I give up: I'd rather go backwards, than forwards (in Evolution)

Warden_of_the_Storm

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The topic is personal growth and the adoption of ideas.

Except it's not because Gottservant is, once again, trying to bring everything under a strange umbrella term of 'evolution' which feels includes morality, theology, ethics, religion and everything that isn't a part of biological science.
 
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SkyWriting

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Except it's not because Gottservant is, once again, trying to bring everything under a strange umbrella term of 'evolution' which feels includes morality, theology, ethics, religion and everything that isn't a part of biological science.
That's actually the original use of the word evolution.
Used in medicine, mathematics, and general writing in various senses including "growth to maturity and development of an individual living thing" (1660s). You can't fault somebody for using a word correctly.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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That's actually the original use of the word evolution.
Used in medicine, mathematics, and general writing in various senses including "growth to maturity and development of an individual living thing" (1660s). You can't fault somebody for using a word correctly.

But he's not using the word correctly because in his other threads, which all run the same course, he always refers to biological evolution as being THE evolution that all things must fall under.
Seriously, it's not hard to go and look up his other threads. He's even made a new one.

Truthfully, at this point, I am on the fence on whether you are doing this as a deliberate attempt at trolling or you genuinely do just want to try and defend Gottservant for no real reason other than you want to (which is admittedly quite admirable but also sad).
 
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SkyWriting

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But he's not using the word correctly because in his other threads, which all run the same course, he always refers to biological evolution as being THE evolution that all things must fall under.
Seriously, it's not hard to go and look up his other threads. He's even made a new one.

Truthfully, at this point, I am on the fence on whether you are doing this as a deliberate attempt at trolling or you genuinely do just want to try and defend Gottservant for no real reason other than you want to (which is admittedly quite admirable but also sad).

Or it's all in your head. He and I are not in agreement.
You made false claims about backward evolution and are arguing an armload of feathers in the wind that you are the more noble. I'm trying to show you how to grow (the topic) and you are hitting yourself with a brick.
 
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Freodin

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Yes, and it takes practice.

One simple to learn method is to say
"Yes, and........" at the beginning of every sentance.
Yes, and... it is amazing how you demonstrably keep failing at what you just claimed to be able to do.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes, and... it is amazing how you demonstrably keep failing at what you just claimed to be able to do.
Its a process of self-development, and it works very well.
 
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Freodin

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Its a process of self-development, and it works very well.
Yes, and this is totally obvious. It must be the reason why you are so utterly convinced that you are able to teach others, without being able to show that you can teach others when directly asked about it.

So, yes, and it works. On you. On your self-perception. But somehow it doesn't work on your "students".
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes, and this is totally obvious. It must be the reason why you are so utterly convinced that you are able to teach others, without being able to show that you can teach others when directly asked about it.So, yes, and it works. On you. On your self-perception. But somehow it doesn't work on your "students".
I'm confident you are the expert on me. You are one of many such.
 
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Hans Blaster

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That's actually the original use of the word evolution.
Used in medicine, mathematics, and general writing in various senses including "growth to maturity and development of an individual living thing" (1660s). You can't fault somebody for using a word correctly.

I did not realize it was the 1660s still. Perhaps this is why certain posters in other threads keep insisting to me that America has a king.

Yes, the word "evolution" has many uses as "change" even in science, but used without modifier in this context it is "biological evolution" and only that.
 
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Freodin

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You forgot to start your sentence with "yes, and..." Giving up already?

I'm confident you are the expert on me. You are one of many such.
Yes, and I get my knowledge about you directly from yourself. From your posts. From what you say. And from the reactions of the people around you.
 
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Estrid

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But his own journey. Not one he even is suggesting others follow. And he's right. Life is scientifically impossible. It's so complex that humans will never be able to reproduce it. Anything that can't be duplicated, is impossible. Or at least outside of science.

I often make the statement, of all the "Laws" we have for science, there isn't even one for LIFE. We have not even one rule of law that says life should occur. We have laws and rules and theories for everything else, but none have shown up for why anything would become living.

