How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Mark Quayle]

Try to find out what that means.
I'm not here to teach anyone.

We are only responsible for our own sins.
Have you asked forgiveness for your father's yet.

Do you realize that scripture has to make sense?

The need to "make scripture make sense" is one significant cause for eisegesis. Just saying...

You could drop the condescension; it would maybe make me more inclined to take you seriously.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Don't know about your king analogy. I think God needs to foreknow our libertarian free will choices to make His decrees come to pass. I think He is using foreknowlege to decree things.

And no, God doesn't need to look into the future to know our libertarian free will choices.

I mentioned 'looking into the future' to make the point, that you and apparently most people on this thread and so many others seem to think, that God reacts to what we do in order to establish policy or something. To me that's just about the most coherent way I can see to put the notion. To me it is ludicrous to suppose that God decides what is going to happen, as a result of what is going to happen. His decision is meaningless in that structure.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The need to "make scripture make sense" is one significant cause for eisegesis. Just saying...

You could drop the condescension; it would maybe make me more inclined to take you seriously.

No Mark,
Scripture has to make sense because if it doesn't we cannot rely on it.
And as to condescension --- I think it's more condescending if I believe I could teach you something or other.
I know that I can't...but it would be nice to understand that two conflicting scriptures MUST be reconciled.

You posted:
Numbers 14:18
18The Lord is slow to anger and filled with unfailing love, forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion. But He does not excuse the guilty. He lays the sins of the parents upon their children, the entire family is affected - even children in the third and fourth generation.

19In keeping with your magnificent unfailing love, please pardon the sins of this people, just as you have forgiven them ever since they left Egypt.


Now let's find out what it means:


Now what does the history of Israel demonstrate? It demonstrates that when God deals with Israel, He deals with them as a nation. When the fathers, the ones in control, the adults are bad, everybody gets the punishment. It’s not because the children are singled out to be punished for the sins of the father. In fact, there’s an entire chapter, Ezekiel 18, one whole chapter that is meant to repudiate that concept.

The way the chapter starts is, “You have a saying, ‘The fathers eat the sour grapes, but the children’s teeth are set on edge.’” Do you see the play on words here? The fathers do it, but the children get the result. God says to quit saying that thing because I’m not going to punish the kids for what the parents do wrong.

That’s different, I think, from dealing with the nation as a whole. When the nation as a whole is rebellious and idolatrous, which is what the Exodus passage is about, God punishes the nation.

Even though Elijah found out there were still 5,000 people who had not bent their knee to Baal, still the nation was a nation of Baal-worshipers so they were punished by God as a nation. The kids got it just like the parents. As long as the group as a whole continued in that, God would punish them. And He did until you got a king and a people that reformed the nation. Then God blesses them. There were reformers like Hezekiah and Manasseh, later in his life. There were these times when this happened. Then God’s lovingkindness was abundant.

In Exodus, God is talking about how He’s going to deal with the nation. After all, this is the Mosaic Covenant with the nation of Israel, so He’s setting up the blessings and curses for the nation as a whole based on how they keep up their end of the covenant. They should not be idolatrous because He’s a jealous God, and if they’re idolatrous they’re going to be punished. And this is the way He characterizes the consequences, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” If you keep hating me, I’ll keep punishing you for it.

However, He will show lovingkindness to thousands to those who love Him and keep His commandments. He’s emphasizing His long suffering and His mercy over and against His justice and wrath.

source: Does “God Visit the Iniquities of the Fathers” on the “Third & Fourth Generations”?


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What "Sins of the Father" Does NOT Mean​

The phrase, unexamined, has led some to foolishly charge the Almighty with a capricious nature. Some might even be led to think that a philosophy of determinism is evident in the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth. God does not will suffering upon human beings. God is just and righteous in all of his ways. Determinism is a pagan philosophy. Such a view of God and His universe has nothing to do with the doctrine of predestination or the sovereignty of God.

God is completely free to govern his universe. There is nothing that is outside of his sovereign will. But God grants free agency to his creatures. We are moral beings given choices to make. It is our nature that is bound in sin. One whose disposition is sinful will, quite naturally, follow the “north star” of such a nature. Conversely, one who has been redeemed from sin by the grace of God in His Son our Savior Jesus Christ has the opportunity to choose what is good and what is right.

It is important to remember these overlapping doctrinal truths, and to compare Scripture with Scripture as we think about this passage in its meaning.

What "Sins of the Father" DOES Mean​

There are three responses we might have from the Scriptures that are given.

