How to walk in the Spirit.

[fhansen]

ell, Salvation is a positional change
Its also an eternal change.
Its a birth into God's Spirit. (Born again).
So, that is definitely a change.
A person goes from "lost sinner" to "saved Saint".
A person goes from being a child of the devil to a Son of God.
A person goes from damned to Righteous.

And God does all of this. Philippians 1:6

Our part is to receive it.
We receive this "Gift of Salvation" and "Gift of Righteousness".

After this happens (born again) we learn how to exist in correct faith, which is to "work out your salvation".

We're told over and over again in scripture what we must do to gain eternal life-and you seem to overlook much of it. Faith, itself, isn't the righteousness that justifies and saves us, as if it replaces personal righteousness in man, or is the equivalent of righteousness, rather faith introduces and connects us to Righteousness, who makes us just. We're saved by being made salvageable, by being justified, something we can't do on our own. Righteousness that is born of that faith, love that is born of that faith, of that relationship, defines man's justice/righteousness. Of course God does all this. We don't even exist without Him and certainly could never bring ourselves to the justice or righteousness that makes us right in His eyes. That failure of man to fulfill the law is the lesson of the Old Covenant. Our part is to accept, as you say, and to cooperate. He wants that-doesn't need that-but wants it.

 

[fhansen]

Righteousness is God's Blood.
If possible....then just think of God's Righteousness as The Cross, as its from the Cross, you find God doing what is necessary to deal with the sin of the world.

And love defines the righteousness that would do that, that would cause God to shed blood in human flesh, to suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death at the hands of His own creation if that's what it takes to prove a love so wide and long and high and deep that we can only just barely begin to fathom it, and, hopefully, turn to and embrace it for ourselves, that holiness, that righteousness.
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." Eph 3:18

 

[ozso]

It will be according to God's judgment -of how well I did with whatever He gave me. And the criteria, for those with understanding, is this:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

You're saying, if I understand correctly, that if someone gets hit by a bus tomorrow he must have faith, or else he'll be cast into hell, eternal torment. I'm only saying, along with scripture, that he must have more than that.

No I'm not saying anything in this case. I'm just trying to understand.

It sounds like you're saying if you didn't do a good enough job here on earth you'll be cast into hell.

However, "the criteria, for those with understanding, is this: "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

[ozso]

What yo are describing is a person who is religious, trying to keep themselves saved.
That would be a believer who is "fallen from Grace". and is in "the Flesh".
Thats most of them.
Very few believers, in this world, believe that the Blood of Christ is their salvation, and that is why they always talk about what they are trying to DO.
Thats "Legalsim", and this actually denies the Cross.
If a person teaches it, then they are this. Galatians 1:8

So a believer can lose their salvation? And more specifically, lose their salvation if they don't get things perfectly right?

 

[ozso]

We're told over and over again in scripture what we must do to gain eternal life-and you seem to overlook much of it. Faith, itself, isn't the righteousness that justifies and saves us, as if it replaces personal righteousness in man, or is the equivalent of righteousness, rather faith introduces and connects us to Righteousness, who makes us just. We're saved by being made salvageable, by being justified, something we can't do on our own. Righteousness that is born of that faith, love that is born of that faith, of that relationship, defines man's justice/righteousness. Of course God does all this. We don't even exist without Him and certainly could never bring ourselves to the justice or righteousness that makes us right in His eyes. That failure of man to fulfill the law is the lesson of the Old Covenant. Our part is to accept, as you say, and to cooperate. He wants that-doesn't need that-but wants it.

That doesn't sound too far from Sidon's theology as I understand it. However in that theology the only way that God is going to see us as righteous is through the blood and only the blood.

 

[ozso]

Easily.
You can take the "poll" for yourself.

First, let me show you how Paul describes these people, who are born again, yet have stopped trusting in Christ to KEEP THEM SAVED.

See, thats the PROOF, as that is their spiritual/faith problem.

listen.....ITS NOT, if you believe that Christ is the Savior, but rather its , Do you believe that Christ Keeps you saved or not.
And 99% of born again Christians do no believe He does, and that is why they they will tell you that they can lose their salvation.
They will tell you that you can lose yours, also.
And that is the PROOF that they have lost trust in CHRIST, as they do not believe Christ keeps them saved.

Paul, in Galatians, says that these believers, are "bewitched", and "fallen from Grace" and are "in the Flesh".
Paul is correct.

