Hymns like this?

[AlexLL]

I have honestly never even known hymns like this existed. With all due respect, I think a hymn such as this is very unbiblical.

 

[Albion]

I have honestly never even known hymns like this existed. With all due respect, I think a hymn such as this is very unbiblical.

In fact, hymns and prayers that use this kind of wording are very common in certain churches. I have a publication here from one of them that includes an essay that describes Mary in exactly the same way.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This is Rich Mullins and his song Creed

That immediately brought to mind a song I listened to yesterday. I was in too big a hurry to listen to my usual podcasts, so I turned on the radio, and caught this one. I had thought about starting a thread, and I don't want to derail this one, but it does seem fitting to post after yours.

Newsboys - We Believe


Newsboys - We Believe (Lyric Video) - YouTube


I must say, I certainly find the lyrics of both appealing overall.


It reminds me of a young man who was a traveling musician who came to a church I attended many years ago and stayed with us at several people's homes for a while. His desire was to set the Psalms directly to music, and he played a guitar.

Beautiful music he was making ... I wonder what ever happened to him. May God bless him.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Jesus Christ taught us to pray to his Father... not even to himself but to his Father. if he did not even desire that we pray to him but through him to his Father then I don't wanna pray but how he tells us.

I snipped a bit of your post, so please forgive me, but your point being that we use Jesus as an example of how to pray (and of course He is the very best example!) cannot really stand up to the idea that we ought not even pray to Jesus ... can you imagine Jesus in the Gospels praying to Himself?

that's how I see it and I doubt anyone could blame me for seeing it this way.

I think what an Orthodox priest would say, if you asked this question, would be that you must certainly follow your own conscience. To anyone who does anything and believes what he is doing is sin, to him it IS sin.

I spoke to two of them myself, and that was one of the first things we talked about (prayers involving the Virgin Mary and the saints) and they both told me no one has to or should do it who disagrees with it. So I don't think anyone would "blame" you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I have honestly never even known hymns like this existed.

Hello, AlexLL, and welcome to CF!!!

 

[~Anastasia~]

The difference is that each one of those verses you quoted out of context refer to salvation being the end result of the Gospel being proclaimed, while the song asks Mary to do the saving.

(Again, moderators, not saying Catholics and Orthodox aren't Christians, just expressing disagreement with the doctrine expressed in the song.)

I do understand why you think so. As I said, I'm trying to be fair here, because that's exactly what I "heard" when I first heard the phrase.

It's honestly just something you have to understand. The Divine Liturgy in our Church lasts for a couple of hours, and during the entire time we are hearing hymns, Scripture being read, and prayers. The whole body fits together to make a very strong message.

I doubt you can find an Orthodox who comes away with the idea that we ask Mary to do the saving. "Theotokos save us" is a very abbreviated form.

As I said, it is followed by "By the prayers/intercession of the Theotokos, Savior save us".

There is also a point where we pray a longer form ...

"All-Merciful Master, Lord Jesus Christ our God, through the intercessions of our all-pure Lady, Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary; by the power of the precious and life-giving Cross; through the protection of the honorable, bodiless powers of the heavens; by the supplications of the honorable, glorious, prophet, forerunner, and baptist John; of the holy, glorious, and all-praiseworthy Apostles; of the holy, glorious and victorious martyrs; of our venerable and God-bearing fathers; of (of the Saint of the church); of the holy and righteous ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna; of Saint(s) (of the day) whose memory we celebrate; and of all Your saints ... "

But again, we are not asking directly from any of those invoked, but from the Lord Jesus Christ if you read the opening of the prayer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We had both of those as well (or one of the Synoptics possibly - but I expect we had the same passage?). I didn't realize the Catholic Church's readings are the same?

I think our readings often coincide with those used in the Divine Liturgy.

 

[South Bound]

I do understand why you think so.

Yeah, I think so because that's what it says.

It's honestly just something you have to understand. The Divine Liturgy in our Church lasts for a couple of hours, and during the entire time we are hearing hymns, Scripture being read, and prayers. The whole body fits together to make a very strong message.

I doubt you can find an Orthodox who comes away with the idea that we ask Mary to do the saving. "Theotokos save us" is a very abbreviated form.

I'll bet I can. I talk to many Catholics who believe Mary saves us on another board.

As I said, it is followed by "By the prayers/intercession of the Theotokos, Savior save us".

Not true. The next verse says

"Assaults of the passions have shaken me,
My soul to its limits
Has been filled with much despair;
Bring peace, O Maiden, in the calmness,
Of your own Son and your God, all‑blameless One."

No mention of "Savior save us".