The phrase, “the sins of the father," as they occur in the Decalogue in Exodus and Deuteronomy remind us that God's law has been established with blessings, as well as judgment. It is a serious matter, indeed, to have one's life characterized by the violation of God's laws. One cannot live in violation of God’s commandments and expect those closest to him to experience no effect from his sin. This reality should stir us to fidelity to God’s word. We should also recognize our need of a Savior and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ. A person who has lived in sin all their lives can have a powerful influence on the next generation by the confession of faith in Jesus Christ. Even when such a confession comes after one has lived an entire life of willful disobedience to God's law, some consequences will naturally follow, but the legacy will not be of sin. The legacy of anyone who turns to Jesus Christ is the legacy of the power of the cross of Christ.

source: What Are "Sins of the Father"? Understanding Generational Consequences

 

[friend of]

Okay, this is the conclusion I've come to recently regarding Calvinism and why I cannot fully ascribe to it. If humans have no free will like some (many?) Calvinists posit, then this would make God responsible for all of our sins, since He is absolutley Sovereign over every atom of minutiae in this universe. If God is a sinner, then He is not God, because God does not contradict Himself.

 

[GodsGrace101]

My point is that, contrary to your assertion, sin is imputed to us, per Ro 5:12-15.

Good question. . .Paul is demonstrating that since,
where there is no law there is no sin, yet
all those born of Adam between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to sin against,
died anyway. . .it was because the sin of Adam was imputed to them (they were made sinners, Ro 5:19)
and which Ro 5:14 states is the pattern of Christ. . .
of Christ's righteousness likewise being imputed (they were made righteous) to all those born of Christ (Ro 4:1-11, Ro 5:19).

Ro 5:19 parallels the contrasting imputations of both sin and righteousness.

So if a 1 month old baby dies, he goes to hell?
(since he was born with sin and cannot confess it as yet)

 

[GodsGrace101]

At first read what you wrote here made no sense to me. At second read, I started to understand: You think God does whatever he does as a result of what we do. You assume that if God doesn't tell us how he picks then we have to make a guess how to get picked. You assume getting picked is OUR responsibility! It is not.

Then, since none of us earned salvation, why must we do something to get picked? God doesn't walk into the SPCH, to adopt us.

Your whole post is incomprehensible to me, except in small unrelated doses, unless I consider that you assume we must put ourselves in the way of the juggernaut of God's salvation (or something). You actually think that in the end, our salvation is our responsibility.

Please don't tell me what I think.
If you don't understand something, just ask.
What you've stated above is nonsense.
Please don't ascribe nonsense to me.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Okay, this is the conclusion I've come to recently regarding Calvinism and why I cannot fully ascribe to it. If humans have no free will like some (many?) Calvinists posit, then this would make God responsible for all of our sins, since He is absolutley Sovereign over every atom of minutiae in this universe. If God is a sinner, then He is not God, because God does not contradict Himself.

AMEN to that !

 

[GodsGrace101]

@J Mick I hope you can recognize bias when you see it. Read with a strong dose of skepticism

Are you reformed or not?
What do you disagree with as to what I posted?
This is what calvinists believe...
At least admit you're a calvinist.

 

[GodsGrace101]

And so, you have whereof to boast.

Mark,
you should quit worrying about boasting and learn about the ONE, TRUE GOD that is biblical.

I'm sure you know of
Ephesians 2:8-9
8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Grace, Faith and Salvation are gifts.
SO WHERE IS THE BOASTING?

Matthew 6:1
1“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “

James 3:5
5So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire!

And, regarding boasting, I'd like to say this:

Who is boasting more?
A person that knows they're a sinner and turns to God for forgiveness and thanks God every day for Christ's sacrifice.

or

A person who believes God chose HIM, out of all the persons on earth, he is one of the chosen ones.


I'd say it's the 2nd person.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Read my response again. . .you are "misunderstanding" it. . .again.

Maybe you could explain yourself better.

You said that God only knows what HE is going to do.
You could correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Clare73]

Maybe you could explain yourself better.

You said that God only knows what HE is going to do.
You could correct me if I'm wrong.

It's about how a word is used in the NT.

My statement is about, and limited to, the meaning of "divine foreknowledge" (prognosis) as it is used in the NT.

God knows everything, he is omniscient.

However, when the NT uses the word prognosis, it is referring only to one thing, God's foreknowledge of what he is going to do.

It does not refer to his knowing what man is going to do, which is not to say that he does not know all things, but that the use of prognosis is not referring to that.

That being the case, there is no NT basis for maintaining that God's foreknowledge as used in the NT is of what man is going to do, and then maintaining that such "foreknowledge" is the basis for God's decisions regarding man, when there is no foreknowledge by God of man's decisions presented in the NT.
The NT treats of God's foreknowledge (prognosis) only as relating to his own actions, and we are not at liberty to assume its usage means anything other than that for the purposes of our own theology.

 

[GodsGrace101]

My point is that, contrary to your assertion, sin is imputed to us, per Ro 5:12-15.

