How to lower abortion rates

[EnemyPartyII]

I believe the answer is simple...

Free, easily available effective contraception. My personal prefered method would be an implanon type contraceptive device administered to all 16 year old girls at the same time they recieve their tetanus booster.

Discuss...

 

[PinkTulip]

I believe the answer is simple...

Free, easily available effective contraception. My personal prefered method would be an implanon type contraceptive device administered to all 16 year old girls at the same time they recieve their tetanus booster.

Discuss...

Would this be mandatory?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Would this be mandatory?

No, just freely available, same as immunisations should be... and further, anyone who accepts to have such an implant must be free to decide to discontinue its use when ever she sees fit.

This is purely about making the safest, most effective mean of contraception generally available... therefore, the assumption can be that anyone who gets pregnant after declining its use, WANTS to get pregnant.

The entire focus of my argument is in attempting to remove the incidence of "accidental" pregnancy. I am not for a moment advocating limits of family numbers, sterilisation, enforced fertility, or any other form of social engineering, my interest is only in making accidental pregnancy as uncommon as polio or tetanus. The technology exists, why not use it?

 

[ScottBot]

I believe the answer is simple...

Free, easily available effective contraception. My personal prefered method would be an implanon type contraceptive device administered to all 16 year old girls at the same time they recieve their tetanus booster.

Discuss...

Sure, let force all girls to contracept. Good idea? Anything else you would have the government impose on our children? Maybe we should just take them away from their parents at, say, age 8 and put them into government indoctrination centers.

Moral education is the best answer to immorality, and that starts in the home.

 

[ScottBot]

No, just freely available, same as immunisations should be... and further, anyone who accepts to have such an implant must be free to decide to discontinue its use when ever she sees fit.

This is purely about making the safest, most effective mean of contraception generally available... therefore, the assumption can be that anyone who gets pregnant after declining its use, WANTS to get pregnant.

The entire focus of my argument is in attempting to remove the incidence of "accidental" pregnancy. I am not for a moment advocating limits of family numbers, sterilisation, enforced fertility, or any other form of social engineering, my interest is only in making accidental pregnancy as uncommon as polio or tetanus. The technology exists, why not use it?

So, you advocate for giving minors consentual rights? Doesn't it send a mixed message that the age of consent (in most places) is 18, yet we are giving them contraception at 16? Its like giving a kid a driver's licence at 16 and then telling them that they are not allowed to drive a car until they are 18. Either drop the age of consent uniformly, or give them sexual license at 18, like it is now. Or, novel idea, teach kids that sex is a precious thing and stop trivializing it.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Sure, let force all girls to contracept. Good idea? Anything else you would have the government impose on our children? Maybe we should just take them away from their parents at, say, age 8 and put them into government indoctrination centers.

Before you slide too far down that indignant slippery slope... I said that they should be made available, I never said anything about forcing anyone to do anything against their will.

Just like immunisations...

everyone should have a tetanus shot available,. Everyone should be free to decline the offer.

Later, if you get tetanus, don't be surprised if people are less than sympathetic.

Same principal here... all I'm advocating is removing the likelihood of unwanted or accidental pregnancy. Thats all. Nothing about forcing people to do anything they don't want to. Just trying to head the whole abortion problem off at the source.

Again...

Abortion is largely caused by unwanted pregnancies, agree/disagree?

Therefore, if we can reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, it follows that abortion rates will be reduced too, agree/disagree?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

So, you advocate for giving minors consentual rights?

Um... I don't know about your jurisdiction, but here, the age of consent is 16...

Further, this isn't about whether people SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be having sex... its accepting that whatever our personal feelings on the matter people WILL have sex... so, since the technology exists to ensure that the outcome of sex won't be an unwanted pregnancy termination, why not use it?

Doesn't it send a mixed message that the age of consent (in most places) is 18, yet we are giving them contraception at 16?

See above. Its not about what people SHOULD do, its about what people WILL do...

Or, novel idea, teach kids that sex is a precious thing and stop trivializing it.

You can still do that and give them a fire and forget contraceptive implant. No one is going to force those who don't want to have sex, to have sex. Hiowever, for those who DO want to have sex, it means they can do it safely and without seeking an abortion later for an unwanted pregnancy.

If you want to teach your kids that sex is precious and they should wait, great, do it, more power to you, best of luck and all that... however, what is right for YOU is not right for EVERYONE... and the whole "no contraception, no abortion, scare their pants on tight" approach seems to be built entirely on the "what I consider right and moral is right and moral for EVERYONE, consenting adult in the privacy of their own bedroom or not!"

 

[PinkTulip]

No, just freely available, same as immunisations should be... and further, anyone who accepts to have such an implant must be free to decide to discontinue its use when ever she sees fit.