Now, lets establish Salvation.
Its God coming here, as Jesus....... to eternally reconcile us to God. He did. Its done, 2000 yrs ago.
That is Salvation. Its the completed blood atonement.
God offers it at a GIFT. Its this. John 3:16

Now, this completed blood atonement does not include anyone's self effort, or commandment keeping, or works of any kind.
And once a person begins to try to add them to the Cross, they are doing this to try to stay saved, or to keep from losing their salvation.

So, you find most believers, are like this, and that is why they will argue until they explode that you can lose your salvaiton.
See, if they trusted Christ, they would trust Him and Him alone to keep them saved.
They dont. They DO NOT.
And that is about 99% of Christians.

Its no different on this Forum.
Its no different on any forum.
Its no different in MOST denominations.

What I've noticed as a trend here is those saying the opposite. That most Christians believe once saved always saved. Which they often phrase as "most Christians these days believe/teach that it's okay to sin".

 

[ozso]

So you've taken a poll and thereby have determined that very few believers, in this world, believe that the Blood of Christ is their salvation. Can you show us the actual data, or is this just your opinion? Have you ever read this: “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own?" Matthew 7:1-3

Here's a poll of sorts. As far as I can tell this ministry teaches what Sidon teaches.

Quiz: Bibleline Ministries - 'Am I going to Heaven?'

Am I going to heaven quiz results:

89543 passed.

107127 failed.

Bibleline Ministries

 

[Sidon]

The Christian walk as defined by Paul
“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
‬‬

Lets look at what you posted, and bring it into the context of a Born again person's discipleship.

1.) walk no longer as the gentiles..... in the futility of their mind

Now this is explaining the religious mind of self righteousness, or the idea of trying to reach God or become God by self effort. (Religion).
This is all religions. = Its the religious mind.
Its the mind of the flesh that is trying by self deeds to be accepted by whatever deity the gentiles are chasing, or, in New Age understanding its trying to BECOME Deity or release the deity that is in you, they teach.

And where the born again fall prey to a similar MENTAL futility is when they are trying to keep themselves saved, or they are trying by self effort to save themselves.
So, anyone who is trying to not lose their salvation, or believes they can, are counting on THEMSELVES to maintain it, and that is the "futility", or as Paul defines them....>"fallen FROM Grace". "bewitched", and "in the flesh".

 

[Sidon]

I We must play our role, however small. We must pick up our cross daily and follow Him.

The issue with playing your role, as you are stating..... becomes a real issue when the person falsely believes that "playing their role" is how they keep themselves saved.
So, once that deceived mindset takes hold, then they are no longer trusting Christ, but have substituted their "role playing" as their means to be saved.
Paul says that this person is "bewitched" "fallen from Grace", and "in the Flesh".

This person has not understood that Salvation is What GOD did, and our discipleship (the role playing) is what we do because we are saved, and never do we do this to try to be saved, or remain saved.

 

[Sidon]

Yes, its more than a positional change, we go from unrighteous to righteous, meaning more than a declared righteousness, more than a right standing in Gods eyes only, without regard to our possessing personal righteousness now. That would be like God burying His head in the sand and refusing to admit the truth-that, in fact, we still sin. So it means that we now put to death the deeds of the flesh (sin), because we possess the righteousness that's part and parcel of being a child of God and walking in His Spirit. Otherwise we die.

Well, you say that you still sin ,and then then you say that you put sin to death.

So, it cant be both.

So think of it like this...
Here is the question.
Lets say you asked me if i still sin.
And i respond....."is there any sin in Christ".
And you respond....>"no, there is no sin IN CHRIST".
And i say.....well, im "in Christ".

fhansen, This issue you have, one of them, theologically, is that you are not seeing yourself as only the born again, new creation.
You are instead seeing yourself as a "saved sinner" who is the old man trying to be good.

So, until you stop filtering your perception of who you are "in Christ" through the mind of the flesh, then you will continue to think of yourself in opposition to God's perspective of you.

 

[Sidon]

We're told over and over again in scripture what we must do to gain eternal life-.

Unless you are Jesus on the Cross, you can't gain "eternal Life".
As Eternal life is gained by God on the Cross.
Check your nail prints.
Do you see any?
If you do, then you have gained your eternal life.
If you dont have any then you need to not believe that you have the capacity to save yourself from your sin.
You dont have that capacity, and you need to let go of your self saving mentality and trust only in the Blood of Jesus as your eternal atonement.

