I don't understand...

[oi_antz]

I remember saying the same thing to other non believers when I was a christian and after you asked that question I thought, hmm what was the bible verse or verses that I had to back up that doctrine. As to explaining LastSevens comment and my old beliefs, dead in sins means your spiritually cut off from god and spiritually dead. Only the spirit of god can give someone new spiritual life to those who are dead in sin.

Thanks. Do you think it is constant or does it come and go? What actually constitutes this spiritual life vs death (I mean, how is it recognized), and how is it obtained? BTW, do you think this concept is true, or are you just mocking it?

 

[chrisstavrous]

Thanks. Do you think it is constant or does it come and go? What actually constitutes this spiritual life vs death (I mean, how is it recognized), and how is it obtained? BTW, do you think this concept is true, or are you just mocking it?

Yes if you reject the truth after recieving it you can die again, yeah theres warnings that once you reject god your in serious trouble. As to thinking if that doctrine is true, I am only looking at it being true as one would argue the doctrines of harry potter being true.

 

[oi_antz]

Yes if you reject the truth after recieving it you can die again, yeah theres warnings that once you reject god your in serious trouble. As to thinking if that doctrine is true, I am only looking at it being true as one would argue the doctrines of harry potter being true.

So what are the signs that someone is spiritually alive or dead? If you are saying things that you don't think are true, then you aren't trying to help the OP understand Christianity. What is the purpose of your statements, is it just for gratification?

 

[chrisstavrous]

So what are the signs that someone is spiritually alive or dead? If you are saying things that you don't think are true, then you aren't trying to help the OP understand Christianity. What is the purpose of your statements, is it just for gratification?

Signs? well when you start getting a taste for other peoples brains then your pretty much the living dead (no I kidd) maybe thats something that christians should be carfull judging. As for the comment you said about the op snake75, I was only talking to you about that doctrine.

 

[Snake75]

Sorta confused whats going on now lol

 

[oi_antz]

Sorta confused whats going on now lol

Sorry about that Snake, I just wanted to know how much of this claim was reliable and Chris has said he doesn't take it seriously so I'll just hang on to see what LastSeven says about it.

 

[dhh712]

So your saying Christians need no proof, have no proof and even if they did they would disregard it in favour of faith?

For me personally, I have proof yet it is a subjective proof; I have nothing I can provide for you which can be counted as empirical evidence of God. My proof (one of them, the most significant one to me) is the change which God wrought in my life once He had intervened in it and convicted me of my status as a sinner before Him; obviously, there will not be any physical evidence that God was doing it, and I would imagine most psychiatrists/psychologists would chalk that up to something I did to myself.

From biblical lessons I understand the impact of physical proof of God upon mankind to be transient. God has performed miracles before people, yet the wonder of it wears off after time and they soon return to doubting Him. Personally, and knowing my own weak flesh, I feel that I would be under a huge responsibility which I would not be able to handle if God were to reveal Himself to me in a physical way so that I can perceive Him with one or more of my five senses (I feel, at least as of yet, He has also concluded that I would not be able to handle this).

The purpose of life is not so that all can believe upon God; if that were the purpose of life, then it would be a very frustrating question as to why then God would not reveal Himself in a very obvious way. Belief is an objective quantity: either one does or one does not. Those who put the belief in God as the purpose of this life over the glorification of God do give the unbeliever a very reasonable argument then that a god which would have this as his purpose for this life would not be one which would have very much power or ability in this world.

 

[Snake75]

For me personally, I have proof yet it is a subjective proof; I have nothing I can provide for you which can be counted as empirical evidence of God. My proof (one of them, the most significant one to me) is the change which God wrought in my life once He had intervened in it and convicted me of my status as a sinner before Him; obviously, there will not be any physical evidence that God was doing it, and I would imagine most psychiatrists/psychologists would chalk that up to something I did to myself.

From biblical lessons I understand the impact of physical proof of God upon mankind to be transient. God has performed miracles before people, yet the wonder of it wears off after time and they soon return to doubting Him. Personally, and knowing my own weak flesh, I feel that I would be under a huge responsibility which I would not be able to handle if God were to reveal Himself to me in a physical way so that I can perceive Him with one or more of my five senses (I feel, at least as of yet, He has also concluded that I would not be able to handle this).

