How to kill Palestinians

[gwynedd1]

Oh, I've studied the history of it real well. I don't give Israel anything like a free pass, yet I can look at the history of the entire conflict and see that, while Israel is a fairly deep shade of gray, the PLO is fullfledged midnight black.

Israel has never, as far as I recall, sent suicide bombers into Palestine, demanded that the entire Palestinian nation be utterly wiped out, or thrown grenades into school buildings. If you have proof otherwise, please share.

As for the rest of you, I'd suggest you just stop arguing with TLF. This is not a flame, just a general observation: The last time I argued with her, she denied that most of the reported deaths from the Inquisition happened, and actually tried to justify some of it via claiming that heretics/Jews had falsely converted to gain power in the Church.

Don't flame her, don't argue with her, just pray for her.

Hello Rion,

I wonder if you had stumbled upon what Moshe Dayan had said about the 6 day war?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...Reference/Times Topics/Subjects/A/Agriculture

General Dayan died in 1981. But in conversations with a young reporter five years earlier, he said he regretted not having stuck to his initial opposition to storming the Golan Heights. There really was no pressing reason to do so, he said, because many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland.

Israel has the trimmings of civilized society just like we do. However do not let the capabilities be the judge. I already posted a link about cluster bombs but Israel does not need rocket propelled grenades, they have F16s.

 

[gwynedd1]

Hatred towards 'zionism' is no different than despising Nazism. What about your own hatred towards anyone that does not hold to your way of thinking? It is ludicrous to think one person/people is more deserving of justice and fair treatment than another. It is ludicrous to think that there has never been an indigenous people in 'GODS' Holy Land, in all honestly the Palestinian people could care less what the land is called, and they would gladly recognized Israel's right to exsist if their own rights were recognized. The Palestinians (Christian and Muslim, Palestinian/Arab Jews are 2nd class citizens) just want to be treated with respect the same as every other human being, deserving no more or no less, able to provide for their families, their children the same as you or I. If you think the injustice done to the Palestinians is justified, then you are WRONG! Educate they self. Your brothers and sisters in Christ are crying for peace. -Micah 6:8

Video – The Easiest Targets: The Israeli Policy of Strip Searching Women and Children Just a small sample of the humiliation suffered daily.

This article from Israeli icon of the left ,Uri Avnery explains consisely why Zionist leaders had to push the concept of Islam vs the "Judeo-Christian tradition" to justify continued oppression of Palestinians. In the "The Mother of all Pretexts" Avnery says that "our leaders are exploiting this slogan as a pretext for sabotaging any possibility of an Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. It is just one more in a long line of pretexts." and he goes on to list some of those pretexes (http://zope. gush-shalom. org/home/ en/channels/ avnery/119228853 3/ )

A NEW ISRAELI STUDY CONFIRMS OUR WORST FEARS : On the academic research of Psychologist Nofer Ishai-Karen and Psychology Prof. Joel Elitzur, Dalia Karpel shortened translation of article in Haaretz `Hamedovevet` Translation by Israeli Occupation Magazine (this was in the Hebrew not English edition of Haaretz)
http://www.kibush. co.il/show_ file.asp? num=22525 (English partial translation)
http://www.haaretz. co.il/hasite/ spages/905287. htm (Hebrew in Haaretz)

Hello Micah,

I am going to bolster your argument.

It should certainly be pointed out what a Zionist actually is. A Zionist is basically one who believes it is God's Will for the decedents of Abraham to dwell in the promised land. The priority and means are many flavors. Even I could be classified as such but in my case earthly Jerusalem cannot be such a place. Zionist generally means on earth in terms of fulfillment. Take note, Jesus is rejected largely on this basis as to have not provided fulfillment on earth.

This is what makes the Zionist=Jew notion absolutely false. It is estimated 20 million Christian Zionists of some sort are in the US. This outnumbers by a large margin worldwide Jewry alone at 14 million, many of whom are not Zionists.

http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06b/cufi.html

Why oppose Zionism so as to hate it? It seems like every other book on the subject has a mushroom cloud on it .

http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-Countdown-John-Hagee/dp/1591858933

Now if you don't see a death cult in this then splash some cold water on your face and look again.