Heavier than air flight used to be
impossible. So don't be so sure.
Let Bill Gates fund it and be careful
how you bet!
"Impossible" is just another way to put
the old vital force idea, basically that life runs
on magic juice.
Why does it even seem to anyone to need magic?
Lighting and volcanoes turned out natural.
 
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Shemjaza

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Yes, and this is the solution.
I think you are wrong.

When someone makes a definitive statement that is literally false and/or demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of a topic then showing them that they are correct is not a way to have a useful conversation or educate them.

If I am wrong, you can demonstrate your process by agreeing with me... saying yes.
 
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Gottservant

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The difficulty for you guys, is that I do not set out to be "wrong".

When you say "monkeys made human babies", that's the picture in my head - not sundry variations ended up looking human enough. I am not doing this to chide you, from what you have said (about Evolution) that's the clearest picture I can manage, of what you believe.

If you wanted to take the words of Jesus and "evolve" them to fit a more naturalistic paradigm - with talking animals, or something - I would heartily agree; but if you took those same words and changed them to random chaos, as if that was saying something better (no less) I would be offended: you would not have made them intelligible to someone who understands "chaos", 'chaos' by definition cannot be understood! Why else do you think information is so important?

That is the choice "Evolutionists" face: are you adding information to the genome, or not? Are you structuring what you translate, or not?

So yes, to repeat my point: I am not setting out to be wrong - as if Evolution gives me the capacity to negate meaning to a greater degree and I am going for it. I daresay that there is a specific mutation that gets in the way of my being able to communicate more clearly. But the point is, that I am committed to doing Evolution consistently - I am not running from the idea, that certain aspects of my person may need to change for Evolution's sake: Evolution itself claims I am more evolved without wisdom teeth than a great many people (a fact that, for whatever reason, at least one Evolutionist has run from? I mean they literally did not want to agree that Evolution, was "Evolution").

I am not setting out to be wrong. Your whole premise is that it is impossible to be wrong, if it is gradual enough? If then I am consistently not setting out to be wrong, then me or anyone like me, will be able to adapt, with less influence from Evolution's mutations?
 
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Gottservant

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But it is impossible to go backwards in evolution, that is what he's talking about. It's even in his first line of the OP that he doesn't want to evolve: Do you understand this?

If its impossible to go backwards, what are throwbacks?

Seriously, it is an actual phenomenon (not just cultural).

You're pulling my chain, if you think throwbacks are invisible to Evolution!
 
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Gottservant

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This is the thing:

If I repeatedly copy Jesus, does that make me Jesus?

No? So how does repeatedly changing a genome away from something, make it change into something else?

Can you follow that logic? One question is towards an object, one question is away from an object - and both are branches of the same logic?

In other words, if it is possible to change into a human, it is possible to change into something else, but Jesus doesn't change! You can't change into Jesus and then back again!
 
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Shemjaza

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The difficulty for you guys, is that I do not set out to be "wrong".
But you do not take on board when people point out that you have made a mistake.

Unless you make an attempt to learn, you will continue to be wrong.

When you say "monkeys made human babies", that's the picture in my head - not sundry variations ended up looking human enough. I am not doing this to chide you, from what you have said (about Evolution) that's the clearest picture I can manage, of what you believe.

It happens over so many generations that it is impossible to point out the exact generation where "non human ape" becomes "human".

Even Creationists when presented with the hominid family tree can't agree which are human and which are "apes".

If you wanted to take the words of Jesus and "evolve" them to fit a more naturalistic paradigm - with talking animals, or something - I would heartily agree; but if you took those same words and changed them to random chaos, as if that was saying something better (no less) I would be offended: you would not have made them intelligible to someone who understands "chaos", 'chaos' by definition cannot be understood! Why else do you think information is so important?

You are the one creating confusion and chaos here.

When people discuss evolution in the context of "creation and evolution" they are talking about the scientific theory and about the biological history of species, not about theology, Jesus and language.

When you try to bring these topics into the discussion you are distracting from the initial topic.

That is the choice "Evolutionists" face: are you adding information to the genome, or not? Are you structuring what you translate, or not?