The purpose of life is not so that all can believe upon God; if that were the purpose of life, then it would be a very frustrating question as to why then God would not reveal Himself in a very obvious way. Belief is an objective quantity: either one does or one does not. Those who put the belief in God as the purpose of this life over the glorification of God do give the unbeliever a very reasonable argument then that a god which would have this as his purpose for this life would not be one which would have very much power or ability in this world.

My life seemed to have gotten much better after getting rid of the myths I believed in. Yes, I'm young. I know. But, it changed really quickly after I told everyone I was Atheist. Things got better for me.

Name these miracles. The bible doesn't count.

What I really dont like about this post is that you make yourself seem like your weak. That without God you would crumble and die. That is not how you should look at life. Without God you are free.

 

[chrisstavrous]

For me personally, I have proof yet it is a subjective proof; I have nothing I can provide for you which can be counted as empirical evidence of God. My proof (one of them, the most significant one to me) is the change which God wrought in my life once He had intervened in it and convicted me of my status as a sinner before Him; obviously, there will not be any physical evidence that God was doing it, and I would imagine most psychiatrists/psychologists would chalk that up to something I did to myself.

From biblical lessons I understand the impact of physical proof of God upon mankind to be transient. God has performed miracles before people, yet the wonder of it wears off after time and they soon return to doubting Him. Personally, and knowing my own weak flesh, I feel that I would be under a huge responsibility which I would not be able to handle if God were to reveal Himself to me in a physical way so that I can perceive Him with one or more of my five senses (I feel, at least as of yet, He has also concluded that I would not be able to handle this).

The purpose of life is not so that all can believe upon God; if that were the purpose of life, then it would be a very frustrating question as to why then God would not reveal Himself in a very obvious way. Belief is an objective quantity: either one does or one does not. Those who put the belief in God as the purpose of this life over the glorification of God do give the unbeliever a very reasonable argument then that a god which would have this as his purpose for this life would not be one which would have very much power or ability in this world.

I only want proof because truth does not = something which is unverified or disputable subjective experience. Truth = something which has been verified or cannot be disputed.

 

[aiki]

Lol...ToE explains everything quite well. Sure it has soon missing facts. But that's nothing compared to the bible.

It surprises me how certain you are about the ToE when you acknowledge that it has "some missing facts." As I pointed out, those missing facts create insurmountable problems for the viability of the ToE. Just laughing them off as you have shows how little thought you have put into your allegiance to the ToE. You seem to be trusting that the ToE is legit mainly because others think it is. You're a victim of the Lemming Effect in this, I think.

That the ToE "explains everything very well" does not make it true. Merely offering an explanation does not guarantee truth. Liars offer plausible explanations all the time. A good liar can "explain everything very well" but still be lying his face off. Surely, you realize this. Evolutionists must demonstrate that the explanations of the ToE are true, that the ToE corresponds with reality, which, as I've shown, it does not.

It also does not make the ToE less mistaken by comparing it to something you think is more mistaken (the Bible). If Bobby tells three lies and Steve tells ten, are Bobby's three lies somehow not lies anymore because they aren't as many as Steve's lies? Obviously not.

In what regard is the Bible "missing facts," exactly?

Selah.

 

[aiki]

God has performed miracles before people, yet the wonder of it wears off after time and they soon return to doubting Him.

This was not the experience of, say, the apostle Paul or the eleven disciples of Jesus. It was not the experience of King David, or Gideon, or Abraham. I could name others...

Selah.

 

[Snake75]

It surprises me how certain you are about the ToE when you acknowledge that it has "some missing facts." As I pointed out, those missing facts create insurmountable problems for the viability of the ToE. Just laughing them off as you have shows how little thought you have put into your allegiance to the ToE. You seem to be trusting that the ToE is legit mainly because others think it is. You're a victim of the Lemming Effect in this, I think.

That the ToE "explains everything very well" does not make it true. Merely offering an explanation does not guarantee truth. Liars offer plausible explanations all the time. A good liar can "explain everything very well" but still be lying his face off. Surely, you realize this. Evolutionists must demonstrate that the explanations of the ToE are true, that the ToE corresponds with reality, which, as I've shown, it does not.

It also does not make the ToE less mistaken by comparing it to something you think is more mistaken (the Bible). If Bobby tells three lies and Steve tells ten, are Bobby's three lies somehow not lies anymore because they aren't as many as Steve's lies? Obviously not.

In what regard is the Bible "missing facts," exactly?

Selah.

