Hymns like this?

[South Bound]

And if it's the word "save" that's a problem …

what was Paul saying when he claimed that he had "become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some"? (1 Cor 9:22) Did Paul "save" anyone?

Or James 5:19 - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death.

Rom 11:14 - if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Or Jude - And have mercy on some, who are doubting; save others, snatching them out of the fire.

1 Cor 7:16 - For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

Paul did not "save" anyone, nor did the believers who these instructions went to. Once again, we simply know it is Christ who saves, so we don't assign any meaning to these Scriptures that are not intended. But prejudices exist, and misunderstandings are widespread, so it is reasonable that people are "on their guard" … and can be quick to assign a meaning to "Theotokos save us" that is not intended.

The difference is that each one of those verses you quoted out of context refer to salvation being the end result of the Gospel being proclaimed, while the song asks Mary to do the saving.

(Again, moderators, not saying Catholics and Orthodox aren't Christians, just expressing disagreement with the doctrine expressed in the song.)

 

[Albion]

I can see where the whole "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" can be controversial, but I'll add this:

Obviously Christ is the only one who can save us. In the Liturgy, you will hear the request of the Theotokos to intercede for us

This--

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

and much else in that hymn says a lot more than that!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Indeed, these hymns and prayers will often bounce back and forth. I agree with you especially with your last point.

I did not know it until yesterday.

But it does seem very fitting. As has pretty much everything upon examination. It's good to recognize the intent and meaning that goes into everything.

Once examined, it tends to teach even more truth.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

This--

and much else in that hymn says a lot more than that!

So when Paul says it it's fine. when Mary's name is attached to it it's not. Go figure.

Now what does the hymn ask Mary to save us from? How does it ask her to do it? Does it ask for a supernatural cosmic zap from a magic wand?
Could it be you desiring to see something more nefarious in the hymn than is written in the hymn?

Please don't get me started on evangelical unbiblical hymns. I don't down them as I understand with those words are often used just to keep the musical flow.

In this hymn, it's not such. It's a hymn those who sing understand the true meaning. It's not an evangelist tool. It's a hymn.

I oft times wonder if we examine our own hearts as closely as we examine things we don't understand.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Our first Gospel was
Luke 11:27-28 As Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, ‘Happy the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked!’ But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!’

And after the gospel acclimation came the second gospel
Luke 1:39-56
Mary set out and went as quickly as she could to a town in the hill country of Judah. She went into Zechariah’s house and greeted Elizabeth. Now as soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. She gave a loud cry and said, ‘Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord? For the moment your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leapt for joy. Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled.’
And Mary said:
‘My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord
and my spirit exults in God my saviour;
because he has looked upon his lowly handmaid.
Yes, from this day forward all generations will call me blessed,
for the Almighty has done great things for me.
Holy is his name,
and his mercy reaches from age to age for those who fear him.
He has shown the power of his arm,
he has routed the proud of heart.
He has pulled down princes from their thrones and exalted the lowly.
The hungry he has filled with good things, the rich sent empty away.
He has come to the help of Israel his servant, mindful of his mercy
– according to the promise he made to our ancestors –
of his mercy to Abraham and to his descendants for ever.’
Mary stayed with Elizabeth about three months and then went back home.

The Magnificat.wmv - YouTube

We had both of those as well (or one of the Synoptics possibly - but I expect we had the same passage?). I didn't realize the Catholic Church's readings are the same?

 

[Albion]

So when Paul says it it's fine. when Mary's name is attached to it it's not. Go figure.

Now what does the hymn ask Mary to save us from? How does it ask her to do it? Does it ask for a supernatural cosmic zap from a magic wand?
Could it be you desiring to see something more nefarious in the hymn than is written in the hymn?

Oh boy.

Here starts the predictable defense of the indefensible. Say it means something other than the words say. Question the character or the motives of anyone who dares to mention the problem. Use sarcasm instead of a defense based on the evidence. Etc. Etc.

Please don't get me started on evangelical unbiblical hymns.

Why not? Even though they are not the subject of this discussion, you could give it a shot.

You've already resorted to the other usual alibis and techniques of evasion. Turning the tables by characterizing all critics as yokels might be worth a try, even if it's entirely irrelevant to the issue itself.

In this hymn, it's not such. It's a hymn those who sing understand the true meaning. It's not an evangelist tool. It's a hymn.