This is purely about making the safest, most effective mean of contraception generally available... therefore, the assumption can be that anyone who gets pregnant after declining its use, WANTS to get pregnant.

The entire focus of my argument is in attempting to remove the incidence of "accidental" pregnancy. I am not for a moment advocating limits of family numbers, sterilisation, enforced fertility, or any other form of social engineering, my interest is only in making accidental pregnancy as uncommon as polio or tetanus. The technology exists, why not use it?

Don't we already do this? In Alberta, there are some free birth control options, but it still doesn't work. Even if they are provided free, not everyone will use them. Condoms are free at Planned Parenthood and people still don't use them.

Implantation devices...Remember Norplant?

And don't forget HIV, HPV, Syphilis (which is on the rise here), gonorrhea, Genital Warts, Syphilis, Pubic lice, etc. You have to use a condom to protect yourself against these infections or abstain.

 

[ScottBot]

Before you slide too far down that indignant slippery slope... I said that they should be made available, I never said anything about forcing anyone to do anything against their will.

Just like immunisations...

everyone should have a tetanus shot available,. Everyone should be free to decline the offer.

Later, if you get tetanus, don't be surprised if people are less than sympathetic.

Same principal here... all I'm advocating is removing the likelihood of unwanted or accidental pregnancy. Thats all. Nothing about forcing people to do anything they don't want to. Just trying to head the whole abortion problem off at the source.

Again...

Abortion is largely caused by unwanted pregnancies, agree/disagree?

Therefore, if we can reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, it follows that abortion rates will be reduced too, agree/disagree?

Immunizations are required. Public schools and most private schools will not admit a child who is not up to date on immunizations.

"The Mississippi supreme court has held that religious exemptions to compulsory vaccination violate equal protection of the laws under the Fourteenth Amendment inasmuch as the exemptions "require the great body of school children to be vaccinated and at the same time expose them to the hazard of associating in school with children exempted . . . who had not been immunized as required by the statute."15 Mississippi is one of two states that do not permit non-medical exemptions"

While I agree with your premise that lessening the pregnancy rate will reduce the abortion rate, I cannot concur with the premise that artifical contraception is the way to go.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Immunizations are required. Public schools and most private schools will not admit a child who is not up to date on immunizations.

Ah. Well, not the case here. I would never EVER suggest that anyone should be forced to undergo a medical procedure to which he/she did not freely consent.

While I agree with your premise that lessening the pregnancy rate will reduce the abortion rate, I cannot concur with the premise that artifical contraception is the way to go.

So... given that people ARE going to have sex, no matter your personal views about whether they SHOULD or not... how would you propose lowering the unwanted pregnancy rate?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Even if they are provided free, not everyone will use them. Condoms are free at Planned Parenthood and people still don't use them.

Thats why I like implanon... it works even if you forget to take a pill that morning, or don't happen to have a condom on you at the moment when passion strikes...

And don't forget HIV, HPV, Syphilis (which is on the rise here), gonorrhea, Genital Warts, Syphilis, Pubic lice, etc. You have to use a condom to protect yourself against these infections or abstain.

of course this is true... and hey, sometimes a condom won't protect you from them, either... however, the OP is about lowering abortion rates, not STD rates, which is a whole other kettle of fish

 

[ScottBot]

You may not suggest it, but if you weren't aware, immunizations were once considered voluntary. The government then decided that it was in everyone's best interest to get immunized, and thus made them compulsory. That is why I have a real issue with even linking it to immunizations.. And the justification that "people will have sex regardless of whether or not they should" can very easily be brought as fodder to make contraception compulsory.

They say that statistically 1 in 3 women is raped in the course of her life, so how many abortions would be avoided if we just made contraception mandatory from the first menses until marriage or age of consent?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You may not suggest it, but if you weren't aware, immunizations were once considered voluntary. The government then decided that it was in everyone's best interest to get immunized, and thus made them compulsory. That is why I have a real issue with even linking it to immunizations.. And the justification that "people will have sex regardless of whether or not they should" can very easily be brought as fodder to make contraception compulsory.

I've just lost a huge amount of respect for america, that they would ever make any medical procedure mandatory. Australia has not gone that way yet.

They say that statistically 1 in 3 women is raped in the course of her life, so how many abortions would be avoided if we just made contraception mandatory from the first menses until marriage or age of consent?

I think you will find the stat is actually, 1 in 3 women will be a victim of sexual assault... and happily, fully blown penetrative rape with [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], while extremely traumatic, is relatively rare in females below the age of consent, cop dramas aside.

But specifically to your point... if you consider abortion to be completely unnacceptible, even in cases of rape, then universal contraception as the norm, (with appropriate exceptions for conscientious objectors and those wanting to get pregnant, can we tae this as read from now on?) is the only way to ensure post rape abortions are unnecesary... I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make here?