Good question. . .Paul is demonstrating that since,
where there is no law there is no sin, yet
all those born of Adam between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to sin against,
died anyway. . .it was because the sin of Adam was imputed to them (they were made sinners, Ro 5:19)
and which Ro 5:14 states is the pattern of Christ. . .
of Christ's righteousness likewise being imputed (they were made righteous) to all those born of Christ (Ro 4:1-11, Ro 5:19).

Ro 5:19 parallels the contrasting imputations of both sin and righteousness.

How does Romans 5:12-15 state that sin is IMPUTED to us?
Where exactly does it state that?

What it does state is that, due to Adam's fall, we have all become sinners.
This means that we sin.
It does NOT mean that we are imputed with Adam's sin.
He sinned....not each one of us individually.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's about how a word is used in the NT.

My statement is about, and limited to, the meaning of "divine foreknowledge" (prognosis) as it is used in the NT.

God knows everything, he is omniscient.

However, when the NT uses the word prognosis, it is referring only to one thing, God's foreknowledge of what he is going to do.

It does not refer to his knowing what man is going to do, which is not to say that he does not know all things, but that the use of prognosis is not referring to that..

I see what you mean.
But what verse are you speaking of?
How could it mean something other than what it means???

Prognosis​

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• Proginosko
• Progonos

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4268 Browse Lexicon​ Original Word Word Origin prognosiß from (4267) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Prognosis 1:715,119 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech prog'-no-sis Noun Feminine Definition foreknowledge forethought, pre-arrangement

 

[GodsGrace101]

@Clare73

Must leave for a while.
Please reply as to prognosis.
Have never heard of this before.
Thanks.

 

[Clare73]

@Clare73

Must leave for a while.
Please reply as to prognosis.
Have never heard of this before.
Thanks.

Post #1471 being the case, there is no NT basis for maintaining that God's foreknowledge as used in the NT is of what man is going to do, and then maintaining that such "foreknowledge" is the basis for God's decisions regarding man, when there is no foreknowledge by God of man's decisions presented in the NT.
The NT treats of God's foreknowledge (prognosis) only as relating to his own actions, and we are not at liberty to assume its usage means anything other than that for the purposes of our own theology.

 

[Clare73]

How does Romans 5:12-15 state that sin is IMPUTED to us?
Where exactly does it state that?

Explained in post #1472.

Please exegete Ro 5:12-15, being true to its words and consistent with Paul's argument there.
Then we will have a basis for discussion

What it does state is that, due to Adam's fall, we have all become sinners.
This means that we sin.

This means that we are held guilty of sin.

There was no sin between Adam and Moses, because there was no law to sin against.
But they all died because of their guilt of sin.
Of what sin were the guilty?

It does NOT mean that we are imputed with Adam's sin.
He sinned....not each one of us individually.

Of what sin were they guilty between Adam and Moses when there was no sin because there was no law to sin against?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No Mark,
Scripture has to make sense because if it doesn't we cannot rely on it.
And as to condescension --- I think it's more condescending if I believe I could teach you something or other.
I know that I can't...but it would be nice to understand that two conflicting scriptures MUST be reconciled.

You posted:
Numbers 14:18
18The Lord is slow to anger and filled with unfailing love, forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion. But He does not excuse the guilty. He lays the sins of the parents upon their children, the entire family is affected - even children in the third and fourth generation.

19In keeping with your magnificent unfailing love, please pardon the sins of this people, just as you have forgiven them ever since they left Egypt.


Now let's find out what it means:


Now what does the history of Israel demonstrate? It demonstrates that when God deals with Israel, He deals with them as a nation. When the fathers, the ones in control, the adults are bad, everybody gets the punishment. It’s not because the children are singled out to be punished for the sins of the father. In fact, there’s an entire chapter, Ezekiel 18, one whole chapter that is meant to repudiate that concept.

The way the chapter starts is, “You have a saying, ‘The fathers eat the sour grapes, but the children’s teeth are set on edge.’” Do you see the play on words here? The fathers do it, but the children get the result. God says to quit saying that thing because I’m not going to punish the kids for what the parents do wrong.

That’s different, I think, from dealing with the nation as a whole. When the nation as a whole is rebellious and idolatrous, which is what the Exodus passage is about, God punishes the nation.

Even though Elijah found out there were still 5,000 people who had not bent their knee to Baal, still the nation was a nation of Baal-worshipers so they were punished by God as a nation. The kids got it just like the parents. As long as the group as a whole continued in that, God would punish them. And He did until you got a king and a people that reformed the nation. Then God blesses them. There were reformers like Hezekiah and Manasseh, later in his life. There were these times when this happened. Then God’s lovingkindness was abundant.

In Exodus, God is talking about how He’s going to deal with the nation. After all, this is the Mosaic Covenant with the nation of Israel, so He’s setting up the blessings and curses for the nation as a whole based on how they keep up their end of the covenant. They should not be idolatrous because He’s a jealous God, and if they’re idolatrous they’re going to be punished. And this is the way He characterizes the consequences, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” If you keep hating me, I’ll keep punishing you for it.