I have and continue to ask for New Testament scripture to support the fundamental notion of fulfillment on earth. I am still waiting...

So what is to love in Zionism?

1. It has probably resulted in the deaths of millions, many of whom are Jews.

2. It is fundamentally wrong and opposed to any Christian doctrine. OT scripture is to be interpreted through the lens of the New Testament scriptures not in their absence to be considered Christian doctrine which refutes bellicosity at every point and rejects the notion of earthly fulfillment.

3. Is currently main obstacle to world peace. It has the potential to be in the billions with war mongering false teachers along the lines of Mr Hagee.

So hatred of Zionism is certainly appropriate language.

 

[Micah68]

Hello Micah,

I am going to bolster your argument.

It should certainly be pointed out what a Zionist actually is. A Zionist is basically one who believes it is God's Will for the decedents of Abraham to dwell in the promised land. The priority and means are many flavors. Even I could be classified as such but in my case earthly Jerusalem cannot be such a place. Zionist generally means on earth in terms of fulfillment. Take note, Jesus is rejected largely on this basis as to have not provided fulfillment on earth.

This is what makes the Zionist=Jew notion absolutely false. It is estimated 20 million Christian Zionists of some sort are in the US. This outnumbers by a large margin worldwide Jewry alone at 14 million, many of whom are not Zionists.

http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06b/cufi.html

Why oppose Zionism so as to hate it? It seems like every other book on the subject has a mushroom cloud on it .

http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-Countdown-John-Hagee/dp/1591858933

Now if you don't see a death cult in this then splash some cold water on your face and look again.

I have and continue to ask for New Testament scripture to support the fundamental notion of fulfillment on earth. I am still waiting...

So what is to love in Zionism?

1. It has probably resulted in the deaths of millions, many of whom are Jews.

2. It is fundamentally wrong and opposed to any Christian doctrine. OT scripture is to be interpreted through the lens of the New Testament scriptures not in their absence to be considered Christian doctrine which refutes bellicosity at every point and rejects the notion of earthly fulfillment.

3. Is currently main obstacle to world peace. It has the potential to be in the billions with war mongering false teachers along the lines of Mr Hagee.

So hatred of Zionism is certainly appropriate language.

Much more eloquent than I could put. I think what saddens me the most is the CZ lack of understanding or knowledge of the New Covenant. There is much to be sad about, in particular how small and constrained people make God to be, basically confining him to supposed pre-written history. And to think that by an unconditional support of the creation of the State of Israel between the Nile and the Euphrates (no matter to cost to human life on either side, as long as it is fulfilling supposed text) will usher in armageddon and the subsequent return of Christ. It is cultish, from my eyes I see people worshipping a state, a government and not God. The thought that man assumes to know the mind of God and force his hand, such as Hagee through his CUFI, is blasphemous. God Is so much bigger than any man can even attempt to know. My Grandfather a faithful and devote Christian once said to me 'It is impossible for man to have a mustard seed of faith' I understand now what he meant.

 

[Rion]

Btw, sorry if I was unfair to you yesterday TFL. No real excuse for it.

Sorry, but it is not Israel that other nations have a problem with, it is with the zionist government and its policies they have a problem.

You know, I completely understand about the "Zionist" mentality you have a problem with, but I do think you're blinding yourself to the fact that a lot of these countries have problems with both Zionism AND Israelites. They literally believe that allah turned Jews into Apes, not just "Zionist Jews."

Once that government is no more and a true democracy takes its place, treating palestinians as equals with Jews, then the need for action against it is gone.

Any gov't that will brainwash little children like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8&mode=related&search

is never going to have "peace with Israel" until the Jews are utterly destroyed.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Let me guess the claim to the land ended with Jesus because that cannot be so as Jesus failed according to the mandate that was set of who the messiah will really be and if you fail just 1 you cannot be the messiah and he failed more then 1 so he cannot be the messiah.

Tanakh, the claim tot he land ended when the Jews rejected their God and Messiah, Jesus.