 

[ScottBot]

I've just lost a huge amount of respect for america, that they would ever make any medical procedure mandatory. Australia has not gone that way yet.I think you will find the stat is actually, 1 in 3 women will be a victim of sexual assault... and happily, fully blown penetrative rape with [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], while extremely traumatic, is relatively rare in females below the age of consent, cop dramas aside.

But specifically to your point... if you consider abortion to be completely unnacceptible, even in cases of rape, then universal contraception as the norm, (with appropriate exceptions for conscientious objectors and those wanting to get pregnant, can we tae this as read from now on?) is the only way to ensure post rape abortions are unnecesary... I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make here?

In regards to point #1, it is what it is. It is what it is because most people are cows and do whatever the government tells them to do, forgetting that the government should fear its people, not vice versa.

Regarding #2, yes, I consider abortion completely unacceptable, because I consider a person to be human worthy of protection from the moment of conception, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Regarding #2, yes, I consider abortion completely unacceptable, because I consider a person to be human worthy of protection from the moment of conception, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it.

OK, and I have no problem with this POV... so... lets come up with a soultion to make abortions extremely unlikely... and the way to do this is make the situation where they occur extremely unusual.

Now, we know that most abortions are requested for unwanted prgnancies. So, we are lead to the conclusion... how do we make abortions unnecesary? Make unwanted pregnancies extremely unlikely.

So... how would you propose we do this?

NOTE! Your response will be required to work for actual real life humans, and not depend on some mythical population who behave as they "should" do, and further, your response must be acceptible to the majority of people, and not just the group that agrees line for line with your personal position relating to sexual ethics... because I assume you want to lower the abortion rates amongst Hindus, Zoroastrians, atheists, animists and Budhists as well as amongst Christians, so an emotional apeal to "good old fashioned Christian morals" is not appropruate.

(don't even get me started on the observation that said morals are neither old fashioned or good, and are largely a construction of Victorian puritanism, but hey, another topic for another time)

 

[ScottBot]

OK, and I have no problem with this POV... so... lets come up with a soultion to make abortions extremely unlikely... and the way to do this is make the situation where they occur extremely unusual.

Now, we know that most abortions are requested for unwanted prgnancies. So, we are lead to the conclusion... how do we make abortions unnecesary? Make unwanted pregnancies extremely unlikely.

So... how would you propose we do this?

NOTE! Your response will be required to work for actual real life humans, and not depend on some mythical population who behave as they "should" do, and further, your response must be acceptible to the majority of people, and not just the group that agrees line for line with your personal position relating to sexual ethics... because I assume you want to lower the abortion rates amongst Hindus, Zoroastrians, atheists, animists and Budhists as well as amongst Christians, so an emotional apeal to "good old fashioned Christian morals" is not appropruate.

(don't even get me started on the observation that said morals are neither old fashioned or good, and are largely a construction of Victorian puritanism, but hey, another topic for another time)

Keep reproductively viable people on opposite ends of the planet until it is time to contracept.

Since that will never work. Education, not indoctrination, but real education where kids are told the truth about life, sex, contraception, and abortion. And please don't insult me by implying that is what Planned Parenthood does. I am a tad smarter than that.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Since that will never work. Education, not indoctrination, but real education where kids are told the truth about life, sex, contraception, and abortion. And please don't insult me by implying that is what Planned Parenthood does. I am a tad smarter than that.

Full disclosure sex education IS i9mportant, I agree... however, while SOME people will chose abstinence as a method of contraception, there are other people who will choose to have sex. Its these people we should be discussing (p.s I don't know what planned parenthood says... what do they say that you don't think is true about life, sex and contraception?)

 

[ScottBot]

Full disclosure sex education IS i9mportant, I agree... however, while SOME people will chose abstinence as a method of contraception, there are other people who will choose to have sex. Its these people we should be discussing (p.s I don't know what planned parenthood says... what do they say that you don't think is true about life, sex and contraception?)

Planned Parenthood is egregiously guilty of multiple ethical violations here in the US, so my position is that their position as an unbiased arbitor and dissiminator of sexual education is compromised.

Well, we agree about he full disclosure in sex education bit. That's a start.

 

[momofone]

The only real issue that I would have with this is the safety of contraception and the long-term affects. After I had my son, I got the depo shot. I only continued it for about a year, but gained a LOT of weight, stopped having regular periods (I now have about two a year), and am now infertile because of the treatments.

There are effective methods of birth control, and I do agree that they should be readily and freely available, but safety needs to be considered as well. I don't care what anyone says, there are going to be some kids that are going to have sex no matter what we try to teach them. It's just going to happen.

Blessings and love,
Shell

 

[fuzzymel]

Along with free and readily available contraception there should be very good sex education.

Without everyone knowing the benefits and reasons for taking different contraceptives its pretty pointless. I mean loads of women still do not realise that antibiotics stop the pill working properly.