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Featured How would this sinner be saved, without works.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah, Oct 25, 2018.

  1. Yes

  2. No

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  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    The law is a mirror, and that is all it will ever be... and it is supposed to show you your darkness, and that you are a sinner, (in need of a Savior) and those who do not see or accept that, are still at the very beginning, and may not have even started, nor even began, walking with God or Christ yet...

    And they're certainly not "born again" yet either, since one of the key beginning elements to being born again, is allowing the law to do it's true real work and kill you first...

    And if you haven't even done that yet, well...?

    God Bless!
     
  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Christ gives you a new mirror, or shows you a new mirror, but, BUT, only after the law has been allowed to kill you first... Cause that part (what that prior mirror showed you) must not be lost, lest you fall into into sin again, that will probably be new sin that your blind to as well, and may be caught off guard and blindsided by later on... Which means you'd have to start all over and go back (to the beginning or start) again, instead of forward, and instead of always making forward headway and forward progress...

    God Bless!
     
  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    What is your interpretation of John 15:1-8? Also why were the goats condemned to the lake of fire in Matthew 25:31-46? Jesus explains exactly why in verses 41-46. If a person has faith they will undoubtedly do good work if they have the opportunity. If a person has a complete absence of works then they also have a complete absence of faith. Now I do believe in some cases that a person can come to faith in their last moments in this life and perhaps not have the opportunity to do good works before they die and they may still be saved. God knows who’s heart is genuine and a genuine heart will repent and do good works if given the opportunity. God bless :)
     
  4. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Yes you should... Just as a dairy cow should give milk... If it doesn't give milk... it's still a cow... but giving milk is evidence of it being a cow.

    We don't. That is why the bible says that only God knows a mans heart.

    I agree.. but you cannot categorize every Christian based on what celebrities and politicians do. It, also, doesn't determine whether they are saved or not.. just whether they are good examples of Christians, or not.



    Correct.. but "being a good person" never saved anyone. There are lots of "good people" who don't know Christ or totally dismiss Him.... Still good people.. but being a "good person" is not "being a Christian".


    Very good. This is exactly what Satan would have you believe... "Bad God" due to sending "good people" to hell... You swallowed that hook line and sinker..

    There is nothing we can do, of our own works, that will get us to heaven. If there was.. why was it that Christ needed to come?

    Look, I know that you are Catholic. The only real close understanding of Catholics is my late father in law. He would jump out of his chair to help the lady down the street bring in her groceries. Sit at a four way stop until all the other cars had gone ahead of him. He would clean the snow out of all the lanes on his street....

    Not because he wanted to, but because he thought he HAD to. The services that he did were not showing that he was a man of God.. they were showing God that he was "earning" something. They were not done for servant sake but for personal gain.

    These acts of service were turned into acts of selfishness.. for his own gain.

    Acts of charity are not acts of charity if we are doing them to "get" something from them... Like salvation, or a pat on the back from God.

    We are to be servants because we are already indwelled by the Holy Spirit and He is shining through us.. Not because we are trying to earn salvation.
     
  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    In Romans 7:14-24 Paul is speaking in the present tense from his experience as a Pharisee (before he became a Christian). He was giving us his experience in what it was like to follow the false Pharisee religion that emphasized obedience to God's commands with little to no emphasis on God's grace or mercy. Law alone type religion without God's grace and mercy is going to just lead a person to struggle to obey God's laws because they need God's grace first and they need to abide in God in order to overcome grievous sin (that leads unto spiritual death) in their life. Paul is saying (it is not law keeping alone that will help us to overcome sin), we need Jesus Christ in order to crucify the affections and lusts (See Romans 13:14).

    Saying that King David was saved while committing his sins of adultery and murder is teaching a license for immorality (or a license to sin that Jude 1:4 warns us about). A person can hear this message and become the next George Sodini (See this article here).