You are very ignorant.You are arguing with yourself basicly. How do you know the Bible is not just another story? The ToE has proven facts and evidence while the bible tells you to kill gay people.


The whole Bible is a mistake. Noah,Adam and eve,Moses,even Jesus is made up of lies and basically plagiarized from other myths.

 

[chrisstavrous]

It surprises me how certain you are about the ToE when you acknowledge that it has "some missing facts." As I pointed out, those missing facts create insurmountable problems for the viability of the ToE. Just laughing them off as you have shows how little thought you have put into your allegiance to the ToE. You seem to be trusting that the ToE is legit mainly because others think it is. You're a victim of the Lemming Effect in this, I think.

That the ToE "explains everything very well" does not make it true. Merely offering an explanation does not guarantee truth. Liars offer plausible explanations all the time. A good liar can "explain everything very well" but still be lying his face off. Surely, you realize this. Evolutionists must demonstrate that the explanations of the ToE are true, that the ToE corresponds with reality, which, as I've shown, it does not.

It also does not make the ToE less mistaken by comparing it to something you think is more mistaken (the Bible). If Bobby tells three lies and Steve tells ten, are Bobby's three lies somehow not lies anymore because they aren't as many as Steve's lies? Obviously not.

In what regard is the Bible "missing facts," exactly?

Selah.

Hmm we have heard your personal beliefs on how science lacks foresight in critical matters, but nothing on your own position about the god of the bible and why its true and a better alternative to the current cosmological arguments. I promise you that I will not be disrespectful to you once I have heard your opinions on why the christian god is true.

 

[aiki]

You are very ignorant.You are arguing with yourself basicly.

Really? How so?

How do you know the Bible is not just another story?

Well, let's see...

1.) The incredible thematic unity of the Bible despite its being written over a span of some 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents by 40 different writers. That the Bible remains a cohesive, thematically-uniform text under such conditions of its creation is quite simply miraculous.
2.) THe Bible is remarkably historically accurate. THe names, dates and locations of events described in the Bible have been proven again and again to be correct - even when initially they appeared to be seriously in error. The nation of the Hittites is a prime example.
3.) THe fulfilled prophecy of the Bible makes it unique among all other religious texts. And these fulfilled prophecies suggest powerfully the divine origins of the Bible.
4.) THe popularity and durability of the Bible. No other religious text has survived as many attempts to see it suppressed and/or destroyed and has enjoyed so wide a distribution and popularity as the Bible.
5.) THe testimony of millions to the transforming power of the truth of the Bible.

And so on. You see, then, that I don't just blindly believe the Bible is the Word of God. I have these reasons and others to be confident that the Bible is what it claims to be.

The ToE has proven facts and evidence while the bible tells you to kill gay people.

The ToE, as I have pointed, is seriously flawed. But why compare it to the Bible when the two things - the ToE and the Bible - are completely different in content and purpose from each other? You might as well be comparing a pickle to a porpoise.

And the Bible does not tell me to kill homosexuals. Obviously, you haven't read it. Maybe you should before you make a fool of yourself by trying to tell me what the book I've been reading for some forty years says.

The whole Bible is a mistake. Noah,Adam and eve,Moses,even Jesus is made up of lies and basically plagiarized from other myths.

These sorts of silly declarations are what come of not knowing what you're talking about. Maybe you should spend more time studying for yourself the facts rather than grabbing piece-meal various erroneous assertions from atheist websites.

More and more you're sounding like a troll...

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Hmm we have heard your personal beliefs on how science lacks foresight in critical matters,

It is not just my "personal belief" that the ToE "lacks foresight"; as I have explained, the ToE has several serious scientific flaws that thoroughly undermine the molecules-to-man view of the ToE. This is not just my personal belief but a fact of the matter.

but nothing on your own position about the god of the bible and why its true and a better alternative to the current cosmological arguments.

I would simply repeat many of the evidences and arguments found at the website(s) I already suggested in this thread. At bottom, though, my belief in God rests, not mainly on these arguments and evidences, but upon my daily experience of God.

I promise you that I will not be disrespectful to you once I have heard your opinions on why the christian god is true.

I have shared my reasons many times with perfectly obnoxious atheists. So, I am not concerned, really, that you are respectful or not. I have developed a pretty thick skin.

Selah.

 

[chrisstavrous]

It is not just my "personal belief" that the ToE "lacks foresight"; as I have explained, the ToE has several serious scientific flaws that thoroughly undermine the molecules-to-man view of the ToE. This is not just my personal belief but a fact of the matter.



