a place where the rulers would sacrifice babies by throwing them into a fire. And when Jesus talks of the fire that is not quenched and the worm that does not die, he's saying that the two of them would do their job. And this is because a lot of animal corpses did not fully decompose there. Also, that worm/fire thing directly quotes the old testament when talking about dead corpses.

It's all really pretty simple. The body dies and is called the first death. The soul dying is called the second death. If you are born again, you have an eternal spirit (that is what was born) and you will live in eternity with Jesus. IF you don't, you don't. It is exactly what He warned Adam of way back in Genesis 3. Death. But Jesus came to "undo it" for those that accept His free gift. And that is basically the Gospel message