    First, Adam and Eve did not need to commit tons of sin in order to become unsaved. It only took one sin to separate them spiritually from GOD (Whereby they needed to renew their salvation with Him by repentance and obedience - just like everyone else) (To examples of repentance in the Old Testament, see: Genesis 50:15-21, Job 42:6, 2 Samuel 12:13, Psalms 51:1-12, Jonah 3:6-10 cf. with Matthew 12:41).

    Second, in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we learn that when the son comes home to the father, his father says that he was "dead" and is "alive again" two times. His father also said he was "lost" and is now "found" two times. If the son is "alive again" and he was "dead" this means at one time he was alive spiritually and he then became dead spiritually and now he is "alive again" (spiritually). The parable is clearly speaking in spiritual terms about a person renewing themselves back to GOD after having backslid into a life of sin. I also see it as the life of a believer. A person is saved as a baby because of Christ's sacrifice, and then when they grow up and fall into sin, they become unsaved; And they then need to be born again spiritually and receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. In the story, I see the father as Jesus (Who is our everlasting father because He will one day resurrect us all for eternity). Anyways, this parable is one parable out of a series of three parables that are grouped together with the theme being repentance (i.e. Seeking forgiveness with the Lord).

    Three, James 5:19-20 is saying that if a faithful believer converts an unfaithful backslidden believer (Who still believes in Jesus) back to the faith by getting them to repent (seek forgiveness with GOD) whereby they will forsake their sin, the brother who helped to restore them back to the faith should know that they have helped to save a soul from spiritual death, and have helped to cover this brother's sins. Meaning, his unfaithful brother was dead spiritually when he was prodigal. So this is our second clear witness in Scripture that a believer can become unsaved because of their sin, and then become saved again by repentance.

    In regards to 2 Timothy 2:13:
    Well, you gotta read the next verse above, friend.

    It says,

    12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
    13 If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13).

    Denying Him is the almost the same thing as not believing in Him. Verse 12 says if we deny him, He will deny us. If we believe not, God remains faithful not to us but to His own Word for those who will believe in Him because without faith (belief in the Lord) it is impossible to please GOD (Hebrews 11:6). A person without faith or a belief is not saved. For whosever does not believe is condemned (See John 3:18).

    I will address the rest of your verses in another post (So that my reply is not too long to read for you).
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 go together because they are a part of the false gnostic belief that John was warning the brethren about. For John says, "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." (1 John 2:26). So I will address them together.

    My Comment on 1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:10:

    Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 changes the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

    In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

    "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

    In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

    As for 1 John 1:9:

    Nowhere does 1 John 1:9 teach that this is to be the every day life of the believer their whole lives. In fact, we know that is not the case because 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother (See 1 John 2:9-10). Paul says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10). So keeping God's commandments is the same as "walking" in the phrase "walking in the light" in 1 John 1:7. It means we have to walk uprightly and obey God's commandments in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. For 1 John 2:4 says that person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments (can just be only one) they are a liar and the truth is not in them. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (See Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10 and read it, you would discover that the King of the Ninevites told his people to do two very important things.

    (a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance, seeking forgiveness with GOD).
    (b) Forsake their evil ways (i.e. Which is the Fruits of Repentance).​

    We learn that when GOD had seen the Ninevites had turned from their evil ways, THAT was the turning point whereby GOD had decided to no longer bring wrath upon them. They needed to also forsake their evil ways. A person abiding in one sin is still abiding in evil. A person justifying one horrible sin is no different than a person who is justifying many. Remember, Jesus said that if we only look upon a woman in lust, it is enough for us to potentially be cast bodily into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Matthew 6:15 says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. Lusting in one's heart is one sin that condemn us, and unforgiveness is one sin that can condemn us. John tell us to "sin not" in 1 John 2:1, and Jesus tells us two people to "sin no more." in John 5:14, and John 8:11. So 1 John 1:9 is not a mere paying of lip service on a daily or weekly basis our whole lives. There has to be a point whereby we (believers) will walk uprightly in regards to grievous sin (that leads to spiritual death).
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Do whatever you feel you need to do to make your salvation sure and secure, and "locked in" I guess you could say... I'm getting mine, how bout you...?

