How to choose between creation and evolution.

AV1611VET

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I don't really see it in those terms. It's all natural, but some of it is more sophisticated, works at a higher level of abstraction or emergence.

There are a number of animals that have social rules and hierarchies of various complexity and sophistication, have degrees of cultural transmission, have varying capacities for planning, and so-on. We have these capabilities at a much higher level, but we're at one end of an evolutionary continuum of them. It's hard to see where to draw a line between what might be considered 'natural' and what might not; especially when, as I said, our unconscious drives and predispositions play such a large role in our behaviour.

It's another example of our (understandable) need to divide up a world of continua into distinct categories; unfortunately, it tends to lead to crude stereotypes that are taken to represent the world.
I understand this.

I just find it ironic that we are ALL expected to act like ... well ... to act "civilized."

But when [exceptions?] occur, like Klebold & Harris, people scratch their heads and wonder what went wrong.

If I was an evolutionist, I would say, "Nothing went wrong. Two guys just went rogue ... like an elephant ... and did things reminiscent of our ancestors."
 
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VirOptimus

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I understand this.

I just find it ironic that we are ALL expected to act like ... well ... to act "civilized."

But when [exceptions?] occur, like Klebold & Harris, people scratch their heads and wonder what went wrong.

If I was an evolutionist, I would say, "Nothing went wrong. Two guys just went rogue ... like an elephant ... and did things reminiscent of our ancestors."
Using massmurderers to try to paint you opponents in a bad light is pathetic and in very bad taste.
 
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Speedwell

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I understand this.

I just find it ironic that we are ALL expected to act like ... well ... to act "civilized."

But when [exceptions?] occur, like Klebold & Harris, people scratch their heads and wonder what went wrong.

If I was an evolutionist, I would say, "Nothing went wrong. Two guys just went rogue ... like an elephant ... and did things reminiscent of our ancestors."
You wouldn't be a very good "evolutionist" if you said that. You presume that an "evolutionism" pervades all aspects of the "evolutionists" personal and social life--moral, spiritual, religious. Do you really believe that? Or are you just taking that position to be unpleasant?
 
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AV1611VET

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Using massmurderers to try to paint you opponents in a bad light is pathetic and in very bad taste.
Can you think of a better example of an animal attacking and eliminating another animal?

I'm glad you think it was "pathetic and in very bad taste."

I agree with you.

It should never have happened in the first place.

But it did, and I want to know why.

(For the record, I ... and any child in our church ... know exactly why, but experts would disagree.)
 
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VirOptimus

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Can you think of a better example of an animal attacking and eliminating another animal?

I'm glad you think it was "pathetic and in very bad taste."

I agree with you.

It should never have happened in the first place.

But it did, and I want to know why.

(For the record, I ... and any child in our church ... know exactly why, but experts would disagree.)
I stand by my assesment of your post.

You are just (as usual) trolling.
 
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Speedwell

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That's like saying I wouldn't be a very good Hindu, if I brought up their caste system ... which is a bane to their religion.

Evolutionism has a bane ... a dark side ... as well: fight or flight, survival of the fittest, call it what you will; that they will distance themselves from in a heartbeat -- even to the point of claiming these banes are not a part of their rel ... er ... philosophy.What?
So my claim (and the claim of others like me) to be a Christian is false. Well, we already know you thought that.

What is "an evolutionism."
A typo.

Unfortunately evolutionists won't see it as a "wake-up call" and just go on teaching what they teach.
That a literal and inerrant Genesis is unlikely--which is why you hate them and feel no qualms about maligning and misrepresenting them.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I understand this.

I just find it ironic that we are ALL expected to act like ... well ... to act "civilized."
We have social and cultural norms...

But when [exceptions?] occur, like Klebold & Harris, people scratch their heads and wonder what went wrong.

If I was an evolutionist, I would say, "Nothing went wrong. Two guys just went rogue ... like an elephant ... and did things reminiscent of our ancestors."
Clearly something went very wrong from the point of view of a serious breach of socio-cultural norms, and even in terms of expected 'natural' behaviour; but developments in the brain sciences suggest that behaviour of this kind is a consequence of the influence of particular life experiences on particular genetics.

For example, it's estimated that psychopaths make up around 1% of the population, but folk-psychopathic behaviour is much less common than this; studies have found that an unstable and/or abusive childhood is common to those who behave badly, and a relatively stable and happy childhood is common to those who behave well - and in the conforming individuals, their lack of empathy gives them a distinct advantage in certain careers.

