How would this sinner be saved, without works.

[royal priest]

If you meet a prideful sinner.
How would you tell him about Jesus, in order that he would be saved.
Keeping in mind, he will do what you say.

Would you tell him to humble himself (repent)?

If you do, then are you getting him to do a work, before/in order to getting saved.

What steps would he need to take, that aren't works, in order to be saved.


Keep in mind this verse: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time"

This is a question for those who vainly throw "saved by grace, not works" verse at every opportunity.

The epitome of humilty is the acceptation that God alone is good and that all goodness finds it's source in Him. The moment I attribute any inherent goodness to myself, I deny God the glory due His name.
Our first parents were condemned for believing the idea that they could know good and evil apart from God.

 

[royal priest]

I would tell YOU that the only way we can achieve humility is by graciously accepting being humiliated.

That is wisdom. The truly humble know that humiliation (whether by God or man) is well deserved.

 

[Not David]

For those who said we believe in "salvation by works". That's a strawman because we believe that it also includes faith in Christ and grace provided by God.

 

[St_Worm2]

If you meet a prideful sinner.
How would you tell him about Jesus, in order that he would be saved.

I'm fairly certain that a non-Christian would never choose to come to Christ as long as they see no problem with/feel no guilt about their sinful behavior and lifestyle. Rather, I've found those who come to Christ are most often broken (not prideful), burdened by the tremendous weight of their sin and guilt and looking for a way out from under all of it. If someone doesn't recognize their need for a Savior, why would they choose to surrender their life to Him?

It's a miracle, is it not, that ~any~ of us chose to become Christians, especially when you consider what we were all like outside of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. (see Ephesians 2:1-3 as well)​

Considering what that verse (and the short passage from Ephesians) has to say about us, it's easy to see why the Lord told us that, "no one ~can~ come to Him apart from His Father's drawing" .. John 6:44. ("no one can" .. it's a lack of ability, not of permission)

Keeping in mind, he will do what you say.

I'm not sure what you mean by that (especially in regard to a prideful sinner)

Would you tell him to humble himself (repent)?

If you do, then are you getting him to do a work, before/in order to getting saved.

What steps would he need to take, that aren't works, in order to be saved.

We present the bad news and the good news, as well tell others what being a Christian means to us (and perhaps how we became one and why etc.), but it's the Lord who quickens/changes the hearts of His elect, His "saints to be" (if you will) and gives us the "gift" of saving faith, which we exercise when we choose to believe .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:8-9. That's why our believing (which is something that we do) is not a work that, even in part, merits our salvation.

Keep in mind this verse: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time."

St. Peter wrote this verse to believers exclusively (please take note of the preceding context in 1 Peter 5, as well the entire Epistle).

This is a question for those who vainly throw "saved by grace, not works" verse at every opportunity.

If you believe that we are saved by what we do, rather than by what Christ did for us, then 1. what was the reason for the Incarnation and the life that He lived here as a man, and 2. why did the Father send Him here to die that horrible death on the Cross (if it wasn't absolutely necessary that He do so)?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. ​

.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Seems to me the op is mostly about thwarting those that claim no works are necessary in order to be saved.

If that's the case, you really don't have to reach as far as you are to prove works are necessary, just read the very simple and clear message of the sheep and the goats parable, where Jesus puts it all right on the table. It's undeniable.

But however one chooses to prove it, those that don't want to do the works, will join the popular belief that others will share with them so they can all convince each other that it's ok to live in that world until it's too late. Sad but true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Pride and humility are not works. They are attitudes, just as faith and hope are attitudes. So it appears your attempt to justify a salvation by works soteriology isn't going to work in this case either.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, ...”

Do you not believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? If so, how do you not see that as not teaching others that God’s grace is a license for immorality? Is that not not against godliness?

 

[Greg J.]

Can you be saved without denying yourself and taking up your cross?

You have ignored what I've written, so lastly:

Being prideful is not an all or nothing issue. You're trying to push the idea that one has to meet some standard of humility in your head to be saved, but it is only God's standard that matters. You have a pre-scripted scenario in your imagination to show what is humble and prideful. But can you explain precisely what God's standard is? You seem to want to define pride as as certain point on a line below which a person cannot be saved, and above that point a person can be saved. It doesn't work like that.

God doesn't look at how prideful a person is. He looks at (actually forms) the person's heart: A person that believes God is real, Jesus His Son died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and is willing to accept Jesus as his Lord, is saved regardless of how prideful he is in general or according to whatever definition of pride and humility you care to propose.

In fact, there is no such thing as sufficient humility to be saved. That is a human attribute, but God is the Savior without respect to anything about us. God saves Who He wants to save. He draws people to Him and they are saved through the faith that He grants. It is common that such people appear to be willing to yield to God, but only God really knows their hearts.

 

[Kenny'sID]

God doesn't look at how prideful a person is. He looks at (actually forms) the person's heart: A person that believes God is real, Jesus His Son died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and is willing to accept Jesus as his Lord, is saved regardless of how prideful he is in general or according to whatever definition of pride and humility you care to propose.