It's a hymn that expresses the faith of those people and churches that use it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My dear sister Kylissa, we shouldn't need to explain our prayers and our liturgies to our brothers and sisters in Christ because they ought to apply a charitable judgement to what we do when we pray and when we worship God. And the antiquity of the liturgy ought to make the need for clarifications less necessary rather than more. It troubles me that those whom we freely call our brethren in the faith of Jesus Christ take these issues and inflate them into causes for doubting the Christianity of our churches.

PS: I started this post about two hours before I finally got around to posting it. I had a phone call from my brother. There is a family member who is close to death so I was distracted for a while.

 

[Albion]

My dear sister Kylissa, we shouldn't need to explain our prayers and our liturgies to our brothers and sisters in Christ because they ought to apply a charitable judgement to what we do when we pray and when we worship God.

Would that that advice would be taken to heart also by those who spend their days telling other Christians that they are heretics, don't belong to a real church, and so on.

 

[~Anastasia~]

My dear sister Kylissa, we shouldn't need to explain our prayers and our liturgies to our brothers and sisters in Christ because they ought to apply a charitable judgement to what we do when we pray and when we worship God. And the antiquity of the liturgy ought to make the need for clarifications less necessary rather than more.

True.

I'm trying to be charitable in acknowledging the fact that I had an issue with it as well. I understand why a Protestant would.

But instead of immediately jumping to the conclusion that it meant what I might assume it means (what many assume) ... I prefer to reserve judgment and try to understand before I condemn a practice that I essentially know nothing about.

I know that's going to sound like I'm elevating my own method. But that is simply how I approach things. It's how I have tried to approach everything associated with faith, no matter which church was putting forth the idea. It has been very beneficial in reaching a real understanding, even when I ultimately find that I don't agree with the theology behind whatever belief or practice I'm asking about (to be honest, I agree far more often than I expect to - maybe not 100% but I can appreciate aspects of the practices and beliefs of very diverse kinds of churches.

I can appreciate why the Methodists have completely open communion, and why the Orthodox and Lutherans have completely closed communion. And learn something from the reasons behind both, even if I may not agree in the end.

It troubles me that those whom we freely call our brethren in the faith of Jesus Christ take these issues and inflate them into causes for doubting the Christianity of our churches.

I do think it is important to remember that God is the One who judges.

PS: I started this post about two hours before I finally got around to posting it. I had a phone call from my brother. There is a family member who is close to death so I was distracted for a while.

Very sorry to hear that, dear brother. It seems there are so suddenly many deaths to deal with. My prayers are with your family.

 

[Albion]

True.

I'm trying to be charitable in acknowledging the fact that I had an issue with it as well. I understand why a Protestant would.

But instead of immediately jumping to the conclusion that it meant what I might assume it means (what many assume) ... I prefer to reserve judgment and try to understand before I condemn a practice that I essentially know nothing about.

I know that's going to sound like I'm elevating my own method. But that is simply how I approach things. It's how I have tried to approach everything associated with faith, no matter which church was putting forth the idea. It has been very beneficial in reaching a real understanding, even when I ultimately find that I don't agree with the theology behind whatever belief or practice I'm asking about (to be honest, I agree far more often than I expect to - maybe not 100% but I can appreciate aspects of the practices and beliefs of very diverse kinds of churches.

I can appreciate why the Methodists have completely open communion, and why the Orthodox and Lutherans have completely closed communion. And learn something from the reasons behind both, even if I may not agree in the end.

I commend you...and always have liked it in you...that you can approach controversial religious subjects with the ability to see both sides or at least to suspend judgment until you get the whole picture.

 

[~Anastasia~]

approach controversial religious subjects with the ability to see both sides or at least to suspend judgment until you get the whole picture.

And sometimes there are more than two sides, LOL. It's a complicated landscape we find ourselves in, isn't it? To me it is at least.

God bless you, my brother!

 

[Albion]

And sometimes there are more than two sides, LOL.

Exactly. But then it is incumbent upon both sides to make their respective cases. When one says "That seems wrong because" and the other immediately flies off the handle before taking its day in court, we're all losers for it.

God bless you, my brother!

Thank you, Kylissa, and blessings to you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I wouldn't say that, nor does the Orthodox Church elevate Mary on the pedestal as a goddess. Which part of the hymn specifically caught your eye to make that statement?