The Torah says this:

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.​

Destroyed is in the Hiphil Infinitive:

Lexicon Results for shamad (Strong's H8045) Hebrew for H8045 שמד Transliteration
shamad
Pronunciation
shä·mad' (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
a primitive root
TWOT Reference
2406

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated

a) (Niphal)

1) to be annihilated, be exterminated

2) to be destroyed, be devastated​

b) (Hiphil)

1) to annihilate, exterminate

2) to destroy​

​

​

​

The Infinitive tense emphasizing the verb in the Hiphil above . . the annihilation, extermination of the Jews from the land. Finally, fully, an end made. No return.

Jos 23:16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.​

"Perish" is in the Qal Perfect tense:

Lexicon Results for 'abad (Strong's H6) Hebrew for H6 אבד Transliteration
'abad
Pronunciation

ä·bad' (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
a primitive root
TWOT Reference
2
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed

a) (Qal)

1) perish, die, be exterminated

2) perish, vanish (fig.)

3) be lost, strayed​

b) (Piel)

1) to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up (as lost), exterminate

2) to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (fig.)

3) cause to stray, lose​

c) (Hiphil)

1) to destroy, put to death

a) of divine judgment​

2) object name of kings (fig.)​

The Perfect Tense means:

8816 Perfect

The Perfect expresses a completed action.​

This means the extermination of the Jews from the land is complete. Done. Finished.

And finally we see Joshua giving this dire waring to the Jews:

Jos 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. ​

And their God came to them, as a man, Jesus. And they denied Him, Jesus, their God come in the flesh.

And that ultimate denial and betrayal of God brough about their final destruction, annihilation, extermination from the land as promised above.

Their is nothing in the Torah that proves he is the messiah because he is not so the promise still stands and ALWAYS will. It is not my claim but the cliam of G-d so no it is not bogus.

Your continued denial of your God, the God-Man Jesus, proves what Jesus Himself, who rose from the dead, said:

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead
​

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Btw, sorry if I was unfair to you yesterday TFL. No real excuse for it.

Thanks Rion, I appreciate it. I am very vocal about my feelings regarding how political zionism has created such a incendary situation in the middle east. If I offended you at all, please accept my apologies.

You know, I completely understand about the "Zionist" mentality you have a problem with, but I do think you're blinding yourself to the fact that a lot of these countries have problems with both Zionism AND Israelites. They literally believe that allah turned Jews into Apes, not just "Zionist Jews."

And there are Talmudic Jews believe that God created one race, the Jewish race, and the rest of us are simply animals in human form created to serve them. I can site this if you wish.

What you have are some who follow fanatical forms of their respective religions and those fanatical forms do not define either Judaism or Islam. We have to keep that in mind and be reasonable in our approach to this.

As far as countries that have problems with both Zionists and Israelites, I don't think this is as big of a problem as you think. Yes, there are those who confuse the two together just as there are those here who do the same thing. But from what I have seen from the leaders of those countries, they understand the very real difference.

In fact, Ahmadinejab's famous "quote" about wiping Israel off the face of the earth doesn't even exist. It was a mistranslation by one of the groups in Iran, one of the more radical ones, probably on purpose. But what he really said is "the regime occupying Palestine will fade/vanish from the pages of time", and he was quoting someone else when he did so. He also compared it to the way the Soviet Union dissappeared. Peacefully. Russia wasn't wiped off the face of the map.

There is a lot of misinformation out there that is fueling the fire against muslims. We need to be able to step back and take a rational, unimpassioned look and examine the actual facts honestly.

That this misquote has continued to be touted as the real thing by Israel and the US as justification for wanting to go in and bomb/nuke Iran should tell us all something. Something isn't right with this picture.

Any gov't that will brainwash little children like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8&mode=related&search

is never going to have "peace with Israel" until the Jews are utterly destroyed.

Someone puts something on youtube and we should simply accept as real?

I can't hear what is said as my speakers don't work.

But Israel has been brainwashing its little chldren against the Palestinians with horrible things for quite some time .. .

Be careful of propaganda Rion. Our western news is rife with it.

.

 

[Rion]

No, it's a Youtube video of something I've watched elsewhere. It's not propaganda, it's from a show in the M.E.

