How to lower abortion rates

Status
Not open for further replies.

die2live

Veteran
Jan 6, 2005
1,892
152
✟10,798.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This is an interesting idea, and certainly preferrable to the number of abortions we have going on. But I can't help but think it fails to address the real issue: premarital sex.

Maybe this would be a good government effort, but the church should be focusing on the disease, not the symptoms.
 
Upvote 0

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
38
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is an interesting idea, and certainly preferrable to the number of abortions we have going on. But I can't help but think it fails to address the real issue: premarital sex.

Maybe this would be a good government effort, but the church should be focusing on the disease, not the symptoms.
No. Premarital sex is NOT the issue, that is something entirely different.

If you want to stop ALL pre-marital sex, well, there I don't know how to help you. However, things to consider...

Pre-marital sex is not considered a bad thing by many Christians, and even more non-Christians

AND

Married couples have abortions to terminate unwanted pregnancies as well.

So, your position that pre-marital sex is the "real" issue, seems to A. imply that you want to enforce your personal morality onto EVERYONE, and B. fails to take into account that abortion is not only a phenomena of unmarried loose women.

What I'm talking about here, my entire proposal, is to try to reduce the number of abortions. I have absolutely no desire to try to control what consenting adults do in the provacy of their own bedrooms.
 
Upvote 0

The Princess Bride

Legend
Supporter
May 2, 2005
19,856
901
Georgia
✟69,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I'd say the focus truly needs to be on promoting abstinence for these unwed teens. End of story.

Giving them contraceptives isnt going to make their moral behavior any better, nor is it promoting Christian values.
Sure, let force all girls to contracept. Good idea? Anything else you would have the government impose on our children? Maybe we should just take them away from their parents at, say, age 8 and put them into government indoctrination centers. :doh:

Moral education is the best answer to immorality, and that starts in the home.
:amen:
 
Upvote 0

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
38
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
I'd say the focus truly needs to be on promoting abstinence for these unwed teens. End of story.
Except this is proven not to work, and you fail to address the fact that abortions occur within marriages AS WELL, OR the fact that MOST abortions are actually carried out on women in their 20s. The cliche of the unmarried teenager running off to the abortion clinic because of her loose behaviour is a myth... or at best, a gross missrepresentation of the truth.
Giving them contraceptives isnt going to make their moral behavior any better, nor is it promoting Christian values.
Are you only interested in reducing abortion rates amongst Christians? (for that matter, Christians who agree with you regarding pre-marital sex?) Because it seems to me that trying to imbue people with Christian values as the route to stopping abortions is only going to work on, well... Christians...

So, honesty time, what concerns you more? Abortions, or consenting adults having sex outside of marriage? Which one is it that you REALLY want to stop?
 
Upvote 0

The Princess Bride

Legend
Supporter
May 2, 2005
19,856
901
Georgia
✟69,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Except this is proven not to work, and you fail to address the fact that abortions occur within marriages AS WELL, OR the fact that MOST abortions are actually carried out on women in their 20s. The cliche of the unmarried teenager running off to the abortion clinic because of her loose behaviour is a myth... or at best, a gross missrepresentation of the truth.Are you only interested in reducing abortion rates amongst Christians? (for that matter, Christians who agree with you regarding pre-marital sex?) Because it seems to me that trying to imbue people with Christian values as the route to stopping abortions is only going to work on, well... Christians...
Do you honestly think providing them with contraceptives will be any better?



So, honesty time, what concerns you more? Abortions, or consenting adults having sex outside of marriage? Which one is it that you REALLY want to stop?
:Legally, both are allowed, Ethically, only one is wrong, Religiously,both are wrong. You cant pick and chose your right and wrongs based upon ethics alone.
 
Upvote 0

momofone

Active Member
Apr 9, 2007
130
18
Flint, MI
✟7,852.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
:Legally, both are allowed, Ethically, only one is wrong, Religiously,both are wrong. You cant pick and chose your right and wrongs based upon ethics alone.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Legally the issue is tricky at best. Even in the U.S. there are laws on the books that make pre-marital sex illegal. The Virginia law against fornication was struck down as recently as 2005 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Ziherl ) Fornication is defined as consentual sex between unmarried adults. Abortion is being challenged in the law on a more and more regular basis.

