• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured How would this sinner be saved, without works.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah, Oct 25, 2018.

  1. Yes

  2. No

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,301
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Repentance and becoming humble doesn’t save a person. The Bible does not say that no works are necessary to be saved. It says we are not saved by works. We are saved by faith which produces repentance and works.
     
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,301
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Amen John 15:1-8 is another excellent example.
     
  3. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

    +1,791
    Christian
    Faith itself is a change of one's mind from not believing to believing.
     
  4. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

    +1,791
    Christian
    Are you speaking of yourself?

    The quote in Romans 4 of David comes from Ps 32 occurs after his sin, not while he was sinning. Do you view the gospel of grace as a license to sin? Does the fact that salvation is contingent upon faith apart from works imply a license to sin to you? Is that why you reject the gospel for a salvation by works scenario. Unbelieving Jews opted for that.

    "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Rom 10:3,4

    The way God deals with sinfulness under the New Covenant is through regeneration, such that (and I've said this many times) "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

    Since those born of God are incapable of living in sin, why would you think that believing the gospel is a license to sin?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  5. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +2,634
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    All anyone does in coming to salvation is receive/respond to the "work" of God. God convicts the sinner of his sin (John 16:8); God illuminates the sinner's understanding (John 16:13); God draws the sinner to faith in Christ (John 6:44); God humbles the sinner, too, enabling him to repent (2 Timothy 2:25; Philippians 2:13). To all of these things, the sinner must respond by receiving what God has done for him through Christ (John 1:12; Colossians 2:6). What, then, of the work you imply is an unavoidable element in salvation? Does a patient receiving life-saving brain surgery, help the surgeon operate on his brain? No. He just lays on the operating table, unconscious, and receives the work of the surgeon upon his brain. Does a drowned man contribute to his resuscitation? Can he give himself CPR, or mouth-to-mouth? Obviously not. Entirely passively, he must receive the saving work of others, being totally unable to help himself. So, too, the lost sinner. He is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1), thoroughly in bondage to the world, his own flesh, and the devil. He cannot free himself. Paul, then, is correct:

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


    Titus 3:5-7
    5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
    6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
    7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


    In light of these things, I would simply share with the prideful man the Gospel, knowing that it is the "power of God unto salvation" (Romans 1:16). And I would pray that God would do what only He can do in making the prideful man response-able to His saving call.

    Any steps we take toward salvation are the consequence of God's work in us. We only work out what He has first worked into us (Philippians 2:12-13) by the convicting, illuminating and persuading work of the Holy Spirit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  6. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    +1,401
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    "If you do, then are you getting him to do a work, before/in order to getting saved."

    Repenting is not a work.

    Jesus speaking

    Matthew 4

    17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
     
  7. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD Citizen of the Kingdom

    +550
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Ya like Jesus didn't work. But you follow whatever example you see fit.
     
  8. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

    +3,155
    Canada
    Protestant
    Married
    As far as I know, Faith in Christ and who He was is what saves us.. Faith that He is the "way, the truth and the light".

    For the record... I know many "prideful" Christians. The only thing that their pride does not cloud is their knowledge of the fact that they need Christ.

    Outside of that, they are no different than those that "gossip", "lie", "steal", are guilty of "gluttony", "covetousness" , "adultery" or any number of sins..... They are still children of God and Saved by Christ's blood.

    Remember, we are all guilty of some sin... we have no right to say "They are prideful and cannot be saved".

    Christ came to save everyone.
     
  9. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

    +3,155
    Canada
    Protestant
    Married
    Work is evidence of salvation... not a prerequisite for it.
     
  10. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,748
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Private
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,654
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Well, you told me good luck getting into Heaven as if to imply I may not make it. I asked you for Scripture and you now feel offended. I cherish the Word of God and I believe that is important that other believers do so, as well. I believe that if we are to resolve any spiritual matter, it will be with Scripture. Your recent responses seek to see something other than that (of which I find to be unbiblical). You feel I am being unloving by telling you this. That you are God to know my heart and my thoughts towards you? I am commanded by God to love you (even if I do not agree with your view of Salvation).

    In any event, may God's goodness and love be upon you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  12. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

    +699
    Catholic
    Single
    The faith with works is just plain common sense. I wonder why people think God just cares because you believe who he is. If you believe in God then you should be producing works through the fruits of the Holy Spirit. It is what a person exhibits that shows whether his faith isn't just real but correct. How would you know for sure that some one really does have faith in Jesus if there is nothing in his life that proves it?

    How many times have we've seen celebrities and politicians claim their beliefs in God, some of them having actual churches they go to, yet we eventually hear certain things that makes us all wonder?

    James says, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26)

    Justified by faith and works doesn't mean that faith is anywhere insignificant, or of lesser value. It just means that you believing in God doesn't make you a good person. There are many people who don't believe in God yet are better people than those that do and for God to send good people who don't believe in him over people who are completely vain, judgmental, and have this "holier than thou" attitude-- yet still go to church/read the bible, shows a bad god imo. Faith without works is just common sense and also understanding all the verses in the Bible that talks about it.
     
  13. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

    +535
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Paul describes the problem of sinful believers in Romans 7. Those who are in sin need to trust Christ fully and move forward into Romans 8 (after confessing our sins: 1 John 1:9). Repeat as necessary (Matthew 18:21-22).