    "Sin"... Now, I don't like to compare sins but...? I think many who have a lot of "inward sins" or "inner sins", like to focus on, or come down upon, or judge, criticize, condemn, ect, those who have "outer sins" or surface sins, that they can see on the surface or from the outside, but it is the "inner man" that is the number one most important thing, IMO...

    And Jesus/God seems to think so to, here: (Matthew 23:25-26) (Luke 11:39)

    And this may be precisely why God/Jesus chose to be with and among the "so-called sinners by the Pharisees" but they (the Pharisees) were much worse sinners than who they were calling sinners, and Jesus drove that fact home "a lot", A LOT...

    Now, what makes you think it is any different today...?

    And the OT Law, if not applied correctly, makes this much, much worse IMO, (inner sins)...

    God Bless!
     
  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Not true, we are saved by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8); And works of faith (and not works of the Law of Moses or Works Alone - Ephesians 2:9) are merely a part of our faith (See James 2:18).

    After we are saved by God's grace,
    God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



    (Here are a List of Verses):


    “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

    "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

    "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

    “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

    "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

    "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

    “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

    "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

    ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

    "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

    “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

    "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

    "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

    ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

    "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

    “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

    "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

    “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

    “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

    “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

    ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

    “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

    ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

    ”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

    ”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

    ”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

    ”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

    “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

    “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

    While God does give us a new heart with new desires in the new birth (after repenting of our sins and accepting Jesus and believing in His death and resurrection for salvation), the new birth does not over ride our free will.

    We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

    "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

    "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

    "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

    "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

    "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

    "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

    "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.

    Source used:
    Once Saved Always Saved - Fact or Fiction?
     
  9. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Well, I am not looking to condemn any person personally unless they justify their grievous sin before me or in public view. A person is not going to get away with sin; And they will have to face GOD for what they do one day. It is not I that judge them, it will be Jesus who will judge them. Unless somebody flaunts their sin in my face, and says they are saved (While they sin), I am not looking to attack people's sins; On the contrary, I am more interested in (or focused on) destroying the false belief that says we can commit grievous sin (without repentance or seeking forgiveness with GOD) and still be saved. It only takes one grievous sin to separate a believer from GOD whereby they need to repent. King David was not saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. Many falsely say that he was saved while he was doing those sins and that is not true. David needed to repent (Which is what we see in Psalms 51:1-12). This is just a fact of Scripture that people want to deny because they prefer a more comforting belief that is simply not taught in the Bible. People feel that they cannot stop sinning, or they feel that nobody has ever done so because they are not looking at the Scriptures by faith but they are looking at the world around them by sight. But is that what Noah did? Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Nobody around him was living righteously. GOD told him to build an ark. If Noah did not build the ark and he just trusted in the LORD to save him and ignored God's words in building an ark, he would have perished (like everyone else). Works of faith are a part of one's faith. A person cannot separate the two. They breath as one.
     
  10. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    Mark 10:20-23 shows that a person does have obligations regardless of having faith. Even religious practices and traditions are shown to not be enough. Even though God broke the penalties of sin, that doesn't mean he doesn't want us to do good.


    So you think a God who just sends people to hell --regardless of them living a good life, all because they don't believe in him-- is a good god? You really think Satan is asking this question?

    You have one person who lived somewhere in a non-religious country, and you have another guy who is a priest or Pastor. The person who lived in another country is a good person; he doesn't fight others, he doesn't do any illegal things, nor does he judge.. yet you have the priest/pastor/christian who have done things like, molested children, or just looks down on others. How can God be good if he sends the first guy to hell, or even both of them?


    Because with out Jesus, no faith nor work would be good enough to go to heaven. All is the same results unless you work unnatural that good like Elijah did.
    --
    Faith is supposed to be positive (also rational, IMO), it is supposed to be something bigger than just believing. A true christian is defined based on his works, because Jesus is good. If you believe in a good God then you yourself have to do good, or do your best to do good, and it should be natural at the same time.

    Look at Jesus' problem with the Scribes and Pharisees. These high priests obviously believed in God, and they obeyed the mosaic laws, yet they were not good people.

