I am a bit mind-blown: if entropy is true, even "Entropy" decays?

[Gregory Thompson]

Not if you want scientific results.

So you want scientific results minus Jesus ... hmmm . okay whatever.

 

[Radagast]

A little off topic tho, since the OP was referring to it's metaphorical application.

I doubt it, but perhaps you can explain the OP, then.

 

[Radagast]

So you want scientific results minus Jesus ... hmmm . okay whatever.

That's a total distortion of what I said.

You can also get theological results by contemplating nature, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I doubt it, but perhaps you can explain the OP, then.

Okay, the Op begins about Entropy and then asks the question "is it Jesus?"

My Question is, why cannot you apply faith to your science?

 

[Radagast]

Okay, the Op begins about Entropy and then asks the question "is it Jesus?"

That wasn't a clarification.

My Question is, why cannot you apply faith to your science?

You seem remarkably fond of unfounded personal criticism. You have absolutely no idea how I do science.

 

[timewerx]

Hi there,

So I don't understand this: "Entropy" must be subject to entropy?

I suppose part of my confusion is "how much", that is: Entropy is subject to entropy, as a word, which is the least possible entropy?

In other words, even though "Entropy" decays, it decays the least of anything in the Universe - "Entropy" the word, is not gone, until the Universe is.

I guess the question is: which of us believing in "Entropy", decays the least? (wait a minute! That would be Jesus?)

I'll keep it simple. Energy cannot just magically disappear or decrease in amount within a completely isolated system.

The only way energy could magically disappear is that:
- We don't exist in a real world
- Some underlying natural Law we have yet to discover
- "Leaking" to a place outside our Universe.

 

[Gottservant]

I'll keep it simple. Energy cannot just magically disappear or decrease in amount within a completely isolated system.

The only way energy could magically disappear is that:
- We don't exist in a real world
- Some underlying natural Law we have yet to discover
- "Leaking" to a place outside our Universe.

Wow.

That blew my mind again.

You mean "Entropy" can only decay, if it is used?

 

[Radagast]

I'll keep it simple. Energy cannot just magically disappear or decrease in amount within a completely isolated system.

Well energy can appear: think of a self-heating heat pack.

But not magically: energy can only appear if there's a change in internal structure (such as a chemical reaction) and/or an entropy increase.

 

[timewerx]

Well energy can appear: think of a self-heating heat pack.

But not magically: energy can only appear if there's a change in internal structure (such as a chemical reaction) and/or an entropy increase.

Sorry, I meant including energy in "Stored" forms like in batteries, even matter.

In context, energy appearing from absolutely nothing or vanishing out of absolute existence.

From one of the Laws - "Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed"

 

[-Sasha-]

I'll keep it simple. Energy cannot just magically disappear or decrease in amount within a completely isolated system.

The only way energy could magically disappear is that:
- We don't exist in a real world
- Some underlying natural Law we have yet to discover
- "Leaking" to a place outside our Universe.

So could it be that the seemingly unavailable energy is still there, but not accessible in a manner we have discovered yet? Or is accessible, but not in a manner we currently recognize? (That we either haven't figured out how to utilize it, or that we do utilize it but in some manner we don't recognize as using energy?)

 

[Kaon]

Entropy is statistical in nature, so it is capable of breaking down, nullifying and blowing up based on the observed state.

Quantum mechanically, entropy of joint systems can have less entropy overall if the states are entangled. You can even have the entropy of a joined state that is zero.

 

[tdidymas]

Hi there,

So I don't understand this: "Entropy" must be subject to entropy?

I suppose part of my confusion is "how much", that is: Entropy is subject to entropy, as a word, which is the least possible entropy?

In other words, even though "Entropy" decays, it decays the least of anything in the Universe - "Entropy" the word, is not gone, until the Universe is.

I guess the question is: which of us believing in "Entropy", decays the least? (wait a minute! That would be Jesus?)

God is not part of the universe, so He isn't subject to entropy. God subjected the universe to decay (Rom. 8:20). He didn't subject Himself to it, therefore Christ is also not subjected to it.

But in the sense of physics, entropy is merely a measurement of decay. When you measure a line with a ruler, you don't say that the ruler did anything to the line. Nor do you say the ruler did anything to itself. It's just a way of measuring something.

So then, there is less entropy each moment that passes, due to the fact that there is less energy right now than a moment ago, to make any change to anything. Entropy is an attempt at measuring the loss of "usable energy", that is, for the transferring of heat or to apply force to an object. The less available energy, the less the loss of it.
TD

 

[Radagast]

God is not part of the universe

True.

But in the sense of physics, entropy is merely a measurement of decay

Not quite. Entropy (symbol S) is a measure of the unavailability of a system's energy to do work.

So then, there is less entropy each moment that passes

Actually, more. Entropy in the universe as a whole keeps increasing.