    As for David, he was saved despite his sins because he was saved the same as Abraham was saved... He believed God (Romans 4:3) and he followed it up with works becoming that faith (1 Samuel 17; 2 Samuel 12) just as Abraham did (Genesis 22; James 2:21). To say one loses their salvation when they sin is to deny many Scriptures (2 Timothy 2:13; 1 John 1:8-10; Psalms 130:3; 1 John 4:15; Romans 10:9; etc., etc., etc.). I do believe one can apostatize and leave their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8), but sinning does not lose one's salvation, nor prove that one was never a Christian to begin with (James 3:2... note that James said "we", so unless you want to say James wasn't saved, you have to agree that we all stumble in MANY ways even after we are saved).

    Hope this helps;
    Michael
     
  14. Archer_on_Fire

    Archer_on_Fire New Member

    98
    +109
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I'd tell him:

    Realize there's nothing he can do to save himself. Good works are like filthy rags to God.

    Repent- change his mind about his attitude toward sin and about who Jesus is. To be saved, simply place his faith in Christ's death burial, and resurrection as being a sufficient sacrifice for his sins past, present, and future. Simple, as I believe God intended it to be.

    If he refused after that, I'd leave it up to God and hope a seed was planted.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  15. Archer_on_Fire

    Archer_on_Fire New Member

    98
    +109
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Yes.

    Because no one can take up their cross and deny themselves if they're not saved. So that's essentially asking someone to do what they're unable to do. Taking up the cross and denying oneself should come after one is saved-discipleship. And even then we will fail because of our sinful nature.
     
  16. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +10,280
    Christian
    Married
    The odds are that the person does not recognize or rejects the Christianese concepts of "sin" and "guilt" as we normally toss them at people.

    But if he has been enabled by the Father to receive the gospel, he's discomfited in his life and can't find comfort anywhere else. A person comfortable with his life will not accept the gospel.

    But we must be careful--we can't necessarily tell by looking. Many of those who are enabled by the father put on a show of being comfortable with their lives.

    Take the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, for instance. The tax collector probably looked very comfortable with his life at casual glance. Probably none of the other Jews thought that Zaccheus needed or wanted anything or anybody.

    But he still may not accept being called "sinner" or "lost" or any of those other Christianese terms. Those words don't mean anything to the person who is still slave to his sin nature--for that person, sin is obedience to his master.

    Christians make the mistake of trying to convict a sinner of his sin. That's not our job, that's the Holy Spirit's job. The reason we should not try to convict a sinner of his sin is because we don't know what I call his "convicting sin." That is, we don't know the sin by which the Holy Spirit is convicting him. We might see something outward while the Holy Spirit is actually convicting him of something he's kept hidden. When we try to convict him of something he doesn't even recognize as sin, that "miss" just creates resistance.

    But the Holy Spirit can tell us what to say, the precise words to use, that will work in line with what the Holy Spirit is already doing. That takes paying real attention to the Holy Spirit rather than our own pride in our own religiousity.

    Here is the thing: If a person has been enabled to accept the gospel, it's a lie from the pit of hell to tell him that he's bound for hell. That's not where God sees him--those God has enabled are those God sees with Him in eternity.
     
  17. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

    +2,533
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    If you are prideful, that means you are unwilling to acknowledge your need for a Savior.
    So, if you are unwilling to acknowledge your need for a Savior, how can you be saved.

    You say you had lots of faith and pride.
    Pride - thinking you can do it on your own.
    Faith, = you have admitted that you can't do it on your own.

    Saying you had lots of faith and pride shows me your faith was not in God. If it was, you would have acknowledged your need for a Savior and let yuur pride go
    You yourself said "God resists the proud".
    God is also the One who gives faith. You are saying God gave you faith and resisted you at the same time.
    Sounds a little silly to me.
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

    +7,701
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    No works are necessary to be saved. After we have received faith via the new birth, our hearts have been changed and we are following Christ. Good works are the evidence of what God is doing.
     
  19. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

    +7,701
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    The devils believe. You have to be born again! The new birth is given by God because we can't give it to ourselves.

    1 Corinthians 15
    10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

    It isn't "should be," it's the reality!

    God is omniscient and knows what He's doing in that person's heart and life. Men (humans) see only the outward result of genuine faith.

    Philippians 1 ESV
    6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.


    A lot of people who've never been born again go to church. My grandmother(1907-1976) went to church, but she thought people were born Christians.

    God doesn't give anyone dead faith, and unless He gives you the new birth, you're still walking in darkness.
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

    +3,279
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    Some may confuse a prideful sinner, from a now righteous sinner that is still humble, but may not seem that way to "some certain others" who are the ones actually walking in pride, especially if they think they are not a sinner...

    I guess you could do like the Pharisees and consider any and every action a "work", I guess, but I don't think that's what the Bible means by "works"... Which it actually says what kinds of works it is talking about, and it/that is the kind of works that were or are inspired and fueled by, the OT Law covenant... And it, and doing the works of it, were (and are even now) actually meant to make pride issues like "self-righteousness" and the sins associated with it, much, much worse...

    Now do you/we/me see it doing that, even today...? The answer is, yes, we most certainly do, especially a lot here on CF, and with certain "religious" people around the world... I call them "OT law people"...

    I do believe one must "cooperate" with God, maybe meet him halfway on some things, and that may require "us to do some things" or make or take certain kinds of actions, choices, and decisions in our lives, but I don't think that should be called "works"...

    The Bible is talking about the kinds of works, (that actually are sins in disguise), that are fueled and inspired by and made much worse, (wrought) (birthed) (given rise to) by the OT Law covenant... And those works are sin...

    And Paul makes this clear in his writings and he is very, very correct and very right...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
Loading...