 

[thereselittleflower]

No, it's a Youtube video of something I've watched elsewhere. It's not propaganda, it's from a show in the M.E.

I can't evaluate it one way or the other, I don't even know what they are saying.

But the issue isn't does one side, or some parts of one sde do such things.

The point is, Israel does too and has for a long time.


So the argument against this in favor of Israel holds no water.


That was the point I was trying to make.

.

 

[Tanakh]

Tanakh, the claim tot he land ended when the Jews rejected their God and Messiah, Jesus.



The Torah says this:

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.​

Destroyed is in the Hiphil Infinitive:

Lexicon Results for shamad (Strong's H8045) Hebrew for H8045 שמד Transliteration​

shamad​

Pronunciation​

shä·mad' (Key)​

Part of Speech​

verb​

Root Word (Etymology)​

a primitive root​

TWOT Reference​

2406​

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated​

a) (Niphal)​

1) to be annihilated, be exterminated​

2) to be destroyed, be devastated​

b) (Hiphil)


<B>

1) to annihilate, exterminate​

</B>

2) to destroy​

The Infinitive tense emphasizing the verb in the Hiphil above . . the annihilation, extermination of the Jews from the land. Finally, fully, an end made. No return.

Jos 23:16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.​

"Perish" is in the Qal Perfect tense:

Lexicon Results for 'abad (Strong's H6) Hebrew for H6 &#1488;&#1489;&#1491; Transliteration​

'abad​

Pronunciation​

ä·bad' (Key)​

Part of Speech​

verb​

Root Word (Etymology)​

a primitive root​

TWOT Reference​

2​

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed

a) (Qal)​

1) perish, die, be exterminated​

2) perish, vanish (fig.)​

3) be lost, strayed​

b) (Piel)

1) to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up (as lost), exterminate​

2) to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (fig.)​

3) cause to stray, lose​

c) (Hiphil)

1) to destroy, put to death​

a) of divine judgment​

2) object name of kings (fig.)

​

The Perfect Tense means:

8816 Perfect​

The Perfect expresses a completed action.​

This means the extermination of the Jews from the land is complete. Done. Finished.



And finally we see Joshua giving this dire waring to the Jews:

Jos 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. ​

And their God came to them, as a man, Jesus. And they denied Him, Jesus, their God come in the flesh.

And that ultimate denial and betrayal of God brough about their final destruction, annihilation, extermination from the land as promised above.






Your continued denial of your God, the God-Man Jesus, proves what Jesus Himself, who rose from the dead, said:

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.​

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead ​

.

Using the "new testament" to prove Jesus is the messiah will not change my mind or the mind of any true Jew as it does not say in the Torah that a man like Jesus will be the messiah. If you are going to quote the "new testament" to say we Jews no longer have a right to the land then you are proving that G-d is a liar as Jesus went against the Torah so therefore unless G-d changes His mind frequently then Christianity is false. I have stated before that the real messiah will be human, yes, but will not be G-d as G-d cannot be physical nor can He be conceived in any physical form; G-d cannot feel any pain and His unity is one with no partner or associate thus the trinity goes against what Judaism dictates the messiah will be as Jesus was none of these except that he was a man, although their is a very good probability that he never existed. And Jesus is not our G-d as he is not G-d and in this Christianity is NOT Monotheistic in any way. So if you are using Jesus to say the G-d's promise to us Jews in Israel is illogical because doing so is saying that G-d changed His mind on His promise and sense G-d commanded His creation not take false oaths then saying Jesus is G-d and that he made void that promise is saying that G-d went against is own law which is blasphemous

 

[Servant222]

Three recent comments here:

There is a lot of misinformation out there that is fueling the fire against muslims. We need to be able to step back and take a rational, unimpassioned look and examine the actual facts honestly.

Mohammad was all for women's rights. He went so far as to alienate members from his own tribe over this very issues. He was a revolutionary concerning the treatment of women, allowing them to own property and receive things from their deceased husbands...etc. None of the "treating women as second class citizens" is from Mohammad (because he was avidly against it, as I stated, he made them "first class", in his tribe), and all of the verses in the Quran that are used to support that theology are hotly debated within Muslim circles (much like those verses in the Bible "condoning" slavery were used in defense of the practice in our history). There's always debate going on about these things. It's not just black and white, much like Christianity.