However, He will show lovingkindness to thousands to those who love Him and keep His commandments. He’s emphasizing His long suffering and His mercy over and against His justice and wrath.

source: Does “God Visit the Iniquities of the Fathers” on the “Third & Fourth Generations”?


]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

What "Sins of the Father" Does NOT Mean​

The phrase, unexamined, has led some to foolishly charge the Almighty with a capricious nature. Some might even be led to think that a philosophy of determinism is evident in the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth. God does not will suffering upon human beings. God is just and righteous in all of his ways. Determinism is a pagan philosophy. Such a view of God and His universe has nothing to do with the doctrine of predestination or the sovereignty of God.

God is completely free to govern his universe. There is nothing that is outside of his sovereign will. But God grants free agency to his creatures. We are moral beings given choices to make. It is our nature that is bound in sin. One whose disposition is sinful will, quite naturally, follow the “north star” of such a nature. Conversely, one who has been redeemed from sin by the grace of God in His Son our Savior Jesus Christ has the opportunity to choose what is good and what is right.

It is important to remember these overlapping doctrinal truths, and to compare Scripture with Scripture as we think about this passage in its meaning.

What "Sins of the Father" DOES Mean​

There are three responses we might have from the Scriptures that are given.

The phrase, “the sins of the father," as they occur in the Decalogue in Exodus and Deuteronomy remind us that God's law has been established with blessings, as well as judgment. It is a serious matter, indeed, to have one's life characterized by the violation of God's laws. One cannot live in violation of God’s commandments and expect those closest to him to experience no effect from his sin. This reality should stir us to fidelity to God’s word. We should also recognize our need of a Savior and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ. A person who has lived in sin all their lives can have a powerful influence on the next generation by the confession of faith in Jesus Christ. Even when such a confession comes after one has lived an entire life of willful disobedience to God's law, some consequences will naturally follow, but the legacy will not be of sin. The legacy of anyone who turns to Jesus Christ is the legacy of the power of the cross of Christ.

source: What Are "Sins of the Father"? Understanding Generational Consequences

Very good! FWIW, I didn't say they are unreconcilable. In fact, I insist that they do not conflict! Nothing in Scripture conflicts with anything else in scripture.

What I tried to indicate is that to assume that we are able to reconcile them, can lead to incorrect conclusions in the attempt to reconcile them prematurely. Being the humans we are, and bound by our time-dependent ignorance (not to mention many other things accompanying our temporal state, such as self-importance and the ironic penchant for self-determination in our POV), pretty much makes us wrong in some regard, even if we can reconcile them in our own minds. We love to jump to conclusions —specially if WE are the ones who came up with the conclusion. And, yes, this includes me.

Sorry if my comments misled you. It was not intentional, though I did want to see your answer, so thanks for taking the time to answer.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Please don't tell me what I think.
If you don't understand something, just ask.
What you've stated above is nonsense.
Please don't ascribe nonsense to me.
Thanks.

If you don't wish to answer what looks to you like nonsense, I can understand that. But it seems you took it more as insult than nonsense. Just saying...

So, what is your point of view? Is God's Grace comprehensive, or do we add to God's Grace by our faith? Is our faith something we produce, or is it produced by the indwelling Spirit of God? Always a 'cooperative' effort? Or are we In Him, he living within us?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark,
you should quit worrying about boasting and learn about the ONE, TRUE GOD that is biblical.

I'm sure you know of
Ephesians 2:8-9
8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Grace, Faith and Salvation are gifts.
SO WHERE IS THE BOASTING?

Matthew 6:1
1“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “

James 3:5
5So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire!

And, regarding boasting, I'd like to say this:

Who is boasting more?
A person that knows they're a sinner and turns to God for forgiveness and thanks God every day for Christ's sacrifice.

or

A person who believes God chose HIM, out of all the persons on earth, he is one of the chosen ones.


I'd say it's the 2nd person.

And here on this site repeatedly I've been told I have no reason for assurance of my salvation due to my theology. Oh, well...

 

[zoidar]

I mentioned 'looking into the future' to make the point, that you and apparently most people on this thread and so many others seem to think, that God reacts to what we do in order to establish policy or something. To me that's just about the most coherent way I can see to put the notion. To me it is ludicrous to suppose that God decides what is going to happen, as a result of what is going to happen. His decision is meaningless in that structure.

When it comes to foreknowledge and predestination, I don't think we can know how it works for sure. You have a theory that you find works. Sure it might work, but that doesn't make it true. I'm leaving it as a mystery, and I don't need to or think I can know the "how". But I do think free libertarian will is involved, but also God's decree. I think they can coexist.