I would simply repeat many of the evidences and arguments found at the website(s) I already suggested in this thread. At bottom, though, my belief in God rests, not mainly on these arguments and evidences, but upon my daily experience of God.



I have shared my reasons many times with perfectly obnoxious atheists. So, I am not concerned, really, that you are respectful or not. I have developed a pretty thick skin.

Selah.

Yes I have been to that website as you requested, but I am interested in your views on why the god of the bible is the one who is responsible for all life/salvation. Surely you have opinions other than william graig and you have your own reasons for believing in the bible.

 

[Snake75]

Really? How so?

Well, let's see...

1.) The incredible thematic unity of the Bible despite its being written over a span of some 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents by 40 different writers. That the Bible remains a cohesive, thematically-uniform text under such conditions of its creation is quite simply miraculous.
2.) THe Bible is remarkably historically accurate. THe names, dates and locations of events described in the Bible have been proven again and again to be correct - even when initially they appeared to be seriously in error. The nation of the Hittites is a prime example.
3.) THe fulfilled prophecy of the Bible makes it unique among all other religious texts. And these fulfilled prophecies suggest powerfully the divine origins of the Bible.
4.) THe popularity and durability of the Bible. No other religious text has survived as many attempts to see it suppressed and/or destroyed and has enjoyed so wide a distribution and popularity as the Bible.
5.) THe testimony of millions to the transforming power of the truth of the Bible.

And so on. You see, then, that I don't just blindly believe the Bible is the Word of God. I have these reasons and others to be confident that the Bible is what it claims to be.

The ToE, as I have pointed, is seriously flawed. But why compare it to the Bible when the two things - the ToE and the Bible - are completely different in content and purpose from each other? You might as well be comparing a pickle to a porpoise.

And the Bible does not tell me to kill homosexuals. Obviously, you haven't read it. Maybe you should before you make a fool of yourself by trying to tell me what the book I've been reading for some forty years says.

These sorts of silly declarations are what come of not knowing what you're talking about. Maybe you should spend more time studying for yourself the facts rather than grabbing piece-meal various erroneous assertions from atheist websites.

More and more you're sounding like a troll...

Selah.

1.) Have you ever used Google translate and lets say put the words into polish then Spanish then back into English and the words are not the same as the original. Ya. Thats the bible.

2.) The bible is not historical at all. Simple Google and found this on a religious site on that Hittites thing. gci(Remove).org/bible/torah/hittites

3.)What?

4.)Thats because of the christian crusades who basically killed everyone not Christian

5.)As you said yourself. Numbers dont count.

The ToE is not seriously flawed. It makes a lot of sense. You should pick up a science book more often.


Jeez you should read your own bible too. Leviticus 20:13

I have more examples of the bible telling you to kill people if you wanna see it.

It even says to kill me. An atheist

 

[chrisstavrous]

You are very ignorant.You are arguing with yourself basicly. How do you know the Bible is not just another story? The ToE has proven facts and evidence while the bible tells you to kill gay people.


The whole Bible is a mistake. Noah,Adam and eve,Moses,even Jesus is made up of lies and basically plagiarized from other myths.

I was also told the same thing by atheists when I left christianity, but the bible is not largely plagiarized. There maybe trace elements of other cultures stories or myths in the bible but this is not intentional.

Theres serious lying on both sides and you have to be careful when examining the data, just be open for correction and you wont slip up so often.

 

[aiki]

Yes I have been to that website as you requested, but I am interested in your views on why the god of the bible is the one who is responsible for all life/salvation. Surely you have opinions other than william graig and you have your own reasons for believing in the bible.

I have given you the most fundamental reason for my belief: my daily experience of God. However, the arguments and evidence Dr. William Lane Craig (and many other excellent Christian apologists) propone serve as an important objective basis for my faith, too. If Dr. Craig provides sound, reasonable arguments for my faith why would I not adopt them?

Selah.

 

[chrisstavrous]

I have given you the most fundamental reason for my belief: my daily experience of God. However, the arguments and evidence Dr. William Lane Craig (and many other excellent Christian apologists) propone serve as an important objective basis for my faith, too. If Dr. Craig provides sound, reasonable arguments for my faith why would I not adopt them?

Selah.

You do but that does not make it reasonable, only when we have objectively studied against our own arguments can we say, what I have come to hold as reasonable is sound.