To what religion are you referring when you are saying that both are wrong? There are religions in which pre-marital sex is perfectly acceptable. Same for abortion.

And let's look at the ethics of it. Which are you saying is wrong? Abortion or pre-marital sex? Which ethical system are you looking at? Is your ethical system deontological or consequentalist? If it's deontological, which system? Christian? That's religious. How about logical? Perhaps you're consequentalist? Again, which system? Purely utilitarian? What consequences are you looking at? The consequences to the mother? Her family? The child? Society in general?

Arguments could be made from deontological and consequentalist points of view that both pre-marital sex, and abortion are not only ethically allowable, but ethically preferrable in certain cases. Arguments can also be made against both.

You're sweeping statement about legality, ethics, and religious morality just don't work here.
 
Upvote 0

The Princess Bride

Legend
Supporter
May 2, 2005
19,856
901
Georgia
✟69,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Legally the issue is tricky at best. Even in the U.S. there are laws on the books that make pre-marital sex illegal. The Virginia law against fornication was struck down as recently as 2005 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Ziherl ) Fornication is defined as consentual sex between unmarried adults. Abortion is being challenged in the law on a more and more regular basis.

To what religion are you referring when you are saying that both are wrong? There are religions in which pre-marital sex is perfectly acceptable. Same for abortion.

And let's look at the ethics of it. Which are you saying is wrong? Abortion or pre-marital sex? Which ethical system are you looking at? Is your ethical system deontological or consequentalist? If it's deontological, which system? Christian? That's religious. How about logical? Perhaps you're consequentalist? Again, which system? Purely utilitarian? What consequences are you looking at? The consequences to the mother? Her family? The child? Society in general?

Arguments could be made from deontological and consequentalist points of view that both pre-marital sex, and abortion are not only ethically allowable, but ethically preferrable in certain cases. Arguments can also be made against both.

You're sweeping statement about legality, ethics, and religious morality just don't work here.
Re-read what you just posted.

If somone is posting here in the Christian Only Debate area, hopefully the standard they hold is set to what God's word says.

Let me define it for you:

Legally, both are allowed,
Abortion is legal
Consensual sex is legal.

Define why you see that as wrong.

Ethically, only one is wrong
More people would see abortion as the wrong of the two, because it is the taking of a life, while consensual sex is just that, both parties agreement.

Again, how is that wrong?

Religiously,both are wrong.
Hopefully this one doesnt need too much pointing out.


Arguing with God's word doesnt work too well...
 
Upvote 0

momofone

Active Member
Apr 9, 2007
130
18
Flint, MI
✟7,852.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Re-read what you just posted.

If somone is posting here in the Christian Only Debate area, hopefully the standard they hold is set to what God's word says.

Let me define it for you:


Abortion is legal
Consensual sex is legal.

Define why you see that as wrong.


More people would see abortion as the wrong of the two, because it is the taking of a life, while consensual sex is just that, both parties agreement.

Again, how is that wrong?


Hopefully this one doesnt need too much pointing out.


Arguing with God's word doesnt work too well...

Consensual sex is not always legal, not even in the United States. North Carolina still has a law against unmarried adults living together:
If any man and woman not being married to each other, shall lewdly and lasciviously associate, bed, and cohabit together, they shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

In Idaho it's a $300 fine and up to six months in jail for fornication.

So no, consentual sex is not always legal.

Abortion is legal, yes, but is being challenged, as I think some instances and uses of abortion should be. I agree that there are far too many abortions, it is far to convenient, and it's easy access and legality helps to encourage irresponsibility. I don't think it should be completely illegalized, but it is far too widespread and something must be done.