    23 Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
    2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  11. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Christian A true Christian desires to be free from sin.jpg
     
  12. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Christian A true Christian desires to be free from sin.jpg
     
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace, but works of faith play a part of the salvation process because works of faith are a natural part of your faith (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 says GOD has chosen us for salvation through two things.

    #1. Belief of the Truth (Jesus is the truth - John 14:6).
    #2. Sanctification of the Spirit.​

    "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    BTW ~ The context is this in verse 12.
    "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:12). So Sanctification of the Spirit here is talking about holy living by the Holy Spirit.

    "Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work." (2 Thessalonians 2:17).

    Well, that's great, but if one's initial gospel message can inadvertently lead someone into sin (Whether we want that to happen or not) because one's message says that a believer is saved by God's grace and does not include works or holiness (in any way whatsoever), it really does not matter if one mentions holiness as a part of the regeneration later on as a part of being a true believer. A person can still hear the "Popular Free Grace Gospel Message" that says that salvation is all "Grace, grace, grace, and it is not based upon anything you do" in the beginning and then when they move to another country (to never hear that Free Grace preacher again on his message of holiness later on) they can easily think that this person was teaching a license to sin by God's grace by their initial message.

    Also, the regeneration is not something that over rides our free will, either. We still have free will, and we need to endure to the end to be ultimately saved. Scripture says we have to KEEP ourselves in the love of GOD. How is the regeneration as you describe true if we are told to "KEEP ourselves in the love of GOD"? Furthermore, in my experience, those who claim that the regeneration changes a person think King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. Again, this is teaching that God's grace is a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 strictly forbids. It does not matter if one strives not to sin. The foundation is already corrupted by a person justifying grievous sin with the thinking they are saved by this very gospel message that says we can commit grievous sin and yet still be saved. For if tell people King David was saved while he committed adultery and murder, it can lead others to think they can also murder and commit adultery and be saved, too. George Sodini definitely thought this way. You can read about his tragic story here.

    A person cannot build upon an improper foundation like sand for your house. It will not stand. We believe in Jesus as our Savior, but we build upon our belief in Him by obeying His teachings because Christ's teachings are a part of WHO He is.

    We are told in Scripture that "...we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16). If we truly have the mind of Christ, we will not justify sin by speaking a gospel message that says we can sin and still be saved on some level because Jesus (Who is GOD) never justified sin in any way in His obedience to GOD the Father.
     
  14. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Also, why would Jesus warn us about how just even singular sins can cause a loss of salvation if a "Belief Alone and a Force Regeneration That Follows" was true?

    Jesus said if we look upon a woman in lust, our whole body can be cast into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (See Matthew 6:15). Jesus says we can be condemned by our words (Matthew 12:37). Jesus says that if look back after we put our hand to the plow (i.e. spreading the gospel), we are not fit (worthy) of the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62). Jesus essentially says if we do not help the poor in this life, we will be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). The unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness. It makes no sense to warn us about these things if it was just some kind of automatic thing that happens every time a person accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. Jesus was not warning unbelievers of these sins because an unbeliever first needs to repent and accept Jesus first. They cannot be saved by obeying the Law first. They first need Jesus and then they can obey because they will have God living on the inside of them, helping them to obey if they cooperate with GOD. But it is their free will choice to choose this day in whom they will serve. GOD does not change our mind to force us to walk after His good ways. We have to choose to cooperate with GOD.
     
  15. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    This quote is in each of your posts:
    If it is okay, I would like to examine this statement in light of Scripture in regards to a belief that says we are saved by God's grace + nothing.

    Yes, we are saved by having faith in the blood of Jesus (Romans 3:25), but we also have to live out our faith as a part of the blood of Jesus cleansing us, too. How so?

    Well, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother (See 1 John 2:9-10). Paul says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10). So keeping God's commandments is the same as "walking" in the phrase "walking in the light" in 1 John 1:7. It means we have to walk uprightly and obey God's commandments in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. For 1 John 2:4 says that person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (See Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10 and read it, you would discover that the King of the Ninevites told his people to do two very important things.

