How to walk in the Spirit.

[Servus]

Yes, it gets confusing, and there are different varieties of beliefs out there. Differences involve the nature of justification, and what if any, role the human will plays in it all. So Catholicism teaches this, which should be similar to Eastern Orthodox teachings in general:
1989 "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
"Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life." Rom 6:22-23

So justification is taught to be a one-time event, as a new birth into God's family, but also one that must continue to be realized even more as we grow, as we grow nearer to God, which is our purpose, and therefore even greater in justice, holiness, righteousness. And that righteousness, that love- to truly flesh out the meaning of the term- will be challenged throughout our lives as were still attracted to sin, not yet fully sanctified and renewed IOW. We can always stray from the family values.

In Catholic teaching, going all the way back, man can do nothing to turn himself to God; man is lost.
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

So in Catholic teaching the will of man is never completely uninvolved, in that he can say no. Another way to put this is to say that grace is resistible. Some Protestant denominations agree with this while others adamantly reject it. Justification is totally a free gift either way in response to our faith.

Some state that we can't possibly lose that state of justice once we receive it, due especially to the fact that they consider it to be imputed only and not given as a personal possession. In Catholicism however, righteousness is a gift and one which we can waste and squander or which we can invest in terms of the parable of the talents for example. Again, the will of man is never totally out of the picture so we must work out our salvation, we must grow in the sanctity which leads to eternal life, cooperating with grace and then let God decide at the end how well we've done with all that. Meanwhile, If we're honest with ourselves, we should have a pretty good idea.

"…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

That's a good overview, but it didn't really address what I was asking.

 

[Clare73]

I presented only the post's conclusion. The post was rather lengthy and included the exegesis of Romans 5:18-19 on the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind.

And yet sanctification is more than works, but holiness, inner change,

Do you not understand that holiness, inner change are the result of the works of obedience/sanctification in the Holy Spirit?

I do not have a clear understanding of your response to the exegesis of Romans 5:18-19,
(post #423) How to walk in the Spirit, regarding the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind.
Could you clarify that for me?

most notably the virtue called love which happens to produce works by its nature. That righteousness should define the justice or righteousness of justification, and explain why a believer begins to sin less and help his neighbor more, such things as he must do to inherit eternal life. As we know from Heb 12:14 and elsewhere
"...without holiness no one will see the Lord."

Heck, God won't even forgive us our sins unless we forgive others (Matt 6:15), such is His demand that we follow Him in His love and mercy. And who would or should argue against such a righteous demand anyway? Again, as James tells us,
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

Faith is the doorway to righteousness; it doesn't define it. And all of this, whether faith or holiness and righteousness and love and the works they produce are all gifts of grace flowing from the one same Source anyway.

 

[Clare73]

Yep happens so often. People read a verse about a specific group of people and think it applies to everyone throughout all time. One prime example is 1 John 2:19.

No more than "they froze to death in the sub-zero temperature because they were without protection" applies to everyone of all time.

 

[fhansen]

That's a good overview, but it didn't really address what I was asking.

So if we are born-again, born of the spirit, aren't we automatically endowed with these attributes from the one same Source? If not, how can we manage acceptable levels of, faith, holiness, righteousness and love through our own ablity apart from the one same Source? In other words if it all comes from God, doesn't that mean we already have it?

But that's the question, if righteousness is only imputed to man at justification rather than his being made actually righteous, then we're not automatically endowed with these attributes. I believe Luther offered that we change our behavior out of gratitude for salvation, but that doesn't resonate as true at all. We're not going to change unless we are changed.

 

[fhansen]

Being "most often" the language of the celebration is not much help in reading the Greek Scriptures.
The problem was probably lack of most careful attention to consistency with all that is revealed about "justification" in the NT.

I don't think you understood the point. Those churches were Greek speaking to begin with-and they received the gospel at the beginning as well. And they even continue to use ancient Greek in their celebrations to this day.

 

[Servus]

But that's the question, if righteousness is only imputed to man at justification rather than his being made actually righteous, then we're not automatically endowed with these attributes.

So how are we made actually righteous after justification?

 

[fhansen]

So how are we made actually righteous after justification?

At justification were made just, that's the idea, by the only One who could ever do so to begin with. Man's problem, the basis of his injustice and the essence of the state known as "original sin", is spiritual separation from God, sometimes called the "death of the soul". Faith is the entrance way back to communion with God-and therefore faith, itself, is the beginning point of our righteousness.

 

[fhansen]

Do you not understand that holiness, inner change are the result of the works of obedience/sanctification in the Holy Spirit?