Here is an example where you are fundamentally wrong and confusing the discussion.

Evolution is not about individuals adding information to a genome; it is not about choices; it does not even apply to individuals at all.

Language and translations are not relevant to evolution.


So yes, to repeat my point: I am not setting out to be wrong - as if Evolution gives me the capacity to negate meaning to a greater degree and I am going for it. I daresay that there is a specific mutation that gets in the way of my being able to communicate more clearly. But the point is, that I am committed to doing Evolution consistently - I am not running from the idea, that certain aspects of my person may need to change for Evolution's sake: Evolution itself claims I am more evolved without wisdom teeth than a great many people (a fact that, for whatever reason, at least one Evolutionist has run from? I mean they literally did not want to agree that Evolution, was "Evolution").

Evolution is not a choice and is not an action taken by an individual, so being "committed to doing Evolution consistently" is not possible and does not make sense.

Being born with a mutation that led to you never developing wisdom teeth is probably an advantageous trait to have, as it means you are safe from all the dangers and infections that wisdom teeth expose you too... but the concept of being "more evolved" isn't really sensible.

Creatures aren't more evolved than one another, they are just better or worse adapted to their environment.

Regardless, being born with a particular mutation wasn't a choice and isn't an action you took.

I am not setting out to be wrong. Your whole premise is that it is impossible to be wrong, if it is gradual enough? If then I am consistently not setting out to be wrong, then me or anyone like me, will be able to adapt, with less influence from Evolution's mutations?

I don't think anyone has that as a premise.

In the context of evolution individuals do not adapt, species do.

If its impossible to go backwards, what are throwbacks?

Seriously, it is an actual phenomenon (not just cultural).

You're pulling my chain, if you think throwbacks are invisible to Evolution!

What is often referred to as a throw back is an example of ancient traits that are still present in a genome. They have never left, they've just been switched off.

Whales and snakes still have the genes for four legs and birds still have the genes for teeth and maws. Humans can even develop something of a tail.

This isn't an ancient trait that has redeveloped, it's a remnant that was never gone.

This is the thing:

If I repeatedly copy Jesus, does that make me Jesus?

No, and it isn't relevant to evolution in any way.

No? So how does repeatedly changing a genome away from something, make it change into something else?

That's what changing into something is.

In all contexts the more something changes more different from the original state.

Can you follow that logic? One question is towards an object, one question is away from an object - and both are branches of the same logic?

In other words, if it is possible to change into a human, it is possible to change into something else, but Jesus doesn't change! You can't change into Jesus and then back again!

This is once again totally irrelevant to evolution.

It does not apply to individuals and it is not a choice or a behavior of an individual.

Personal choices, religious beliefs and even spiritual transformations would all be irrelevant to evolution.

Evolution is only about statistical changes in genetic traits across populations over generations.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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If its impossible to go backwards, what are throwbacks?

Seriously, it is an actual phenomenon (not just cultural).

You're pulling my chain, if you think throwbacks are invisible to Evolution!

That is called atavism in science, which is, to quote the Wikipedia article on it:
In biology, an atavism is a modification of a biological structure whereby an ancestral genetic trait reappears after having been lost through evolutionary change in previous generations.

Now, this isn't a full on regression, this is simply a genetic trait in an organism being activated in a minute number of individuals by happenstance when in the wider population the gene has become dormant. The best example for humans is the vestigial tail in the coccyx.

So it's not going backwards fully, it's just a small fumble in the DNA.
 
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Gottservant

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You are basically fudging a very easy term to understand.

But I have turned over a new leaf: I no longer need a term of one kind or another, to determine what I share with people - I am simply going to share my best, whatever the consequences may be.

In the end, you will have no reason to insult me and I will have peace with God.
 
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Shemjaza

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You are basically fudging a very easy term to understand.

But I have turned over a new leaf: I no longer need a term of one kind or another, to determine what I share with people - I am simply going to share my best, whatever the consequences may be.

In the end, you will have no reason to insult me and I will have peace with God.
What term are you talking about?

Can you explain how it is being fudged?

Can you explain how you understand it?
 
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