 

[Sidon]

"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." Eph 3:18

Thats a good verse.

Look at it like this..
Even the worst Christ Rejecting person, probably has a friend they love., and they might very well, lay down their life for them..

But what did God do?
He laid down His life for His ENEMIES... as that is God's Love.
That is supernatural love.
Christ was dying on The Cross, and was looking down at the people who hated Him, and He LOVED THEM, and asked His Father to FORGIVE THEM.
And GOD DID.

See all that?
That's agape Love, that's GOD's supernatural LOVE.
And THAT love, lives inside us, and we are to become this as our Spiritual Fruit.

 

[Sidon]

So a believer can lose their salvation? And more specifically, lose their salvation if they don't get things perfectly right?

Jesus is our Salvation.
Jesus is our Eternal Life.

Salvation is not a deed or a self effort.
Salvation is JESUS Himself.
So, if you have Jesus in you, you have Salvation, and the proof is being born again.

Jesus can't ever leave you, if He is in you.
Why?
Because He said this....>"I will never leave you, or forsake you".....and that is by being IN YOU.
See, He's not talking to the unbelievers, He's describing Himself as this.

"Christ IN YOU< the hope of Glory", and all the born again being "ONE WITH GOD, In Christ".

We the born again, have Christ in us, and that is our SALVATiON, and our ETERNAL Life.
Its HIM., and we have HIM, and that is why we can't lose salvation.
We can't lose HIM< as He will never leave us or forsake us..

Let me show you how eternal this situation is....

If a born again person, went to hell, then God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, would go there with you, as they are all IN YOU< and where you go they go.
See that?

The born again , are already in Heaven. "seated in Heavenly Places, IN CHRIST".

So, its really simple. When you have Jesus, you have Salvation, and this means that wherever Christ is, all the born again are..

Notice this verse..

"As JESUS IS......so are all the born again, in THIS world'.

And that is a fact that can never be changed.

 

[Sidon]

That doesn't sound too far from Sidon's theology as I understand it. However in that theology the only way that God is going to see us as righteous is through the blood and only the blood.

Righteousness is the Shed Blood of Jesus, and the Death of Christ, as proven by the Resurrection.

John 14:6. Jesus is the only WAY to God.

Its through Him, and this is the BLOOD that is the reconciliation.

WE belong to God because God created the way for us to belong to Him.
Jesus is THE WAY.
And there is no other way to belong to God.

 

[Sidon]

What I've noticed as a trend here is those saying the opposite. That most Christians believe once saved always saved. Which they often phrase as "most Christians these days believe/teach that it's okay to sin".

Jude dealt with this twisting of God's Grace, into legalism.
Paul dealt with these same types, who accused Paul of teaching "sin to bring Grace".

So, here is the situation.

The Grace of God, is a Gift. And this Gift, is eternal righteousness, that is based on the Blood of God.
So, a legalist changes this, into....>"ok, God saved me, but now i have to ...do, do, do, and dont do, to keep myself saved".
So, that is a rejection of the Cross and the Grace of God that pretends that its God's Grace.
See it?
So, what these deceived people do, in Jude's day, and in Paul's day, and until now, is they twist God's Grace and deny it....like this..
= They refuse to accept that you do nothing to be saved, and they replace it, with, "self saving" theology.
And what does that does, what that theology does, is it replaces GRACE with WORKS.
And they say it like this....>"well, you are teaching LICENSE TO SIN"....
And in fact, THEY are denying GRACE, by saying that GOD's GRACE is License.
And that theology, is this..... Galatians 1:8

You'll find this theology RAMPANT on forums and in denominations.
Its Cross Rejecting Legalism.

 

[fhansen]

No I'm not saying anything in this case. I'm just trying to understand.

It sounds like you're saying if you didn't do a good enough job here on earth you'll be cast into hell.

However, "the criteria, for those with understanding, is this: "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

I don't understand what you're saying.

