How to choose between creation and evolution.

[AV1611VET]

Sola Scriptura hadn't been invented yet.

Then what's this?

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 

[Speedwell]

Then what's this?

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

It's about something else entirely.

 

[Shemjaza]

It must be nice for French language Evolution/Creation debates to not have the "You're not a monkey, you're an ape."

 

[SelfSim]

Jesus' instruction to His disciples in Matt 28: 19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
-

Ok .. thanks.

Mercenaries Missionaries

State-sanctioned super-spreaders!?

 

[Kylie]

You won't though. Matthew makes that quite clear.

I guarantee you, if it happens, I will.

You seem to think that atheists are going to do whatever it takes to deny God. That simply isn't true. I just want evidence before I'm going to believe, that's all. Most atheists I know would have a similar position. If the evidence is provided, and that evidence withstands testing, then we will accept it.

As I have pointed out before, no one is going to be without excuse -- no one. And therefore I believe they get enough information from the stars (the plan of salvation is in the stars) that they can make the right choice.

Please show me how you can determine Christianity is correct and that Jesus came to Earth from the stars. No Bible use allowed.

What do you think the Great Commission is for?

And how were people from the middle east 2000 years ago meant to reach the isolated tribes in the Amazon rainforest?

 

[Kylie]

I'm not sure of what 'the chances' were that we got it in the first place!? So who knows? (Which I think may reinforce the point of your hypothetical ..)

My position is that the Bible is a collection of stories that were gathered together. Sure, the chances of those particular stories being developed were quite small, but it's like a raffle. If people buy every one of a million tickets, then the odds of any particular ticket being drawn is only one in a million. But it's absolutely guaranteed that SOME ticket will be drawn.

But the chances of the same ticket being drawn a second time if there's a do-over are incredibly small.

Relativity, gravity, electromagnetism were human developed concepts .. (admittedly built on accumulated knowledge which, (somewhat inconsistently), you removed in the hypothetical in which your own mind was still present and still controlling(?)). They then form the basis of our reality. There's no need to believe reality was 'a thing' awaiting 'discovery'. What was happening there is that humans were exploring their own perceptions/observations like: noticing apples always appear to fall downwards .. and then developing explanations which makes sense to us, of that. There is nothing in that which stands independent of our own observations of your 'fabric', (which is yet another physical concept invoked from your own knowledgebase .. yet that was supposed to have been removed?).

No, Relativity, gravity, electromagnetism are ways in which we explain the observed behaviour of the universe. Gravity did not start when Newton first described it. Things had been falling due to gravity just fine for millions of years before he did so.

All of that is beside your point though, (which was nonetheless, one I actually 'warm' to).
My issue is that I don't think the hypothetical was unbiased because you didn't remove the knowledge (ie: your own) which controls the progress of the hypothetical .. and thus biases the conclusion.

I didn't remove the knowledge that controls the progress of the hypothetical...?

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Kylie]

I'm sure that God could repeat his message to mankind.

Quite possible.

If it were to actually happen, it would make me sit up and take notice, and I'd certainly count that as very strong evidence for Christianity.

But unless it happens, it's nothing more than your assurance that it would happen.

 

[AV1611VET]

You seem to think that atheists are going to do whatever it takes to deny God.

That is correct.

That simply isn't true.

The Bible says otherwise.

I just want evidence before I'm going to believe, that's all.

And I'm Genghis Khan.

Over time, I have provided some eleven different categories of physical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, only to have it handwaved away by those invoking the same kind of evidence (cause and effect) for fallen angels.

When people have to stoop to call on fallen angels to show God doesn't exist, I'd say that's pretty desperate in my opinion.

That's why I believe atheists will do anything ... absolutely anything ... to keep from having to believe.

They run from God, right into the realm of fallen angels to make a point, and don't even realize they're doing it.

 

[SelfSim]

@Kylie:

I'd love to hammer out the inconsistencies of your above response with you sometime .. but it goes way beyond the focus of this thread.

If you're willing, (and out of respect), I'm content to 'park it' and suspend that discussion for the time being(?)

 

[coffee4u]

Great. Point me to the people who came to the conclusion of creationism without an apriori religious belief. I'll wait.

*waves*
Non-christian evolutionist of 25 years who became a Christian and then a creationist. Trust me we exist.

 

[SelfSim]

*waves*
Non-christian evolutionist ..

an 'Evolutionist' is religious ..

ETA: Rather an 'Evolutionist' is someone who has turned the ToE into a religion by believing in it!

 

[Kylie]

That is correct.

Then you are wrong.

The Bible says otherwise.

And you think it's better to get your information about reality from an old book rather than reality itself?

And I'm Genghis Khan.

And another claim which, without evidence, can be safely ignored.

Over time, I have provided some eleven different categories of physical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, only to have it handwaved away by those invoking the same kind of evidence (cause and effect) for fallen angels.

And how much of that evidence could withstand scrutiny?

When people have to stoop to call on fallen angels to show God doesn't exist, I'd say that's pretty desperate in my opinion.

Of course, if God doesn't exist, then neither do these fallen angels you speak of, so these people couldn't possibly have called on them.

That's why I believe atheists will do anything ... absolutely anything ... to keep from having to believe.

Well, we can't let reality get in the way of what you wish to believe, can we?

They run from God, right into the realm of fallen angels to make a point, and don't even realize they're doing it.

Or maybe they are doing no such thing, but you are forced to believe they are because that's the only way you can hold to your position...

 

[Kylie]

@Kylie:

I'd love to hammer out the inconsistencies of your above response with you sometime .. but it goes way beyond the focus of this thread.

If you're willing, (and out of respect), I'm content to 'park it' and suspend that discussion for the time being(?)

Please feel free to open a new thread specifically to present your concerns. If you provide a link, I'll be sure to go and post in that thread.

 

[coffee4u]

an 'Evolutionist' is religious ..

ETA: Rather an 'Evolutionist' is someone who has turned the ToE into a religion by believing in it!

No, I wasn't religious at all unless you mean 'had a foggy notion that God probably existed'
But call it whatever you like. I wasn't a Christian which is the same end result whichever way you cut it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

State-sanctioned super-spreaders!?

I was thinking, 'Mercenaries: guns for hire purposes, Missionaries: nuns for higher purposes'

 

[Speedwell]

No, I wasn't religious at all unless you mean 'had a foggy notion that God probably existed'
But call it whatever you like. I wasn't a Christian which is the same end result whichever way you cut it.

I think it depends on which denomination of Christianity a person is evangelized by. If it's a conservative Evangelical Protestant sect then one will probably become a creationist.

 

[AV1611VET]

I was thinking, 'Mercenaries: guns for hire purposes, Missionaries: nuns for higher purposes'

Then unbelievers wonder why they don't understand anything.

Some work very hard to create a mental-block that will insure they stay in the dark on theological matters.

 

[VirOptimus]

-snip-.

Some work very hard to create a mental-block that will insure they stay in the dark on theological matters.

.... oh the irony!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Then unbelievers wonder why they don't understand anything.

Some work very hard to create a mental-block that will insure they stay in the dark on theological matters.

You missed the point of the post.

 

[AV1611VET]

You missed the point of the post.

Meaning I should accept the mercenary-missionary ridicule?

God says of His missionaries ...

Hebrews 11:38a ( Of whom the world was not worthy: )

And to equate them with mercenaries is a cheap shot that will backfire and create a mental block.