It goes on to say, "To God and the Savior you've given birth;
I ask you, O Virgin,
From the dangers deliver me;
For now I run to you for refuge"

Mary can't deliver us from danger. She's dead. And Mary isn't our refuge. Christ is our refuge.

But again, we are not asking directly from any of those invoked, but from the Lord Jesus Christ if you read the opening of the prayer.

Sorry, but it names Mary by name. It doesn't say praying to Jesus, but refers to Mary.

 

[George95]

Yeah, I think so because that's what it says.



I'll bet I can. I talk to many Catholics who believe Mary saves us on another board.



Not true. The next verse says

"Assaults of the passions have shaken me,
My soul to its limits
Has been filled with much despair;
Bring peace, O Maiden, in the calmness,
Of your own Son and your God, all‑blameless One."

No mention of "Savior save us".

It goes on to say, "To God and the Savior you've given birth;
I ask you, O Virgin,
From the dangers deliver me;
For now I run to you for refuge"

Actually she's referring to the Liturgy when that verse is chanted.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Actually she's referring to the Liturgy when that verse is chanted.

Yes, that is what I'm referring to. What we hear just about every time we go to Church.

But yes, some people will believe what they want to believe, and I'm not about to get into a punching match of "nuh-uh" "yuh-huh".

Merely providing info in case one is actually interested in understanding.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sorry, but it names Mary by name. It doesn't say praying to Jesus, but refers to Mary.

I edited it so that you could see that part a little more easily. The prayer is addressed to Christ Jesus.

But again, we are not asking directly from any of those invoked, but from the Lord Jesus Christ if you read the opening of the prayer.

"All-Merciful Master, Lord Jesus Christ our God, through the intercessions of our all-pure Lady, Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary; by the power of the precious and life-giving Cross; through the protection of the honorable, bodiless powers of the heavens; by the supplications of the honorable, glorious, prophet, forerunner, and baptist John; of the holy, glorious, and all-praiseworthy Apostles; of the holy, glorious and victorious martyrs; of our venerable and God-bearing fathers; of (of the Saint of the church); of the holy and righteous ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna; of Saint(s) (of the day) whose memory we celebrate; and of all Your saints ... "

 

[South Bound]

I edited it so that you could see that part a little more easily. The prayer is addressed to Christ Jesus.

The hymn in the OP, which is what we're discussing, is addressed to Mary alone.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The hymn in the OP, which is what we're discussing, is addressed to Mary alone.

I was attempting to help you understand. But it would appear that you're not interested in anything that goes against your prejudices, seeing as how you reject my statements out of hand?

I'm not here to change your mind. I simply thought you were interested in understanding.

 

[George95]

The hymn in the OP, which is what we're discussing, is addressed to Mary alone.

I'm not sure how you can say that, when it also says this:

O Lord, I have heard of
the wondrous mystery of Your salvation;
I have contemplated all Your works
And I have glorified Your great divinity.

 

[South Bound]

I'm not sure how you can say that, when it also says this:

I can say it because I quoted it.

 

[George95]

I can say it because I quoted it.

Lol you're saying that it's to Mary alone, which it is not.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm going to disagree with you on that. Me personally, I know that Christ is the only one who can save us, and as I stated before, I know that those hymns and the wording carry a different meaning. Certainly you've asked someone to help you with something or intercede on your behalf. The hymn is simply stating her to intercede while Her Son saves us.

If that is what it is stating, then why does it not state it?

It could have just as easily been written, "Mary, please intercede with God the Father and your Son, Jesus Christ, to save us."

Instead, what do we actually have written? Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

That is like the difference between a person who is being assaulted by a criminal who either beseeches for someone to save him or beseeches someone to call the police. They are two very different requests.

In any event, this is hardly the only example in this hymn where Mary is requested to do things for the petitioner, rather than asking her to intercede with God for the petitioner.

 

[George95]

If that is what it is stating, then why does it not state it?

It could have just as easily been written, "Mary, please intercede with God the Father and your Son, Jesus Christ, to save us."

Instead, what do we actually have written? Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

That is like the difference between a person who is being assaulted by a criminal who either beseeches for someone to save him or beseeches someone to call the police. They are two very different requests.

In any event, this is hardly the only example in this hymn where Mary is requested to do things for the petitioner, rather than asking her to intercede with God for the petitioner.

That's just one version of the hymn, the wording can change based on who has either written it or revised it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's just one version of the hymn, the wording can change based on who has either written it or revised it.

Can you show us an example where none of the lyrics contain prayers to Mary as one who answers and saves, but to Mary as intercessor only?

 

[George95]

Can you show us an example where none of the lyrics contain prayers to Mary as one who answers and saves, but to Mary as intercessor only?

As in another version of the hymn?