Beyond the previously discussed appeal to Mary for salvation, there is the evident prayers to her which are intermingled with prayers to the three members of the Trinity. I note that the prayers to Mary are not prayers for her intercession with God, but direct prayers for her to answer. She is thus accorded an equal place with the members of the Trinity in her ability to bestow these varied things.

Both members of the EO and the RCC take great pains to inform us that prayers to Mary and the saints are merely requests for them to intercede with God. This hymn reveals the patent falsehood of such claims as it accords Mary powers which God alone possesses.

 

[George95]

Yessss, more replies.

 

[George95]

Beyond the previously discussed appeal to Mary for salvation, there is the evident prayers to her which are intermingled with prayers to the three members of the Trinity. I note that the prayers to Mary are not prayers for her intercession with God, but direct prayers for her to answer. She is thus accorded an equal place with the members of the Trinity in her ability to bestow these varied things.

Both members of the EO and the RCC take great pains to inform us that prayers to Mary and the saints are merely requests for them to intercede with God. This hymn reveals the patent falsehood of such claims as it accords Mary powers which God alone possesses.

I'm going to disagree with you on that. Me personally, I know that Christ is the only one who can save us, and as I stated before, I know that those hymns and the wording carry a different meaning. Certainly you've asked someone to help you with something or intercede on your behalf. The hymn is simply stating her to intercede while Her Son saves us.

 

[Nik0s]

46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

The Theotokos does nothing through her own power, but like all the saints she intercedes for us. As the mother of our Lord, the most holy Theotokos is the benchmark we should all strive for in life. To be Holy, Humble and righteous.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Only if you wish to become a Jew rather than to remain as you are, a Christian; because, you see, the Beroeans were Jews.

I remember a conversation we had about this not that I was trying to ignor it

 

[Albion]

The Theotokos does nothing through her own power, but like all the saints she intercedes for us.

In that case, wouldn't we expect to find hymns and prayers that say that she is an intercessor rather than that she has the powers that this hymn attributes to her?

 

[Ellwood3]

There's better music out there, with far less controversial lyrics.

This is Rich Mullins and his song Creed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTop7pzqcM

 

[Noxot]

Jesus Christ taught us to pray to his Father... not even to himself but to his Father. if he did not even desire that we pray to him but through him to his Father then I don't wanna pray but how he tells us.

I understand that sometimes when a person is feeling a lot of shame that you don't want to pray to Father or even to ask Jesus to pray for you but I think I would rather just not pray to God and maybe ask someone to pray for me than to resort to beseeching a saint which I am already certain, are already praying for all of us without our asking them. that's how I see it and I doubt anyone could blame me for seeing it this way.

what i do wonder is how people pray to saints or mary when Jesus said this:

Matt 6:9-13 (YLT)
thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who art in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name. `Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth. `Our appointed bread give us to-day. `And forgive us our debts, as also we forgive our debtors. `And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but deliver us from the evil, because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory--to the ages. Amen.

Luke 11:2-4 (YLT)
And he said to them, `When ye may pray, say ye: Our Father who art in the heavens; hallowed be Thy name: Thy reign come; Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on earth; our appointed bread be giving us daily; and forgive us our sins, for also we ourselves forgive every one indebted to us; and mayest Thou not bring us into temptation; but do Thou deliver us from the evil.'

the Son of God prays to Father God. examples of Jesus praying:

Matt 26:39 (YLT)
And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'

Matt 26:42 (YLT)
Again, a second time, having gone away, he prayed, saying, `My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from me except I drink it, Thy will be done;'

Matt 11:25-26 (YLT)
At that time Jesus answering said, `I do confess to Thee, Father, Lord of the heavens and of the earth, that thou didst hide these things from wise and understanding ones, and didst reveal them to babes. Yes, Father, because so it was good pleasure before Thee.

Jesus, even though he made himself equal to his Father, still praised him as "greater than all".

John 10:29-30 (YLT)
my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father; I and the Father are one.'

notice the Trinity here in that last verse, how oneness is in the threeness of the Trinity. 'different persons, same essence' ( or however you would word it.... really it just depends on your church and what words you used to express something by spirit ). if the TRINITY of persons of God prays in a certain manner then I find it wise to do as he himself did.