I do not have a clear understanding of your response to the exegesis of Romans 5:18-19,
(post #423) How to walk in the Spirit, regarding the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind.
Could you clarify that for me?

I'll respond to this later.

 

[Clare73]

Being "most often" the language of the celebration is not much help in reading the Greek Scriptures.

The problem was probably lack of most careful attention to consistency with all that is revealed about "justification" in the NT.

I don't think you understood the point. Those churches were Greek speaking to begin with-and they received the gospel at the beginning as well. And they even continue to use ancient Greek in their celebrations to this day.

That leaves only the second reason, which I see actually demonstrated, not only regarding

justification (dikaioo) and its Greek definition: "pronounced righteous, acquitted of guilt"
(Romans 4:25, Romans 5:18), but also in

failure to grasp the exact and direct imputation of Adam's sin presented in Romans 5:18-19.

 

[Servus]

At justification were made just, that's the idea, by the only One who could ever do so to begin with. Man's problem, the basis of his injustice and the essence of the state known as "original sin", is spiritual separation from God, sometimes called the "death of the soul". Faith is the entrance way back to communion with God-and therefore faith, itself, is the beginning point of our righteousness.

Let me put it another way. You said actually made righteous. If we are made that way, then isn't that what we are by default?

 

[Sidon]

Hmm, I wasn't referring to His pretense or imagination.

You were referring to my teaching that we are made righteous by the Gift of Righteousness, which is the blood atonement.

You referred to it as "pretense".

Did you want to do it again?
Or just deny that you did it , again?

 

[Servus]

That leaves only the second reason, which I see actually demonstrated, not only regarding

justification (dikaioo) and its Greek definition: "pronounced righteous, acquitted of guilt"
(Romans 4:25, Romans 5:18), but also in

failure to grasp the exact and direct imputation of Adam's sin presented in Romans 5:18-19.

It seems to me like the idea is we're still supposed to be guilty and we have to atone our guilt by living a righteous life filled with works. And then we have to wait until we stand before God to see if we did a good enough job.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes.

Just as once you're born you stay born; once you're born-again, you stay born-again.

That's what the OP has been saying the entire time.

What can be said in a single sentence has been dragged out over 500 pages.

Yeah I just needed him to admit it so that others who may read this discussion can see it for themselves in order to better understand his official position. So this contradicts where Jesus said that many will fall away but the one who endures to the end will be saved as well as Paul in Colossians 1:22-23.

 

[Sidon]

Well, maybe you don't know what it means to know Him

Im very close to God.
How close?
Jesus lives in me, and so does Father God.
And how close am i to them?
Im "ONE with God, in Christ".
I exist Spiritually inside God, Himself.
So yeah, i "know" Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There was no law between Adam and Mose, therefore no transgression, and yet all died because all sinned (Romans 5:12), even though they did not transgress the law

I don’t believe that is accurate. Notice the correspondence between God and Cain in Genesis 4

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice what God said to Cain here. It would appear that God has already explained what sin is to Cain. Cain killed Able knowing that it was a sin. Also notice how Cain does not appear to be the least bit surprised or shocked by The Lord speaking to him. To me this suggests that they have spoken many times before. Cain’s reaction to God speaking to him was not a reaction of surprise or excitement or puzzling to him. Cain knew who was speaking to him and he acts very nonchalant about it. Not very typical of a person speaking to God for the first time. I think this is evidence that God has already laid down His expectations for man long before the Torah.

 

[Sidon]

So people don’t even have to believe to be saved as long as they believed at one time in their life they are saved no matter what they do afterwards?

Salvation is not a work in progress that a person completes.
That's RELIGION. That's SELF Righteous.

The Righteousness that God accepts, is not what we provide, as we don't have any, BNR32Fan.
The righteousness that God accepts, HE PROVIDED.
See, only God can make you EQUAL to HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
We have to have HIS.
You can't do that for yourself.
GOD DID IT FOR YOU...>He did this for us, and offers the Blood of Christ as "the GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS"

So, if you have this Gift, its because you are BORN AGAIN.
If you don't, then you are : John 3:36

Salvation is all of God and none of you.

DISCIPLESHIP that follows Salvation, is all of you, with God's help.

God does not give you the NEW BIRTH because you promise to try to be good later.
He gives you the New BIRTH as : "the GIFT of Salvation", BECAUSE you have believed in Jesus, and your "faith is received and accepted and COUNTED, as Righteousness"< vs, you doing anything.