(e) Adultery through polygamy, even involving young girls, is o.k.

Again, this is a debated topic, and looked down on by most of Islam. Going back to the roots, Mohammad was against this practice as well, as history shows.

So TLF and Candide, perhaps you could educate me, perhaps help me to understand Islam so that I stop getting these panic attacks everytime I read something more about the religion.

Any gov't that will brainwash little children like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8&mode=related&search

is never going to have "peace with Israel" until the Jews are utterly destroyed.

Now I don't want to think that I'm being brainwashed; I agree with you when you say:

Be careful of propaganda Rion. Our western news is rife with it.

So here are quotes related to the above, taken directly from the English translation of some of Islam's most revered books, including the Tarikh al-Tabari (History of the Prophets and Kings), written by Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari, who was one of the earliest, most prominent and famous Persian historians and exegetes of the Qur'an.

Tabari VII:7
"The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six." Ishaq:281 "When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three." Tabari VII:6 "In May, 623 A.D./A.H. 1, Allah's Messenger consummated his marriage to Aisha."

Tabari IX:128
"When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation."

Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

Bukhari:V9B86N98
"The Prophet said, 'A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent.' 'O Apostle! How will the virgin express her consent.' He said, 'By remaining silent.'"

Bukhari:V9B87N139-40
"Allah's Apostle told Aisha, 'You were shown to me twice in my dreams. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, "She is yours, so uncover her." And behold, it was you. I would then say to myself, "If this is from Allah, then it must happen."'"

----------------------------
No Muslim that I have spoken to denies that these statements are included in the teachings of Islam- but they claim they are not relevant today, just like they claim the suicide bombings and beheadings are no longer approved by the current Mullahs. So why does this abuse continue to happen, and how can it do anything but hurt the Palestinian cause?

When you study a religion, it is vital to understand the foundations of a religion; how it originated. Jesus certainly never condoned or partook in the abuse of children, or in suicide missions or beheadings.

The Palestinian situation is inexoribly linked to the teachings of the Islamic religion. We know already that it justifies the killings of infidels, especially Jews- but what about the abuse of children, as we see in the video, and as we read about in Islam's most revered reference books?

I sincerely ask you to enlighten me.

 

[Servant222]

The point, of course, I am trying to make is that the Palestinian situation would be quickly resolved if they stopped doing those things that time and time again are condemned in the Bible.

What the Palestinians desperately need to do is stop blaming the Israelites for their deplorable situation and embrace true democracy and free speech, so that they can see how they have been misled by some of their terrorist leaders, and give up those practices that are so clearly contrary to not only the Bible, but any universal standards of human conduct.

We all profess to be Christians- so how can we at least convince the Palestinians to embrace the teachings of the Bible?

Once they see the benefits of the changes that will surely come, Christian missionaries will find a lot of fertile ground.

Or is that just the point- satan doesn't like to lose any ground?

 

[gwynedd1]

Using the "new testament" to prove Jesus is the messiah will not change my mind or the mind of any true Jew as it does not say in the Torah that a man like Jesus will be the messiah.

Hello Tenakh,

Seems like we even agree on the name these days.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=128&view=item&idx=1347

Shortly before he died, one of Israel's most prominent rabbis wrote the name of the Messiah on a small note which he requested would remain sealed until now. When the note was opened, it revealed what many have known for centuries: Yehoshua, or Yeshua (Jesus), is the Messiah.

A few months before he died, one of the nation’s most prominent rabbis, Yitzhak Kaduri, supposedly wrote the name of the Messiah on a small note which he requested would remain sealed until now. When the note was unsealed, it revealed what many have known for centuries: Yehoshua, or Yeshua (Jesus), is the Messiah.

You also never really explained what happened at the end of 70 weeks in your view. What is it about in your point of view. I am rather interested actually.

 

[gwynedd1]

The point, of course, I am trying to make is that the Palestinian situation would be quickly resolved if they stopped doing those things that time and time again are condemned in the Bible.