As Sam Harris has pointed out, the more we know about the detailed history of antisocial individuals, the more we discover the impacts of events outside their direct control - as the case of Charles Whitman (the Texas Tower Sniper) shows, physical changes in the brain can have drastic effects on behaviour. So it's clear how much influence changes to the function of body and brain can have on individuals - even in the face of psychological interventions and their rational desires to do otherwise; more common examples are addicts, OCD, the obese, anorexics, phobics, dismorphics, etc.

We also know that life experiences change the way the brain develops and is wired-up; for example, the London cabbies whose brains change as they learn 'The Knowledge'.

So, yeah - something went very wrong when two guys went rogue, but that doesn't mean we just throw up our hands and say, "they were just born evil", or "the devil took them"; it's likely that their incipient problems could have been spotted earlier, and probable that if their life experiences had been more positive overall, they would not have gone rogue.

These developments have interesting implications for the concepts of free will and moral responsibility - it's another situation where the closer you look, the less distinct where to draw the line becomes, or even whether to draw a line at all.
 
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AV1611VET

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So, yeah - something went very wrong when two guys went rogue, but that doesn't mean we just throw up our hands and say, "they were just born evil", or "the devil took them"; it's likely that their incipient problems could have been spotted earlier, and probable that if their life experiences had been more positive overall, they would not have gone rogue.
By any chance, did you see this thread: My Bad Seed Challenge
 
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driewerf

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Why would i ignore some knowledge? If, as you stated in the OP, we have to study with an open mind, then we have to study all available knowledge and not just cherry pick what is suitable for a made opinion.
I meant the knowledge of the concepts of creation and evolution. A blank slate so to speak.
Again, you don't answer why we should do that. Science doesn't start with a blank slate. It builds upon what previous generations of scientists have already gathered. It doesn't start from scratch at each generation.
So why would we ignore the knowledge gathered by evolutionary biologists and just limit ourselves to anatomy?
 
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driewerf

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*waves*
Non-christian evolutionist of 25 years who became a Christian and then a creationist. Trust me we exist.
So you can make a case for creation with hard solid scientifically sound arguments and without any reference to religion?
No argument from ignorance? No appeal to authority?
 
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driewerf

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Religion charges the individual with moral responsibilities that go far beyond the ordinary. :holy:
Tell that to you religious brethren who refuse to take basic measures against the spread of the Corona virus.

woman-wearing-jesus-antivaxx-t-shirt-people-respond-fb33-png__700.jpg


obyt5j2oykk21.jpg


191004_komo_antivax_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Again, you don't answer why we should do that. Science doesn't start with a blank slate. It builds upon what previous generations of scientists have already gathered. It doesn't start from scratch at each generation.
So why would we ignore the knowledge gathered by evolutionary biologists and just limit ourselves to anatomy?

All knowledge starts with a blank slate.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Tell that to you religious brethren who refuse to take basic measures against the spread of the Corona virus.

woman-wearing-jesus-antivaxx-t-shirt-people-respond-fb33-png__700.jpg


obyt5j2oykk21.jpg


191004_komo_antivax_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg

Many Christians are immature spiritually..."babes" in Christ.
 
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driewerf

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All knowledge starts with a blank slate.
Every person starts with a blanke slate at birth. But we have access to the knowledge accumulated by the previous generations. It is unwise to ignore this. It is wise to learn what the previous generations have gathered and to build further upon that. That's how science works.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Every person starts with a blanke slate at birth. But we have access to the knowledge accumulated by the previous generations. It is unwise to ignore this. It is wise to learn what the previous generations have gathered and to build further upon that. That's how science works.

Based on the current state of affairs we haven't learned very much, or something is amiss in our knowledge.
 
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driewerf

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Based on the current state of affairs we haven't learned very much, or something is amiss in our knowledge.
Sure there is a lot we don't know yet. That's why reasearch is still going on. That's why you have sites like ScienceDaily: News, Videos & Articles in Science, Health, Technology & Environment or Breaking Science News | Sci-News.com, where on a regular basis new research, new knowledge is published. Every article published is a little bit of knowledge added to what we already know. Which is an amazing amount.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Sure there is a lot we don't know yet. That's why reasearch is still going on. That's why you have sites like ScienceDaily: News, Videos & Articles in Science, Health, Technology & Environment or Breaking Science News | Sci-News.com, where on a regular basis new research, new knowledge is published. Every article published is a little bit of knowledge added to what we already know. Which is an amazing amount.

This is as applicable today as when first written.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

To review how we are still destroyed just visit prisons, nuthouses, poorhouses, hospitals, etc. We are a mess.

The production of knowledge is out of control, like a runaway train.
 
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