Ephesians 2:8,9 ... " For it is by grace you have BEEN saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God— 9 : "not by Works"

See that?
Salvation is a FREE GIFT, because its ONLY BASED on what JESUS did for you.
Christ said, "no person can come to the Father, but by ME">
So, we dont come to the FATHER by "presenting our bodies as a living Sacrifice".
Cain tried to come to God with crops and work, and God told Cain to "GET OUT".
Abel came with "another's blood" and God said.>"come on in, welcome, son".
See that?
We come to God by God's BLOOD, which is Jesus on the Cross, shedding it for us... John 3:16
WE come to GOD and are received and given the new birth because JESUS has already presented HIS BODY and BLOOD To God, 2000 yrs ago.
John 14:6

 

[Sidon]

Matthew.7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Matthew.21:19 And when He saw a fig tree in the way, He came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Then its true.
Jesus said. "you must be born again", as if you are not you will "die in your sins".
And those verses, are true.
If we don't obey them, then we end up here : John 3:36

 

[Servus]

Yeah I just needed him to admit it so that others who may read this discussion can see it for themselves in order to better understand his official position. So this contradicts where Jesus said that many will fall away but the one who endures to the end will be saved as well as Paul in Colossians 1:22-23.

Does Catholicism teach that there will be two separate judgements? The Great White Throne Judgement for the lost and the The Judgment Seat of Christ for the saved? If so then I'd say Colossians 1:22-23 would be referring to the latter judgement according to OSAS.

It seems to get overlooked a lot that we are told that the saved will punished here on Earth and that we will face judgment in Heaven. That we will have to stand before Christ, look Him in the eye, and give an accounting of our life.

 

[Sidon]

Born Again specifically to See The Kingdom of God
If you keep Jesus' commandments then the Holy Spirit abides with you

You are teaching a hybrid salvation.
You are teaching that we are saved or kept saved by keeping the law/commandments.
So, that's not true.

See, we are "justified by Faith"., not by keeping commandments or doing good works or enduring to the end, or by presenting our bodies a living sacrifice.

Think of it like this.. Ligurian
If a commandment or the LAW, died on the Cross for you, and shed its blood for yu, then they can save you.
Did they do that for you?
No.

So, don't try to come to God by being good, or by keeping commandments or The Law.
He wont accept you. In fact you offend God by trying to save yourself with commandment keeping legalism.
He will only accept you if you are BLOOD BOUGHT. If you are REDEEMED BY the BLOOD of the LAMB.
If you are washed in Christ's Blood, then your are born again.
To be washed is to be a BELIEVER, who has done this...>"All who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".. "As many as Believe in Me, I give unto them ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall never perish".

John 3:16 : Final answer.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Salvation is not a work in progress that a person completes.
That's RELIGION. That's SELF Righteous.

The Righteousness that God accepts, is not what we provide, as we don't have any, BNR32Fan.
The righteousness that God accepts, HE PROVIDED.
See, only God can make you EQUAL to HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
We have to have HIS.
You can't do that for yourself.
GOD DID IT FOR YOU...>He did this for us, and offers the Blood of Christ as "the GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS"

So, if you have this Gift, its because you are BORN AGAIN.
If you don't, then you are : John 3:36

Salvation is all of God and none of you.

DISCIPLESHIP that follows Salvation, is all of you, with God's help.

God does not give you the NEW BIRTH because you promise to try to be good later.
He gives you the New BIRTH as : "the GIFT of Salvation", BECAUSE you have believed in Jesus, and your "faith is received and accepted and COUNTED, as Righteousness"< vs, you doing anything.

Ephesians 2:8,9 ... " For it is by grace you have BEEN saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God— 9 : "not by Works"

See that?
Salvation is a FREE GIFT, because its ONLY BASED on what JESUS did for you.
Christ said, "no person can come to the Father, but by ME">
So, we dont come to the FATHER by "presenting our bodies as a living Sacrifice".
Cain tried to come to God with crops and work, and God told Cain to "GET OUT".
Abel came with "another's blood" and God said.>"come on in, welcome, son".
See that?
We come to God by God's BLOOD, which is Jesus on the Cross, shedding it for us... John 3:16
WE come to GOD and are received and given the new birth because JESUS has already presented HIS BODY and BLOOD To God, 2000 yrs ago.
John 14:6

Well folks we’ve established that Sidon teaches that if a person who believes that Jesus paid for all his sins is killed in the act of killing Christians he’s still saved and now a person doesn’t even have to believe as long as he believed at some point in his life he is saved. WOW talk about widening that narrow path. I mean it doesn’t get much wider than this brothers & sisters. So I say to you all remember Paul’s words in Ephesians 5:6-7

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:6-7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