If Jesus it truly his lord, haw can he be prideful?

If one truly "believes" in Jesus, they do what he teaches.

I think many of the anti works people purposely misunderstand the term believe. How can believing in someone possibly mean anything other than believing in what they are, what they teach, and what they stand for? We believe in Jesus/God, we do as they say...period.

What do they say? To do our works, be good, and they even added several lists of damnable sins to the bible so we can know how not to live, and if we do live like that, we don't really believe in what they require, hence, we don't "believe" in them...the father and the son.

 

[MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah]

You have ignored what I've written, so lastly:

Being prideful is not an all or nothing issue. You're trying to push the idea that one has to meet some standard of humility in your head to be saved, but it is only God's standard that matters. You have a pre-scripted scenario in your imagination to show what is humble and prideful. But can you explain precisely what God's standard is? You seem to want to define pride as as certain point on a line below which a person cannot be saved, and above that point a person can be saved. It doesn't work like that.

God doesn't look at how prideful a person is. He looks at (actually forms) the person's heart: A person that believes God is real, Jesus His Son died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and is willing to accept Jesus as his Lord, is saved regardless of how prideful he is in general or according to whatever definition of pride and humility you care to propose.

In fact, there is no such thing as sufficient humility to be saved. That is a human attribute, but God is the Savior without respect to anything about us. God saves Who He wants to save. He draws people to Him and they are saved through the faith that He grants. It is common that such people appear to be willing to yield to God, but only God really knows their hearts.

I think you're completely missing the point.
Jesus says, if you follow me, you must deny yourself and take up your cross.
If you don't deny yourself, meaning you're not ready to give up the things of this world, then how can you be saved?
Those are like the seed that fell between the thorny bush, and the things of this world choked the word. Those are the same who say, "I believe in Jesus", yet their hearts are far from God. Because they're full of pride, they love this world, and they can't deny their pleasures and their own abilities.
God can give his grace to whom he chooses, that's true. But, Jesus foretells us who will fall away and why.
God can give his grace, but if you're not willing to do what he says (Matthew 16:24), then you reject his grace.

 

[St_Worm2]

Seems to me the op is mostly about thwarting those that claim no works are necessary in order to be saved.

If that's the case, you really don't have to reach as far as you are to prove works are necessary, just read the very simple and clear message of the sheep and the goats parable, where Jesus puts it all right on the table. It's undeniable.

But however one chooses to prove it, those that don't want to do the works, will join the popular belief that others will share with them so they can all convince each other that it's ok to live in that world until it's too late. Sad but true.

Hi Kenny, I think we do good works once we become "His workmanship" (not before), when He has given us a new heart and a new spirit, caused us to be born again, when we have been indwelt by the HS and have been made into wholly new creatures in Christ .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10, not before. IOW, our choice to do good works is the "result", not the cause of our salvation.

We choose to please, honor, glorify and obey the One we know and love, not Someone that we don't know/have never met .. cf Matthew 7:22-23; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

This is true of the sheep in Matthew 25. After all, the sheep are the ones who are blessed of the Father, the ones for whom the inheritance of the Kingdom was intended from the foundation of the world .. Matthew 25:34.

We are saved by grace through faith, apart from anything that 'we' do. We do good works 'because' we are saved, because we are ~already~ His .. Ephesians 2:8-10.

Yours and His,
David

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.
.​

 

[Kenny'sID]

For those who said we believe in "salvation by works".

The thing about that is, I don't know anyone here who has ever claimed such a thing, but I have seem many accuse us of that but when asked to show us who claimed a works only salvation, they never can.

That's a strawman because we believe that it also includes faith in Christ and grace provided by God.

"Faith and works"

"Faith without works is dead" If we say we have faith but don't show it by doing as the ones we say we have faith in has told us to do, we don't have faith, simple as that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hi Kenny, I think we do good works once we become "His workmanship" (not before),

Hello, St Worm. Yes, If we truly have faith in Christ, we do, however, I know plenty of people who make the claim they have faith and that is all that is necessary..showing it is not a requirement. Those are the ones I'm referring to.

 

[PaulCyp1]

We are saved by grace if we DO the works that His grace enables us to do. If we receive His grace, but DO nothing different as a result, we will certainly not be saved. Which is why Jesus said "It is not those who say "Lord, Lord" who will enter the Kingdom, but those who DO the will of the Father".

 

[Kenny'sID]

"It is not those who say "Lord, Lord" who will enter the Kingdom, but those who DO the will of the Father".

Well stated.

Doing the will of the father = works or to actually do something, and not just talk/say "I have faith".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Kenny, I think we do good works once we become "His workmanship" (not before), when He has given us a new heart and a new spirit, caused us to be born again, when we have been indwelt by the HS and have been made into wholly new creatures in Christ .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10, not before. IOW, our choice to do good works is the "result", not the cause of our salvation.

We choose to please, honor, glorify and obey the One we know and love, not Someone that we don't know/have never met .. cf Matthew 7:22-23; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

This is true of the sheep in Matthew 25. After all, the sheep are the ones who are blessed of the Father, the ones for whom the inheritance of the Kingdom was intended from the foundation of the world .. Matthew 25:34.