    (a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance, seeking forgiveness with GOD).
    (b) Forsake their evil ways (i.e. Which is the Fruits of Repentance).​

    We learn that when GOD had seen the Ninevites had turned from their evil ways, THAT was the turning point whereby GOD had decided to no longer bring wrath upon them. They needed to also forsake their evil ways. John tell us to "sin not" in 1 John 2:1, and Jesus tells us two people to "sin no more." in John 5:14, and John 8:11.

    Hebrews 5:9 says,
    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

    I hope that this will help you to see where I am coming from with God's Word.

    In any event (whether you agree or disagree), may God's love shine upon you this fine day (that He has made), and may you please be well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  16. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    That’s not an explanation. Why is it that everyone who claims works are not necessary for salvation can never explain these verses? Do they simply disregard them?
     
  17. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

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    This is your opinion, not a fact. The nature of this passage has been debated for centuries. We will not resolve it here, so I suggest we move on.

    Again, interpretation. I won't bother debating what greater minds than ours have not been able to resolve. I have my interpretation, you have yours.

    Classic slippery slope argument. The fact is that we all rely upon God's grace when we sin. Look at the greatest commandment: Matthew 22:37 NASB "And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'" What does keeping this commandment look like? In order to love Him with all our heart, we must have our hearts set upon Him at all times, never changing focus. Same with the soul, same with the mind. Jesus was making a point beyond the surface with these commandments (love the LORD, love your neighbor as yourself), and the point was that these commandments are impossible to keep perfectly. EVERYBODY breaks them constantly, even the most holy among us, including you (if you are honest with yourself). This is not antinomianism, it is reality.


    Of course we need to confess and repent! But sinning once does not lose us our salvation. According to 1 John 3:9 those who practice sin are not saved (we can debate all day long whether they were ever saved to no avail, as others have... I am unsure). Adam and Eve is a special case, but I submit to you that nowhere does it say they lost their salvation, only their fellowship.

    The younger brother is clearly lost to begin with. The whole thing about children being saved and then losing their salvation when they sin ignores Romans 5:18, which says that "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men". This clearly indicates that we are born lost because of Adam's transgression (children routinely die). I do believe that God does not impute sin to those who have not reached the age of accountability, and at the very least the children of believers are regarded as clean by God (1 Corinthians 7:14), but children are not "saved" in the same way we are, in that they don't have the indwelling Spirit, and then lose the Spirit when they sin. And neither do we as adults (John 10:28-29).

    First, where does it say the sinner is not still in the faith? Second, James is one of the first NT books written and in the early church God took sin seriously (see Acts 5:1-11). People died for their sin, and physical death is what James has in view there.



    Denying is not the same as disbelief, although it may follow from unbelief. We have to remember that this was written during a time of intense persecution, and the temptation to deny Jesus and return to "normal" life was intense. Paul was saying that if we don't feel our faith measures up, it does not matter as long as we don't renounce our faith. If we have faith as a mustard seed we are saved.
     
  18. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Repentance is a gift from God. It is not a work.

    Ephesians 2 says we were dead in our sins. A dead man cannot repent. Dead men can do nothing.
     
  19. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Let’s just cut to the chase and make this real simple. Do you believe we as believers have the mind of Christ as per 1 Corinthians 2:15?

    If so, then you cannot justify sin with the thinking you are right with God because Jesus never justified sin.
     
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Here is the Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

    [God said to Adam,]
    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

    [Eve said to the serpent,]
    "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

    And the serpent said unto the woman,
    "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

    "...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

    "For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

    "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

    “...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
    (Matthew 5:22).

    28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

    “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

    “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

    Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

    “22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

    “26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
    (Matthew 7:26-27).

    “15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

    "he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

    "everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

    "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

    6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

    "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

    "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

    41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
    42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

    “For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
    (James 4:6).

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

    16 "There is a sin unto death..."
    17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

    19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

    5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
    ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
    7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

    5 “...God;
    6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

    “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
    (Ezekiel 18:24).

    9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
    “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

    "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

    “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
     
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