Yes, many people would agree that abortion is wrong, while consentual sex is not. But that doesn't mean that EVERYONE sees it that way. I know of a person who believes that sex before marriage is wrong, even when it's consentual, from a purely consequentalist perspective. They argue that the emotional difficulties that occur from premarital sex are not worth the momentary euphoria experienced during the sexual act itself. The risk of disease is too great, and so the consequences outweigh the benefits. This same person has argued FOR abortion, again from a consequentalist perspective, that the trauma inflicted on a mother from and unwanted pregnancy, and that the trauma inflicted on a child by being unwanted, far outweight the consequences of having the abortion.

I wasn't arguing with your belief that they are wrong, I was arguing with your generalizations. There is nothing straightforward when it comes to arguing ethics. I'm a philosophy major, I've studied ethics and morality, and it's a very, very tricky subject.

When you make a generalization saying that such and such is wrong, you're ignoring the fact that not everyone agrees with you, and that sound, logical arguments can, and have been, presented that what you think is wrong is actually right.

Blessings and love,
Shell
 
Upvote 0

die2live

Veteran
Jan 6, 2005
1,892
152
✟10,798.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No. Premarital sex is NOT the issue, that is something entirely different.

If you want to stop ALL pre-marital sex, well, there I don't know how to help you. However, things to consider...

Pre-marital sex is not considered a bad thing by many Christians, and even more non-Christians

AND

Married couples have abortions to terminate unwanted pregnancies as well.

So, your position that pre-marital sex is the "real" issue, seems to A. imply that you want to enforce your personal morality onto EVERYONE, and B. fails to take into account that abortion is not only a phenomena of unmarried loose women.

What I'm talking about here, my entire proposal, is to try to reduce the number of abortions. I have absolutely no desire to try to control what consenting adults do in the provacy of their own bedrooms.

I see your point.

You're absolutely right about the fact that some married couples do in fact have abortions. In fact, about nineteen percent of abortions are done by married women. That is a fact that I forgot to take into account.

What I should have said was the main issue that the church should be focusing on was premarital sex. Certainly there are others as well, such as in cases of married people's abortions and rape. Plus there is the fact, which I will address in a moment, that your post was not about what the church should do so much as what the government should do.

Like I said in my post, perhaps your proposition would be a good move for the government to make. And that was probably your point, so maybe I shouldn't have even brought up what the church should be doing, as that is not the topic of this thread. I apologize for that. I did not read into the OP closely enough.

Since I already started a thought, however, I will go ahead and finish it, but feel free to disregard my following statement since it has little to do with this discussion. I believe that the role of the church and the role of the government are two different things. The government has no reason to care about what consenting adults do, but the church does. As Christians, we should encourage the government to reduce the number of abortions with propositions such as the one you mentioned. And, as Christians, we should also take part in the church's mission to encourage adherence to the Bible and God's loving laws. This is not forcing anyone's personal opinions or morals on anyone else. It is simply explaining the truth of the Bible and encouraging obediance to God.

Once again, I am sorry for getting off topic. I'll be sure to read posts more carefully so that I know what exactly we are talking about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EnemyPartyII
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mark2010

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2005
4,559
304
57
✟6,262.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Single
If pro life advocates truly want to lower the number of abortions, they should invest in providing expectant mothers with other reasonable alternatives. Many abortions are performed on very young mothers with little or no financial resources who cannot see any way that they can raise a child.

Our governments should do more to make adoptions feasible for those mothers and for persons wishing to adopt. If would-be mothers were given such an option, and if the option were affordable, I suspect that more would choose that path.

I say this as a person who was adopted as an infant and given the chance at life.
 
Upvote 0

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
38
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
If pro life advocates truly want to lower the number of abortions, they should invest in providing expectant mothers with other reasonable alternatives. Many abortions are performed on very young mothers with little or no financial resources who cannot see any way that they can raise a child.
Quite so. I would dearly love to see militant pro-lifers who spend their free time hurling abuse at people at fertility clinics, actually doing something to increase the chances of a successful adoption, and volunteering to support women with difficult pregnancies...

