How to walk in the Spirit.

[BNR32FAN]

The NT often speaks of those in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom, like tares.

I don’t think you were paying attention to 2 Timothy 2:12 in regards to this reply. Surely we can agree that both Paul and Timothy were in fact both in and of the kingdom of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here's the thing though 2 Timothy 2:12 is only a piece of a saying. The whole thing goes:

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

I figure those who teach OSAS use verse 13, the opposite way you used verse 12.

Then we would be saved without having faith? What Paul is referring to is when Jesus said anyone who denies Me I will deny before The Father. If we are faithless He remains faithful to do what He said He would do because He cannot deny/contradict Himself.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Then we would be saved without having faith? What Paul is referring to is when Jesus said anyone who denies Me I will deny before The Father. If we are faithless He remains faithful to do what He said He would do because He cannot deny/contradict Himself.

I took it more as meaning losing faith if Paul meat him and Timothy since they are already saved through faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I took it more as meaning losing faith if Paul meat him and Timothy since they are already saved through faith.

I think you had a typo “meat” Im not sure I completely understand what your saying here.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I think you had a typo “meat” Im not sure I completely understand what your saying here.

I'm on my phone at work.

I took it more as meaning losing faith, if Paul meant him and Timothy, since they were already saved through faith.

13 if we (Paul and Timothy) are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm on my phone at work.

I took it more as meaning losing faith, if Paul meant him and Timothy, since they were already saved through faith.

13 if we (Paul and Timothy) are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

That would mean that we only have to have faith at one particular time in our life then we don’t need it anymore to be saved.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That would mean that we only have to have faith at one particular time in our life then we don’t need it anymore to be saved.

Which is what the OP has been saying all along.

Not that we don't need faith. But rather we don't have to continue in faith to stay saved.

I know someone who had faith, lost it for years, and then regained it. Was he born-again, un-born-again, re-born-again?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which is what the OP has been saying all along.

Not that we don't need faith. But rather we don't have to continue in faith to stay saved.

I know someone who had faith, lost it for years, and then regained it. Was he born-again, un-born-again, re-born-again?

Yes as long as we repent before it’s too late we will be saved.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yes as long as we repent before it’s too late we will be saved.

IDK the born, unborn, reborn, sealed, unsealeld, resealed idea doesn't quite gel for me. And how much faith to we have to maintain to stay saved? What if our faith dips below the threshold for a couple of weeks?

 

[BNR32FAN]

IDK the born, unborn, reborn, sealed, unsealeld, resealed idea doesn't quite gel for me. And how much faith to we have to maintain to stay saved? What if our faith dips below the threshold for a couple of weeks?

no one is ever “unsealed” with the Holy Spirit. Paul made this evident in Ephesians 4:30. That is not to say that those who continuously grieve the Holy Spirit will be saved. I think what it means is that once we receive the Holy Spirit He will forever be urging us to repent and return to Christ if we should ever fall away. I don’t think we will ever lose our guidance from the Holy Spirit but we can surely ignore it and once again become a “son of disobedience”.

As far as faith goes I don’t believe there is a measurement that is required for salvation so long as we don’t have a complete absence of it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

IDK the born, unborn, reborn, sealed, unsealeld, resealed idea doesn't quite gel for me. And how much faith to we have to maintain to stay saved? What if our faith dips below the threshold for a couple of weeks?

In Galatians 5 Paul said that the Galatians were “running well” indicating that they were born again but when they began to seek justification thru obedience to the law they had fallen from grace and were severed from Christ. Being severed from Christ we can do nothing of our own accord, everything good comes from God. I would say that the implications here are that they have in fact become unborn of God.

 

[Ceallaigh]

no one is ever “unsealed” with the Holy Spirit. Paul made this evident in Ephesians 4:30. That is not to say that those who continuously grieve the Holy Spirit will be saved. I think what it means is that once we receive the Holy Spirit He will forever be urging us to repent and return to Christ if we should ever fall away. I don’t think we will ever lose our guidance from the Holy Spirit but we can surely ignore it and once again become a “son of disobedience”.

As far as faith goes I don’t believe there is a measurement that is required for salvation so long as we don’t have a complete absence of it.

That I agree with completely. I have had periods of disobedience. But I've never lost faith and my disobedience had its limits. There were lines that would never be crossed where I lived like the devil with reckless abandonment. I felt conviction and knew I was falling short and wasn't happy about it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That I agree with completely. I have had periods of disobedience. But I've never lost faith and my disobedience had its limits. There were lines that would never be crossed where I lived like the devil with reckless abandonment. I felt conviction and knew I was falling short and wasn't happy about it.

Amen, I don’t think we can ever feel as barren or numb about sin as we did before we came to Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Here's the thing though 2 Timothy 2:12 is only a piece of a saying. The whole thing goes:

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

I figure those who teach OSAS might use verse 13, the opposite way you used verse 12.

I think the second line of verse 12 pretty much cancels that thought out though. God is faithful and true and loving regardless of our disposition and attitude towards Him. We're still the wildcard. At the end of the day He'll allow us to be disowned even though He wants all to come to Him-and remain in Him.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Amen, I don’t think we can ever feel as barren or numb about sin as we did before we came to Christ.

I've known him since childhood, so I don't have that as comparison. Just my high points vs my low points.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I've known him since childhood, so I don't have that as comparison. Just my high points vs my low points.

I didn’t come to Christ until I was 38 years old. So I can see a difference in how I view sin after coming to Christ as compared to how numb I was to it before coming to Him.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I think the second line of verse 12 pretty much cancels that thought out though. God is faithful and true and loving regardless of our disposition and attitude towards Him. We're still the wildcard. At the end of the day He'll allow us to be disowned even though He wants all to come to Him-and remain in Him.

So more along the lines of God letting you leave your salvation, rather than God taking it from you?

 

[Ceallaigh]

I didn’t come to Christ until I was 38 years old. So I can see a difference in how I view sin after coming to Christ as compared to how numb I was to it before coming to Him.

Sometimes I wish I had that frame of reference. My weakness has been falling into complacency. That was going on last year, and then I finally snapped out of it. That brought me here. This daily internet fellowshiping helps me to stay frosty.

 

[fhansen]

So more along the lines of God letting you leave your salvation, rather than God taking it from you?

Yes, some people will argue this point all day long but an essential aspect of the faith is that man's will is never completely uninvolved in the process. He can't move himself to the true God and yet he can say still "no" to Him, whether no to faith or no at any point thereafter, after conversion. Grace is resistible IOW and the entire bible as it reveals the work of God through human history tells of God appealing to and drawing man into rectitude or righteousness, without finally making or determining that decision for him. And that freedom, BTW, to ultimately reject God and His love, is the only reason that hell is even a possibility.

 

[Clare73]

I don't rely on the law;

Straw man.

Nah, to repeat myself. Jesus, who-is-love, never shied from the truth, even if it offended,

It's not about the "truth." It's about the language.

Don't recall Jesus using language in regard to believers (born again) such as "priggish rubbish or BS." (Titus 2:6-8; Philippians 4:8)

Kinda' gives the lie to your signature.


"It is love alone that gives worth to all things." Teresa of Avila
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