We are saved by grace through faith, apart from anything that 'we' do. We do good works 'because' we are saved, because we are ~already~ His .. Ephesians 2:8-10.

Yours and His,
David

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.
.​

I cannot remember if I asked you this or not, but do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have ignored what I've written, so lastly:

Being prideful is not an all or nothing issue. You're trying to push the idea that one has to meet some standard of humility in your head to be saved, but it is only God's standard that matters. You have a pre-scripted scenario in your imagination to show what is humble and prideful. But can you explain precisely what God's standard is? You seem to want to define pride as as certain point on a line below which a person cannot be saved, and above that point a person can be saved. It doesn't work like that.

God doesn't look at how prideful a person is. He looks at (actually forms) the person's heart: A person that believes God is real, Jesus His Son died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and is willing to accept Jesus as his Lord, is saved regardless of how prideful he is in general or according to whatever definition of pride and humility you care to propose.

In fact, there is no such thing as sufficient humility to be saved. That is a human attribute, but God is the Savior without respect to anything about us. God saves Who He wants to save. He draws people to Him and they are saved through the faith that He grants. It is common that such people appear to be willing to yield to God, but only God really knows their hearts.

I just do not get the same impression you do when I read the Scriptures. Especially these verses:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[St_Worm2]

I cannot remember if I asked you this or not, but do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Hi Jason, yes, as best I can tell anyway. After all, after King David sinned, he pleaded with God to create a clean heart and renew a right & steadfast spirit within him, to take not His Holy Spirit from him, and to restore the joy of His salvation (IOW, it was the "joy" of His salvation that was lost when he sinned, not his salvation, just like it is for us today).

And just like our earthly fathers didn't dropkick us out the front door and disown whenever we messed up as kids, neither does our Father in Heaven, who loves us so much that He sent His Son here to die for us so that we wouldn't be lost to Him

--David

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, yes, as best I can tell anyway. After all, after King David sinned, he pleaded with God to create a clean heart and renew a right & steadfast spirit within him, to take not His Holy Spirit from him, and to restore the joy of His salvation (IOW, it was the "joy" of His salvation that was lost when he sinned, not his salvation, just like it is for us today).

And just like our earthly fathers didn't dropkick us out the front door and disown whenever we messed up as kids, neither does our Father in Heaven, who loves us so much that He sent His Son here to die for us so that we wouldn't be lost to Him

--David

So then when you tell a person that King David is saved while committing his sins of adultery and murder, how is that not teaching others that they don't have a license to sin?

They can easily think that if you are teaching that King David was saved while committing his sins of adultery and murder, then they can also murder and commit adultery and be saved, too. Ever hear of George Sodini? George Sodini was a Eternal Security Proponent who thought he could kill a bunch of people and then take his own life and that he would be saved in the end, all because he had a belief on Jesus (See this article here). This is in essence what he admitted in his suicide letter. How is he different than King David?

For me: When you admit to things like this, it makes me think that your saying before that a believer has a new nature is simply not true, and doesn't really mean anything. Where is the holiness when one says that King David was saved in his sins? I really don't see how one can be good and yet also say that you can murder and commit adultery and be in God's good graces. We are to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). If that is the case, then we cannot justify sin because Christ (Who is God) cannot justify sin. In other words, what you believe is a contradiction. You want to be in line with that which is holy and good, but yet on the other hand, you destroy that concept by saying we can sin and still be saved (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality) by saying King David was saved in his sins.

As for the Spirit and David:

I believe this was for the purpose of being led as a king and it was not like today where believers are given the Spirit as seal of their redemption.

"Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward." (1 Samuel 16:13).

Was David unsaved before this anointing?

As for the drop kicking statement and family:

Well, I am pretty sure if a teenager had committed a really serious crime in their home like say murder or rape, etc. they could possibly face the law because what parent would want that kind of destruction in their home? There are kinds of sins that are unacceptable. If they are minor transgressions, that is one thing, but the parent would try to discipline the child over minor transgressions. If they were to do some major crime, there is no guarantee that the parent would want to be in bed with that evil or crime that could cause more trouble upon their home (Whereby other family members would be at serious harm in some way).

 

[JimBeta]

All sins can be forgiven, also the sin of pride.
But once one accept Jesus Christ as Lord and His work and the mercy of God as salvation, even the most pridefull person humbles himself because he does not take account for salvation by anything he does but what God has done. That makes the pridefull sinner humble, even if he stays pridefull in other regards.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All sins can be forgiven, also the sin of pride.
But once one accept Jesus Christ as Lord and His work and the mercy of God as salvation, even the most pridefull person humbles himself because he does not take account for salvation by anything he does but what God has done. That makes the pridefull sinner humble, even if he stays pridefull in other regards.

Can a believer be prideful and be saved?

No. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not consent to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Future sin forgiven?

No. Only past sins are forgiven: See 2 Peter 1:9, 1 John 1:9, Hebrews 10:26, Proverbs 28:13, Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11, Acts of the Apostles 8:22, and 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.