 

[tdidymas]

True.



Not quite. Entropy (symbol S) is a measure of the unavailability of a system's energy to do work.

Looks like the same thing I said, just different words.

Actually, more. Entropy in the universe as a whole keeps increasing.

I was not talking about total entropy, I was talking about the rate of it, which the OP was talking about ("Entropy" must be subject to entropy? indicates he is thinking of the rate of measurement.)
TD

 

[Radagast]

Looks like the same thing I said, just different words.

I don't think so.

I was talking about the rate of it

You mean the rate of change of entropy? Entropy in the universe as a whole keeps increasing, so the rate of change is positive. This contradicts what you said.

Specific physical and chemical processes have well-defined rates of entropy increase, but that reflects a scientific understanding of entropy. The OP seems to be using "entropy" in some kind of metaphorical sense.

indicates he is thinking of the rate of measurement.

I don't think that he was thinking that. And what is "rate of measurement," anyway?

 

[DamianWarS]

I guess the question is: which of us believing in "Entropy", decays the least? (wait a minute! That would be Jesus?)

the OP is a little confusing, to say the least (perhaps its under a state of entropy).

To focus on the spiritual/biblical Jesus was crucified on a cross and died and this is an example of entropy (nails left holes, he bleed, his breath left him, etc..) 3 days later he rose again but his body was different... how we are not totally sure but his body rose with existing signs of entropy (holes in hand and side were still there) but he was more than just reanimated like a puppet but rose up in a state that he didn't have before.

We are told upon the resurrection believers will rise up with incorruptible bodies which sounds like a body where entropy does not affect it. Entropy spiritually speaking can be liken to death and for Christ it was his death that defeated death and for us it seems to be the same, death then rising up with death defeated so death itself will die and entropy decays into itself under the power of Christ. If Entropy is death, Christ is negentropy.

 

[Tone]

And evolutionary theory is a broken ruler...

 

[Kaon]

I'll keep it simple. Energy cannot just magically disappear or decrease in amount within a completely isolated system.

The only way energy could magically disappear is that:
- We don't exist in a real world
- Some underlying natural Law we have yet to discover
- "Leaking" to a place outside our Universe.

Precisely and exactly.

Specifically, Dash 3 is how we decrease entropy - through entanglement through the vector of other dimensions. The qubits are transferred through the field remotely which looks like a leak. This is the "spooky action at a distance"; I think some physicists still call this magic.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

The scientific definition given there is the first part of #1. Yes, the word is used informally to mean "disorder," but that's not scientifically accurate.

And anyway you should look up technical scientific words in a scientific dictionary. The definition in the Oxford Dictionary of Science is:

entropy: Symbol S. A measure of the unavailability of a system's energy to do work.​

Yet, you'll notice that the trend of energy toward disorder (unusable form) is really a specific manifestation of the larger principle, that disorder tends to increase in a system. This applies to everything, and not just energy. While the application to energy may seem more "scientific" to you, I would argue that it is more easily measured when it applies to energy, but it is no less scientific when it applies to things much more complex than heat gradients or chemical bonds. The effect of a gentle breeze on a house of cards may be difficult to put into an equation, but it is still the effect of entropy, and it is still scientific.

 

[tdidymas]

I don't think so.



You mean the rate of change of entropy? Entropy in the universe as a whole keeps increasing, so the rate of change is positive. This contradicts what you said.

Specific physical and chemical processes have well-defined rates of entropy increase, but that reflects a scientific understanding of entropy. The OP seems to be using "entropy" in some kind of metaphorical sense.



I don't think that he was thinking that. And what is "rate of measurement," anyway?

Only the OP can say what he was thinking, I'm simply surmising and trying to answer his question.

So, think of it this way: Entropy is a measurement of unavailable energy, according to your definition. But since total entropy is increasing, it means there is less energy available for change right now than there was before. And since there is less energy for change right now, there is less energy that becomes unavailable from one moment to the next. It's the same as rate of decay. One def. of entropy is "A measure of the disorder present in a system" which is decay. I'm using the term "decay" as an engineer would use it (not as, say, a medical examiner). Mathematically, it would be de/dt, where e=entropy.

Example of my idea of general decreasing rate of entropy: A heated glass of water cooling is changing to a state of equilibrium, and that change is an irreversible process (by itself), and so it is said that entropy is increasing. But after it reaches equilibrium, is entropy still increasing at the same rate? I don't think it is.

It's like putting a pile of beans in a barrel. The beans in the barrel are increasing, but the rate at which you put them in is decreasing because you're getting tired.

If you believe that the rate of entropy is increasing, can you show a link or some other evidence of that?

Otherwise, I don't want to derail this thread. If you want to start a discussion on this subject, pls. open a thread for it.
TD