What the Palestinians desperately need to do is stop blaming the Israelites for their deplorable situation and embrace true democracy and free speech, so that they can see how they have been misled by some of their terrorist leaders, and give up those practices that are so clearly contrary to not only the Bible, but any universal standards of human conduct.

We all profess to be Christians- so how can we at least convince the Palestinians to embrace the teachings of the Bible?

Once they see the benefits of the changes that will surely come, Christian missionaries will find a lot of fertile ground.

Or is that just the point- satan doesn't like to lose any ground?

Hello Servant222,

Have you considered that Israeli agents within Palestinians will not let that happen? Hamas was originally funded by Israel after all. I have no proof of a Levon affair style rouse but I suspect that one improves their efficiency over the years.
However ultimately you are correct. If I were Palestinian, I would suspect any violence done in its name as having roots as a useful pretext. The violence gives Israel cause, drives out media and feeds our expectation that has been cultivated for years.
Why would Israel want conflict you ask? You speak of democracy and free speech but none of that really matters in a drought. If Palestinians "fight back", or Lebanon for that matter, that is a solution to water. The Golan heights is a great "defensive" position from where Israel was "attacked". Lucky break to get the headwaters of the Jordan in the noble defense....
Anyone who knows about the California water wars in the Owen valley that gave rise to some great film noir called China Town can draw a little insight. That is but one element in all this. The actions of men differ but the temptations always remain.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The point, of course, I am trying to make is that the Palestinian situation would be quickly resolved if they stopped doing those things that time and time again are condemned in the Bible.

No it wouldn't!

That is the point I am making. All that would happen is that the world's eye would turn away from the Palestinians, and the Zionist Israeli government and military would continue their progrom of dispossession, ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from off the land with less hinderance from the world governments.

The Palestinians would gain nothing as long as the zionist agenda was not ditched also.

It is a TWO sided issue, with the Israeli government being the agressor, and the Palestinian terrorists being the responders.

You can't have the responders stop without also having the aggressor stop first, otherwise, what they were responding to will simply continue unabated, and even accelerated.

That is not a christian resolution to the situation.

That the Palestinians desperately need to do is stop blaming the Israelites for their deplorable situation and embrace true democracy and free speech, so that they can see how they have been misled by some of their terrorist leaders, and give up those practices that are so clearly contrary to not only the Bible, but any universal standards of human conduct.

Horsefeathers.

The isareli government is DIRECTLY responsible for the deplorable situation of the Palestinians.

This is what you are not getting.

We all profess to be Christians- so how can we at least convince the Palestinians to embrace the teachings of the Bible?

Now that's rich.

Let's, as Christians, dump all Palestinians into the terrorist boat, never mind that the majority of Palestinians are not terrorists, and many are CHRISTIAN ALREADY!

How is it justifiable as christians to ask the Palestinians to forego reacting to the attrocities committed against them by the Isaraeli government, and not first demand that the Israeli government forever stop its progrom against the Palestinians, their ethnic cleansing from the land?

Its NOT!

Once they see the benefits of the changes that will surely come, Christian missionaries will find a lot of fertile ground.

Or is that just the point- satan doesn't like to lose any ground?

Your arguments show only bias and prejudice against the Palestinian people, not even recongnizing that many are Christian already. . . . .

Let me tell you that Arab Christians are VERY aware of the attrocities committed against the Palestinians by the Israeli government and stand against it. Just because western Christians tend to be very naive and ignorant of such things, does not change the facts.

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Three recent comments here:

So TLF and Candide, perhaps you could educate me, perhaps help me to understand Islam so that I stop getting these panic attacks everytime I read something more about the religion.

I think that you hit the nail on the head above. You get panic attacks when you hear about Islam.

That right there should be a big clue that something is not right. God is not the author of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.

If you are having such reactions to Islam, then it is because someone has programmed fear into you. God doesn't do that.

Those who have programmed such fear into you are those who will benefit from having people be afraid of Islam. Most notably, those who stand to gain something by having Islam and muslims demonized.

I understand what you are feeling. Even up until last year I was listening to the propaganda which programs such reactions into us.