Their failure to do so, apears to me at least, to suggest that they aren't really as into saving lives as they claim, and far more interested in the bullying/condemning aspect
 
Upvote 0

die2live

Veteran
Jan 6, 2005
1,892
152
✟10,798.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If pro life advocates truly want to lower the number of abortions, they should invest in providing expectant mothers with other reasonable alternatives. Many abortions are performed on very young mothers with little or no financial resources who cannot see any way that they can raise a child.

Our governments should do more to make adoptions feasible for those mothers and for persons wishing to adopt. If would-be mothers were given such an option, and if the option were affordable, I suspect that more would choose that path.

I say this as a person who was adopted as an infant and given the chance at life.

But they are doing making other options more feasible. Sure there are some who just like to stand outside abortion clinics and scream. But there are also those who start maternity homes and work in adoption centers. Adoption is almost always free for the biological mother, and there is never a shortage of potential parents for American babies. I'm not sure about other states, but MD has a free insurance program that is available to women who need it for this purpose. I volunteer in a crisis pregnancy clinic, and we offer preg tests, viability sonos, classes on a variety of relationship and parenting topics, all free of charge.

All these are good things that a lot of young parents are taking advantage of. The ones who decide to abort either haven't looked into these things or have and decided abortion would be easier.

BTW, I'm glad to hear of your adoption success. I think adoption is a wonderful thing and I hope to adopt one day as well.
 
Upvote 0

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
38
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
How about no contraceptives, no abortions and limited welfare for new single mothers? The first couple of years would be rough, but people might actually start taking responsibility for their actions.
So, essentially you want to make pregnancy and children a punishment for women who have sex outside of marriage?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

die2live

Veteran
Jan 6, 2005
1,892
152
✟10,798.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So, essentially you want to make pregnancy and children a punishment for women who have sex outside of marriage?

No, I think he just meant it as a consequence to their actions rather than a punishment. I agree that there should be no abortions, but I don't know how I feel about no contraceptives, but I definitely think that welfare for singel mothers is a huge blessing. Mistakes and sin occur, and there are consequences, but that doesn't make it wrong to lighten the load a bit. That's what I believe anyway.
 
Upvote 0

Lisa0315

Respect Catholics and the Mother Church!
Jul 17, 2005
21,367
1,650
56
At The Feet of Jesus
✟37,577.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In the real world, this may not be a bad idea. However, there is something very scary about forcing anyone to do this. First, there is the religious element. Some do not believe in contraception at all. Second, there is the political element. The World Bank is currently forcing third world countries to administer birth control and abortions in order to receive funds. This is a huge mistake and an overstepping of their authority. They are essentially bribing poor countries to reduce their birth rate before giving them money.

Lisa
 
Upvote 0

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
38
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
However, there is something very scary about forcing anyone to do this. First
If you go back through the thread, you will see that I have repeatedly said that this is about OFFERING a fire and forget type, take it once and worry no more contraceptive. No one should EVER be forced to have it, and further, anyone who does have it must be allowed to have it removed at any time.

I'm certainly not for a moment suggesting anything mandatory, or anything against the will of the individual...

That sort of thing is social engineering and a totally different kettle of fish.

My sole interest here is in lowering the number of unwanted pregnancies, and thereby, the number of abortions. Nothing more than that, and I believe that implanon OFFERED to all 16 year old girls is the best way to go about this.

Certainly anyone is free to refuse this medication... of course, if she does, and later ends up with an unwatned pregnancy, it will be rather more difficult to claim it was an accident or somehow not her "fault"
 
Upvote 0

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
38
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
The World Bank is currently forcing third world countries to administer birth control and abortions in order to receive funds. This is a huge mistake and an overstepping of their authority. They are essentially bribing poor countries to reduce their birth rate before giving them money.
Whats wrong with getting developing countries to administer birth control? Over population is half the problem in many places... surely reducing the number of people to starve during the next famine isn't a bad thing?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Lisa0315

Respect Catholics and the Mother Church!
Jul 17, 2005
21,367
1,650
56
At The Feet of Jesus
✟37,577.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Whats wrong with getting developing countries to administer birth control? Over population is half the problem in many places... surely reducing the number of people to starve during the next famine isn't a bad thing?

Because many of them are Catholic...

Lisa
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.