Hmm. It's been said in many ways on this thread IMO but I'll try to sum it up. Under the New Covenant man is still obligated to be personally righteous-that doesn't change. Sin separated man from God to begin with and will continue to in the future. When the time was ripe Jesus came to address this problem once and for all, to take away the sins of the world. From our perspective faith is the cure, because it places us back into right relationship with God. Justice, itself, demands this because man is lost and disordered-sinful- without it. So God is immensely pleased with faith, this turning of man back to Himself. The Old Covenant served, for one thing, to teach us one important lesson, that man, on his own, cannot be good enough to please God. Man’s real “job” is to come into relationship with Him first of all, a relationship of humble love, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. To the extent that we do this, becoming like God, who is love, all the harm that one human causes to another would disappear; love excludes sin by its nature (Rom 13:8-10). That love, love of God and neighbor, the greatest commandments, is the goal of the new Covenant. That would make our obedience and righteousness flow naturally and willingly, of its own accord. If Adam was ready for it in Eden, he never would’ve disobeyed. And faith is the doorway to this love, because faith is the entrance way to God for man. But love is the core, the heart and soul of Christianity. It's the motivation behind everything Jesus said and did-it’s the reason why we need to believe in God, so we can come to love Him -and neighbor-as He first loved us (1 John 4:19).


But some have come to focus so exclusively and myopically on faith, as if it, by itself, is almost a single one-time magical cure for all that ails fallen man-almost as if faith defines, or replaces the need for, righteousness for man and nothing else is necessary in order to be right with God, and therefore saved. But the New Covenant does not abolish our need to fulfill the law, rather it finally provides us with the only authentic means to fulfill it, by the Spirit, with God rather than apart from Him. Man’s obligation to be righteous can only be fulfilled by love. Man is obligated to love. And that love is a gift, a work of God’s in us, and a human choice, to accept and embrace and live that gift. To the extent that we do, God’s universe comes back into order. That’s what He wants, that’s what He expects, from and for us. Because there’s no greater gift. It's the gift of Himself. And love acts, for the good of others, by its nature, as Jesus did; it's the opposite of legalism.

 

[Sidon]

It will be according to God's judgment -of how well I did with whatever He gave me. And the criteria, for those with understanding, is this:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Is your verse from the book of mormon? or JW?
Where did that one come from.


Listen, at the Judgement seat of Christ, you'll be judged for "what you did in the body".
The body is the "body of Christ", and "what you did" is your lifetime of fruit.
Jesus will look at it, and some will be wood, hay, stubble, and some will be the good stuff.
The Good stuff, is all the times you did something for God, as a work, and your motive was true., vs, all the times you did something that was "christian"< and you did it because you wanted the people around you, or on a forum, to think of you as something speicial.

So, at the bema seat, God is going to examine your MOTIVE< and not your works.
Did you do all that "christian stuff" because you had a true heart of service, or did you do ti because you were filled with a "look at me" self righteousness, mentality.

See, you can fake fruit down here, but up there, it's all REVEALED.

 

[fhansen]

Is your verse from the book of mormon? or JW?
Where did that one come from.


Listen, at the Judgement seat of Christ, you'll be judged for "what you did in the body".
The body is the "body of Christ", and "what you did" is your lifetime of fruit.
Jesus will look at it, and some will be wood, hay, stubble, and some will be the good stuff.
The Good stuff, is all the times you did something for God, as a work, and your motive was true., vs, all the times you did something that was "christian"< and you did it because you wanted the people around you, or on a forum, to think of you as something speicial.

So, at the bema seat, God is going to examine your MOTIVE< and not your works.
Did you do all that "christian stuff" because you had a true heart of service, or did you do ti because you were filled with a "look at me" self righteousness, mentality.

See, you can fake fruit down here, but up there, it's all REVEALED.

If you understand my post just previous to this one, you'll understand the last line. Love is the opposite of legalism. When love is your motive, everything you do is righteous-and aligned with God's will. That quote above comes right from the heart of our faith, for someone who knows God,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

And that's why Jesus could tell us in Matt 22:40 that, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." To love. Then read 1 Cor 13. Love never says, "Look at me."

 

[ozso]

If you understand my post just previous to this one, you'll understand the last line. Love is the opposite of legalism. When love is your motive, everything you do is righteous-and aligned with God's will. That quote above comes right from the heart of our faith, for someone who knows God,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

And that's why Jesus could tell us in Matt 22:40 that, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." To love. Then read 1 Cor 13. Love never says, "Look at me."

Since you're making it out to be a quote from someone/something, we are wondering what the source is.

 

[fhansen]

Since you're making it out to be a quote from someone/something, we are wondering what the source is.

The quote is from a 16th century believer in Spain. He was known by the title John of the Cross. Here's another quote, from Basil of Caesarea this time, a 4th century believer in this case,
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."