My life has been a journey of unlearning much of what I thought was true these last 7 years, and objectively investigating the facts. And so, I finally am developing a good understanding of what is going on in the middle east and why.

What you have done is proof text writings of Islam, applying a western 21st century moral code to a 6th century culture that is widely divergent from your own.

No Muslim that I have spoken to denies that these statements are included in the teachings of Islam- but they claim they are not relevant today, just like they claim the suicide bombings and beheadings are no longer approved by the current Mullahs. So why does this abuse continue to happen, and how can it do anything but hurt the Palestinian cause?

It continues because the IRON WALL policies, objectives and agendas of the Israeli government and military continue. You want these to stop, remove the cause, which is the Israeli government's Zionist objective of saving/redeeming the land, which requires the dispossession of the Palestinians from that land, the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.

When you study a religion, it is vital to understand the foundations of a religion; how it originated. Jesus certainly never condoned or partook in the abuse of children, or in suicide missions or beheadings.

The Palestinian situation is inexoribly linked to the teachings of the Islamic religion. We know already that it justifies the killings of infidels, especially Jews- but what about the abuse of children, as we see in the video, and as we read about in Islam's most revered reference books?

I sincerely ask you to enlighten me.

The Palestinian situation isn inexoribly linked to the abuses of the Palestinian peole perpetrated upon them by the Zionist Israeli governments's IRON WALL policies, objectives and agenda . . . .

We have been over this many times before.

You treat all Palestinians as if they were muslims invluenced predominately by such writings. That is far from the truth.

And you fail to acknowledge that many are Christian.

Again, your view of the situation is limited and revealing your biases.

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Using the "new testament" to prove Jesus is the messiah will not change my mind or the mind of any true Jew as it does not say in the Torah that a man like Jesus will be the messiah.

As Jesus said, if one will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not believe one who has raised from the dead.

Why would I expect you to believe? You do not believe Moses and the prophets which testified of Him.

This is the CHRISTIAN SECTION of this site. We use THE NEW TESTAMENT. According to OUR SCRIPTURES, you deny the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Jesus, the Messisah.

Thus, according to OUR SCRIPTURES, according to the words of Jesus Himself, you DO NOT believe Moses and the Prophets.

Simple.

Given the hate speach you have been spewing against Palestinians and Chrisitaity, it is obvious to us you are not a true Torah Jew. You are a Zionist who misuses the Torah for your own purposes. True Torah Jews do not engage in such hate speach and totally denounce Zionism and its hate.

True Torah Jews Against Zionism
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

If you are going to quote the "new testament" to say we Jews no longer have a right to the land then you are proving that G-d is a liar as Jesus went against the Torah so therefore unless G-d changes His mind frequently then Christianity is false. I have stated before that the real messiah will be human, yes, but will not be G-d as G-d cannot be physical nor can He be conceived in any physical form;

That's what YOU say . . now you are sounding like a muslim! That's what the muslims believe and say!

My God is not so incapable as you make Him to be.

G-d cannot feel any pain and His unity is one with no partner or associate thus the trinity goes against what Judaism dictates the messiah will be as Jesus was none of these except that he was a man, although their is a very good probability that he never existed.

Obviously, you don't have much of an idea of what you are talking about at all. The "probably never existed" myth from the past has been very well debunked. No serious scholar still advocates that in any way.

And Jesus is not our G-d as he is not G-d

Jesus IS GOD and He is YOUR God whether you acknowledge Him or not. If you do not acknoweldge Him, it is to your eternal peril.

and in this Christianity is NOT Monotheistic in any way.

Again, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

So if you are using Jesus to say the G-d's promise to us Jews in Israel is illogical because doing so is saying that G-d changed His mind on His promise and sense G-d commanded His creation not take false oaths then saying Jesus is G-d and that he made void that promise is saying that G-d went against is own law which is blasphemous

All this is is one huge Logical Fallacy known as the STRAWMAN . . you invent an argument to replace what I actually argued, then argue against the invention as if you are addressing anything I said, which you aren't.

Your invention is that I said God's promise to Jews is illogical.

I never said that.

I said God's promise of the land to Abraham has been fulfilled and is completed, ended. It was for a time and was conditional, not undending or unconditional.

Ancient Israel failed to meet the conditions, the leaders of Israel denied their God come in the flesh, Jesus. God's ultimate judgment came upon them, and they were destroyed, annihilated, exterminated from the land as God promised in YOUR scriptures. The OLAM of the promise is over. That is not illogical. It is VERY LOGICAL. God's promise came to its LOGICAL CONCLUSION almost 2000 years ago.

You are living in a past that is gone and will never return, and in doing so you continue to perpetuate the grave sin of the ancient Israeli leaders, the denial of YOUR GOD AND MESSIAH JESUS!

Beware of this, for Joshua warned you about denying your God!


.

 

[Tanakh]

As Jesus said, if one will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not believe one who has raised from the dead.

Why would I expect you to believe? You do not believe Moses and the prophets which testified of Him.

This is the CHRISTIAN SECTION of this site. We use THE NEW TESTAMENT. According to OUR SCRIPTURES, you deny the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Jesus, the Messisah.

Thus, according to OUR SCRIPTURES, according to the words of Jesus Himself, you DO NOT believe Moses and the Prophets.

Simple.

Given the hate speach you have been spewing against Palestinians and Chrisitaity, it is obvious to us you are not a true Torah Jew. You are a Zionist who misuses the Torah for your own purposes. True Torah Jews do not engage in such hate speach and totally denounce Zionism and its hate.

True Torah Jews Against Zionism
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/



That's what YOU say . . now you are sounding like a muslim! That's what the muslims believe and say!

My God is not so incapable as you make Him to be.



Obviously, you don't have much of an idea of what you are talking about at all. The "probably never existed" myth from the past has been very well debunked. No serious scholar still advocates that in any way.



Jesus IS GOD and He is YOUR God whether you acknowledge Him or not. If you do not acknoweldge Him, it is to your eternal peril.



Again, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.



All this is is one huge Logical Fallacy known as the STRAWMAN . . you invent an argument to replace what I actually argued, then argue against the invention as if you are addressing anything I said, which you aren't.

Your invention is that I said God's promise to Jews is illogical.

I never said that.

I said God's promise of the land to Abraham has been fulfilled and is completed, ended. It was for a time and was conditional, not undending or unconditional.

Ancient Israel failed to meet the conditions, the leaders of Israel denied their God come in the flesh, Jesus. God's ultimate judgment came upon them, and they were destroyed, annihilated, exterminated from the land as God promised in YOUR scriptures. The OLAM of the promise is over. That is not illogical. It is VERY LOGICAL. God's promise came to its LOGICAL CONCLUSION almost 2000 years ago.

You are living in a past that is gone and will never return, and in doing so you continue to perpetuate the grave sin of the ancient Israeli leaders, the denial of YOUR GOD AND MESSIAH JESUS!

Beware of this, for Joshua warned you about denying your God!


.

Prove to me that the Torah states that Jesus is the messiah. It is nowhere to be found in the Torah as the real messiah has yet to come.

 

[Rion]

Prove to me that the Torah states that Jesus is the messiah.

Incorrect, look to the Prophet Zechariah.

8 " 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

The Messiah will remove sin in a single day, and Joshua is symbolic of things to come... the Messiah.

11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jehozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the LORD, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.'

His name will be Joshua. In Hebrew, that is Yeshua. Jesus. The Christ will be called Jesus. I'm not trying to convince you on that alone, but tell me, if the Anointed came when Daniel said, it would have been around the time of Jesus, and Jesus is the only one who matches the prophecies. If you are a Jew who truly believes that the Messiah is real and not symbolic, there is only one option.

 

[Carey]

Prove to me that the Torah states that Jesus is the messiah. It is nowhere to be found in the Torah as the real messiah has yet to come.

You know that is exactly what the Muslims say too.

 

[Carey]

Prove to me that the Torah states that Jesus is the messiah. It is nowhere to be found in the Torah as the real messiah has yet to come.

You know that is exactly what the Muslims say too.

I hope you and everyone here will like this link

http://www.eagleswings.to/Group/Group.aspx?ID=1000017495